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Lisp Users ( comp.org.lisp-users )
From miller@cs.rochester.edu Mon Oct 18 16:34:23 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: miller@cs.rochester.edu (Brad Miller)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: RFD: comp.org.lisp-users and comp.std.lisp
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 18 Oct 1993 16:03:31 -0400
Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Dept
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This is a formal Request for Discussion for the creation of two newsgroups:
***Proposed Names: Proposed Moderation: Proposed Moderator:
comp.org.lisp-users No
comp.std.lisp Yes miller@cs.rochester.edu
***Charter:
comp.org.lisp-users
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users (ALU)
(including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership issues,
future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues. Overlap with
comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-posted to should be
minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical, but an organizational
group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally gatewayed into this
newsgroup.
PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is
welcome to post (appropriate messages).
comp.std.lisp
(also see below) This moderated (sub)group is intended to foster focused
discussion on user-group supported standards that are not addressed in the
(almost final) ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to
the group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator will
periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals, open and close
discussions on new standards, and call for specific technical experts to
take charge of each standard (for surveying existing practice, proposing,
incorporating changes, and wording the final version). The moderator will
be reponsible for recording all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning
identifiers and submitting copies to all interested vendors. The intent is
to give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included in
the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to) DEFSYSTEM,
Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.
Note that ALU board member Brad Miller (miller@cs.rochester.edu) volunteered
at the LUV '93 conference to moderate such a newsgroup, and act as the ALU
"de facto" standards coordinator for the vendor and user community.
PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is welcome
to post (appropriate messages).
*** Reasoning behind this RFD
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association of
Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products. As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership of
ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to promote
the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU (open)
board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a newsgroup in
the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals of
disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties, have
a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties interested in
lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future conferences and a
possible periodical take place. The newsgroup will also cut down the
number of addresses on the direct ALU list, which should ease support
chores on that list as well. Futhermore the common-lisp mailing list is
designed for technical, rather than evangelical discussions; furthermore
the ALU does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of
lisp like languages.
The other major discussion at that point was on how to get the various
vendors of lisp products to merge their incompatible definitions of several
common features, namely DEFSYSTEM, foreign function interface, and
multiprocessing. The vendors suggested that feedback from the user group
would be welcome, and it was clear that only through user pressure would the
vendors be inclined to improve the existing situation (which for those of us
who maintain "portable" software that needs to work under several vendors
offerings know is quite painful). At that time, I volunteered to coordinate
such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards creation for the ALU,
though commentary would be open to all interested parties.
comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve into
some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific features
(in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they already support).
Note that this is in response to vendor wishes: they want more feedback from
the user community; this is one way of providing it, with the ALU representing
the users.
Some of the standards developed will be considered optional: in general, the
standards so developed will not necessitate vendors to implement features
they do not wish to support (e.g. version control under defsystem), but
rather be a request that if they do support such a feature, that the ALU
standard be one of the ways of accessing it. (So, e.g. Franz would be free
to not support version control at all, or support their own, presumably
better implementation, but in the latter case should also support the ALU
standard for version control under defsystem).
While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups.
*** Procedure:
Any discussion should be kept in news.groups; and should
include ALU somewhere in the title.
By 12 November, if interest warrants, a CFV will be initiated by
miller@cs.rochester.edu, and will be conducted by an impartial third
party.
This article is being mailed to the following lists in addition its
posting to the newsgroups listed in the Newsgroups: header above.
slug@ai.sri.com
clim@bbn.com
common-lisp@ai.sri.com
allegro-cl@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Thanks for your interest and consideration,
Brad Miller, for the ALU, miller@cs.rochester.edu
From miller@cs.rochester.edu Wed Nov 3 13:28:14 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: miller@cs.rochester.edu (Brad Miller)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: 2nd RFD: comp.org.lisp-users and comp.std.lisp
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 2 Nov 1993 13:55:52 -0500
Organization: University of Rochester
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4230 news.groups:86560 comp.lang.lisp:11218 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3767 comp.lang.lisp.x:1094 comp.lang.lisp.franz:276 comp.lang.scheme:7856 comp.lang.clos:2168 comp.lang.dylan:1342 comp.std.misc:876
*****************************************************************
This is the second (of two) formal Request for Discussion for the
creation of two newsgroups:
Please see *** Proceedure below, to respond to this RfD, or to
encourage a vote.
(the text below has been changed slightly, see last sentence before
"*** Proceedure", and text after that heading)
****************************************************************
***Proposed Names: Proposed Moderation: Proposed Moderator:
comp.org.lisp-users No
comp.std.lisp Yes miller@cs.rochester.edu
***Charter:
comp.org.lisp-users
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users (ALU)
(including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership issues,
future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues. Overlap with
comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-posted to should be
minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical, but an organizational
group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally gatewayed into this
newsgroup.
PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is
welcome to post (appropriate messages).
comp.std.lisp
(also see below) This moderated (sub)group is intended to foster focused
discussion on user-group supported standards that are not addressed by
formal standards, e.g. in the (almost final) ANSI Common Lisp. It will be
moderated for appropriateness to the group and timeliness, and not for
technical content; the moderator will periodically post the status of all
ALU standard proposals, open and close discussions on new standards, and
call for specific technical experts to take charge of each standard (for
surveying existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version). The moderator will be reponsible for recording all
finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and submitting copies
to all interested vendors. The intent is to give feedback to the several
LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible support of various features that
have developed too late to be included in the work of ANSI committee X3J13,
such as (but not limited to) DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and
Multiprocessing.
Note that ALU board member Brad Miller (miller@cs.rochester.edu) volunteered
at the LUV '93 conference to moderate such a newsgroup, and act as the ALU
"de facto" standards coordinator for the vendor and user community.
PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is welcome
to post (appropriate messages).
*** Reasoning behind this RFD
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association of
Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products. As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership of
ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to promote
the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU (open)
board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a newsgroup in
the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals of
disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties, have
a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties interested in
lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future conferences and a
possible periodical take place. The newsgroup will also cut down the
number of addresses on the direct ALU list, which should ease support
chores on that list as well. Futhermore the common-lisp mailing list is
designed for technical, rather than evangelical discussions; furthermore
the ALU does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of
lisp like languages.
The other major discussion at that point was on how to get the various
vendors of lisp products to merge their incompatible definitions of several
common features, namely DEFSYSTEM, foreign function interface, and
multiprocessing. The vendors suggested that feedback from the user group
would be welcome, and it was clear that only through user pressure would the
vendors be inclined to improve the existing situation (which for those of us
who maintain "portable" software that needs to work under several vendors
offerings know is quite painful). At that time, I volunteered to coordinate
such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards creation for the ALU,
though commentary would be open to all interested parties.
comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve into
some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific features
(in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they already support).
Note that this is in response to vendor wishes: they want more feedback from
the user community; this is one way of providing it, with the ALU representing
the users.
Some of the standards developed will be considered optional: in general, the
standards so developed will not necessitate vendors to implement features
they do not wish to support (e.g. version control under defsystem), but
rather be a request that if they do support such a feature, that the ALU
standard be one of the ways of accessing it. (So, e.g. Franz would be free
to not support version control at all, or support their own, presumably
better implementation, but in the latter case should also support the ALU
standard for version control under defsystem).
While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).
*** Procedure:
Any discussion should be kept in news.groups; and should
include ALU or Lisp somewhere in the title.
By 12 November 93, if interest warrants, a CFV will be initiated by
miller@cs.rochester.edu, and will be conducted by an impartial third party.
Please send me private email (or post something to news.groups) if you would
definitely vote FOR or AGAINST this proposal (if against, I'd like to know
why, feel free to post to news.groups as well); I will only go through the
CFV stage if it looks like success (100 more yes votes than no; 2/3
majority) is probable.
Thanks for your interest and consideration,
Brad Miller, for the ALU, miller@cs.rochester.edu
[note: first RFD was also mailed to a number of mailing lists, this second
RFD has not been]
--
---- Brad Miller miller@cs.rochester.edu
Disclaimer: I disavow any support, or consent for the actions
or existance of any so called government entity.
From jan@bagend.atl.ga.us Tue Nov 16 16:42:16 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: jan@bagend.atl.ga.us (Jan Isley)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: CFV: comp.std.lisp moderated and comp.org.lisp-users
Followup-To: poster
Date: 16 Nov 1993 14:20:19 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 174
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Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Expires: 8 Dec 1993 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <2cb95jINNo0l@rodan.UU.NET>
Reply-To: usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu (Jan Isley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4282 news.groups:87878 comp.lang.lisp:11301 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3849 comp.lang.lisp.x:1105 comp.lang.lisp.franz:281 comp.lang.scheme:7955 comp.lang.clos:2190 comp.lang.dylan:1392 comp.std.misc:889
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
This is the first of two Call For Votes (CFV) regarding the proposed
creation of two new newsgroups. Please read the proposals before voting.
Detailed instructions for voting are given below.
Unmoderated group: comp.org.lisp-users
Moderated group: comp.std.lisp (moderated)
Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)
moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 7 December 1993.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <jan@bagend.atl.ga.us>.
Votes should be mailed to usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu.
All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>.
All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>.
The CFV will be sent to the following mailing lists:
allegro-cl@ucbvax.berkeley.edu alu-board@ai.sri.com
common-lisp@ai.sri.com slug@ai.sri.com
CHARTERS
comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g. that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version). The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
Moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
Submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
RATIONALE
comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association
of Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products. As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership
of ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to
promote the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU
(open) board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a
newsgroup in the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals
of disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties,
have a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties
interested in lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future
conferences and a possible periodical take place. Furthermore the ALU
does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of lisp
like languages.
comp.std.lisp
-------------
At LUV-93 it was clear from the common lisp vendors that they would not
be investing substantial amounts of effort in attempting to make their
products compatible with each-other without some firm guidance and
commitment from their users. We felt that the ALU, by providing a forum
to define such "de facto" standards, could help the user community
better coordinate on cohesive needs, and thus provide a "single voice"
to the vendors for important (compatibility related) standards issues.
By opening up the discussion to the public via this newsgroup, we hope
to better represent real-world users, not just the "academic" few who
usually participate in standards adventures. At that time, I volunteered
to coordinate such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards
creation for the ALU, though commentary would be open to all interested
parties. comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve
into some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific
features (in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they
already support).
While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).
VOTING INSTRUCTIONS
Mail votes to: usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu
(R)eplying to this message should address your vote correctly if
you are replying to this message in its originally posted form in
a newsgroup or mailing list, and your news reader or mail user
agent honors the Reply-To: header. Posted votes or votes mailed to
any other address do not count.
Valid votes are YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL. Case is not important.
If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program. ABSTAIN votes do not affect the vote outcome. If your mail
software does not include your name, include it in the ballot on the
line provided.
If you change your mind, revote. Only the last vote will count.
You should receive a personal acknowledgment of your vote by email
within a few days. Invalid votes and bounced acknowledgments will
be identified in the second (the last) call for votes. Addresses
and votes of all voters will be published in the vote results. If
you wish to remove your vote and all indication that you have voted
>from the final list, send a vote with CANCEL in each voting position.
Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person, etc...
100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are
the requirements for group creation. Read news.announce.newusers
and news.groups for more information on the group creation process.
QUICK AND EASY INSTRUCTIONS!
* Use the ballot.
* Include your name on the line provided.
* Indicate either YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL for each group.
* Check the address again <usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu>
* Mail only the ballot and delete all other text.
-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-
lisp groups Ballot [lisp-01]
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
------------------
[ ] comp.org.lisp-users
[ ] comp.std.lisp
-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-
--
Jan Isley, the Knight who says ACK, can be reached at
jan@bagend.atl.ga.us or mathcs.emory.edu!bagend!jan
From jan@bagend.atl.ga.us Thu Dec 2 01:53:32 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: jan@bagend.atl.ga.us (Jan Isley)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.std.lisp moderated and comp.org.lisp-users
Supersedes: <2cb95jINNo0l@rodan.UU.NET>
Followup-To: poster
Date: 1 Dec 1993 15:09:50 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 177
Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Expires: 8 Dec 1993 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <lisp-groups-CFV2@uunet.uu.net>
References: <2cb95jINNo0l@rodan.UU.NET>
Reply-To: usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu (Jan Isley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4357 news.groups:89153 comp.lang.lisp:11378 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3936 comp.lang.lisp.x:1115 comp.lang.lisp.franz:284 comp.lang.scheme:8053 comp.lang.clos:2198 comp.lang.dylan:1424 comp.std.misc:897
LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
This is the last of two Call For Votes (CFV) regarding the proposed
creation of two new newsgroups. Please read the proposals before voting.
Detailed instructions for voting are given below.
Unmoderated group: comp.org.lisp-users
Moderated group: comp.std.lisp (moderated)
Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)
moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 7 December 1993.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <jan@bagend.atl.ga.us>.
Votes should be mailed to usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu.
All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>.
All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>.
The CFV will be sent to the following mailing lists:
allegro-cl@ucbvax.berkeley.edu alu-board@ai.sri.com
common-lisp@ai.sri.com slug@ai.sri.com
CHARTERS
comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g. that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version). The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
Moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
Submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
RATIONALE
comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association
of Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products. As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership
of ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to
promote the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU
(open) board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a
newsgroup in the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals
of disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties,
have a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties
interested in lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future
conferences and a possible periodical take place. Furthermore the ALU
does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of lisp
like languages.
comp.std.lisp
-------------
At LUV-93 it was clear from the common lisp vendors that they would not
be investing substantial amounts of effort in attempting to make their
products compatible with each-other without some firm guidance and
commitment from their users. We felt that the ALU, by providing a forum
to define such "de facto" standards, could help the user community
better coordinate on cohesive needs, and thus provide a "single voice"
to the vendors for important (compatibility related) standards issues.
By opening up the discussion to the public via this newsgroup, we hope
to better represent real-world users, not just the "academic" few who
usually participate in standards adventures. At that time, I volunteered
to coordinate such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards
creation for the ALU, though commentary would be open to all interested
parties. comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve
into some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific
features (in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they
already support).
While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).
VOTING INSTRUCTIONS
Mail votes to: usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu
(R)eplying to this message should address your vote correctly if
you are replying to this message in its originally posted form in
a newsgroup or mailing list, and your news reader or mail user
agent honors the Reply-To: header. Posted votes or votes mailed to
any other address do not count.
Valid votes are YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL. Case is not important.
If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program. ABSTAIN votes do not affect the vote outcome. If your mail
software does not include your name, include it in the ballot on the
line provided.
If you change your mind, revote. Only the last vote will count.
You should receive a personal acknowledgment of your vote by email
within a few days. Invalid votes and bounced acknowledgments will
be identified in the second (the last) call for votes. Addresses
and votes of all voters will be published in the vote results. If
you wish to remove your vote and all indication that you have voted
>from the final list, send a vote with CANCEL in each voting position.
Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person, etc...
100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are
the requirements for group creation. Read news.announce.newusers
and news.groups for more information on the group creation process.
QUICK AND EASY INSTRUCTIONS!
* Use the ballot.
* Include your name on the line provided.
* Indicate either YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL for each group.
* Check the address again <usenet-votes@mathcs.emory.edu>
* Mail only the ballot and delete all other text.
-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-
lisp groups Ballot [lisp-02]
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
------------------
[ ] comp.org.lisp-users
[ ] comp.std.lisp
-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-
If you voted, you should have received a vote ack. There are no
bounced acks at this time.
--
Jan Isley, the Knight who says ACK, can be reached at
jan@bagend.atl.ga.us or mathcs.emory.edu!bagend!jan
From rdippold@qualcomm.com (RonDippold) Wed Jan 12 20:20:23 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: rdippold@qualcomm.com (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: RESULT: comp.std.lisp passes 142:14, comp.org.lisp-users passes 148:13
Supersedes: <lisp-groups-CFV2@uunet.uu.net>
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 9 Jan 1994 22:55:54 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 250
Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Message-ID: <lisp-groups-RESULT@uunet.uu.net>
References: <2cb95jINNo0l@rodan.UU.NET> <lisp-groups-CFV1@uunet.uu.net> <lisp-groups-CFV2@uunet.uu.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4461 news.groups:91616 comp.lang.lisp:11616 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:4133 comp.lang.lisp.x:1153 comp.lang.lisp.franz:291 comp.lang.scheme:8194 comp.lang.clos:2249 comp.lang.dylan:1691 comp.std.misc:913
Lisp groups results - 165 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
142 14 : Yes Yes : Yes : comp.std.lisp (moderated)
148 13 : Yes Yes : Yes : comp.org.lisp-users
3 invalid votes
Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)
moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
This vote was being conducted by a neutral third party. All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <jan@bagend.atl.ga.us>.
Jan has had some problems on his end with getting the results out. He
sent me the raw results files and I've created this results posting.
All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>.
All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>.
CHARTERS
comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g. that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version). The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.
Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.
Moderator: Brad Miller <miller@cs.rochester.edu>
Submission address: lisp-standards@cs.rochester.edu
comp.*.lisp groups Final Vote Ack
comp.org.lisp-users ----+
comp.std.lisp ---+|
||
0005963128@mcimail.com Mahmoud Habboub YY
abramson@verdi.sra.com Myriam Abramson YY
alb@ipvaim.unipv.it Alberto Riva YY
anderson@titanic.cs.umass.edu Scott D. Anderson YY
andrewa@harlequin.co.uk Andrew Armstrong YY
andyl@harlequin.com Andy Latto YY
andys@harlequin.com Andy Sizer YY
aragones@crd.GE.COM Jim Aragones YY
augras@nanterre.maraut.it Philippe Augras YY
ault@cs.albany.edu James Ault YY
banda@marlin.arc.nasa.gov Carolyn Banda YY
barmar@Think.COM Barry Margolin YY
benningf@aur.alcatel.com Robert Floyd Benningfield Jr. NN
bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU Brian Harvey YN
bill@fcca.csi.com Bill McDonald YY
bill@proton.uucp William R. McDonald YY
binford@flamingo.Stanford.EDU Tom Binford YY
bj@herbison.com B.J. Herbison YY
bob@remlap.UUCP Bob Palmer YY
boyland@CS.Berkeley.EDU John Tang Boyland -Y
brooksb@verdi.sra.com Bill Brooks NY
buff@cc.gatech.edu Richard Billington YY
cerys@BBN.COM Daniel Cerys YY
ch@lks.csi.com Christopher Hoover YY
charest@underdog.jpl.nasa.gov Len Charest YY
chin@uhics.ics.Hawaii.Edu David N. Chin YY
chucko@freud.arc.nasa.gov Chuck Fry YY
cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu Ernest Cline N-
coulman@cs.Usask.ca Randy Coulman YY
cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Martin Cracauer YY
dashiell@inference.com Fred Dashiell YY
davew@advtech.uswest.com David Wroblewski -Y
davida@pinus.slu.se David Axmark YY
davis@DRI.cornell.edu James R. Davis YY
delatizk@BBN.COM Jonathan Delatizky YY
delisio@tc.pw.com Jeff DeLisio YY
demme@hobbs.intel.com David Emme YY
dga@netcom.com Dennis Allard YY
DHARPER@ESOC.BITNET David Harper NN
Didier.Guillon@imag.fr Didier Guillon YY
dmurphy@cwa.com Dan Murphy YY
dorai@owlnet.rice.edu Dorai Sitaram YY
dp@harlequin.com Jeff Del Papa YY
drayer@minerva.cis.yale.edu Rebecca Drayer NN
duff@mitre.org David A. Duff YY
DUMOULIN@TITAN.KSC.NASA.GOV Jim Dumoulin YY
dwd@king.att.com David W. Dykstra YY
eric@starbase.mitre.org Eric Lee Peterson YY
Eric_Weaver@avtc.sel.sony.com Eric Weaver Y-
franconi@irst.it Enrico Franconi YY
friedman@cs.umass.edu M. Timur Friedman YY
frs@cdr.oz.au Frank R Smith YY
fsspr@aurora.alaska.edu Sean P. Ryan NN
gadbois@cs.utexas.edu David Gadbois YY
gallagher@cs.umass.edu Kevin Gallagher YY
georg@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de Georg Schwarz NN
Gilles.Serasset@imag.fr Gilles Serasset YY
gjc@mitec2.mitech.com George Carrette YY
gls@Think.COM Guy Steele YY
Guy@AVON.sltd.dialnet.symbolics.com Guy Footring YY
gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu Basalat Ali Raja YY
haible@ma2s2.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de Bruno Haible NN
hall@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu Marty Hall YY
hdp@NMSU.Edu Heather D. Pfeiffer YY
hucke@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Matt Hucke YY
hutch@redrock.com Bob Hutchison YY
ida@ai.mit.edu Masayuki Ida YY
irist@engin.umich.edu Iris D. Tommelein YY
james@unidata.com James Powell YY
jbleier@gemstone.amd.com Joshua Bleier YY
jecollins@mmm.com John Collins YY
jeff@aiai.edinburgh.ac.uk Jeff Dalton YY
jem@edsr John E. Mendenhall -Y
Jerry.Wilcox@ucop.edu Jerry Wilcox YY
jh@gensym.com John Hodgkinson YY
jmeehan@mv.us.adobe.com Jim Meehan YY
john@mitre.org John Burger YY
jpf@wstar.mil.wi.us John P. Flanagan YY
jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk John Fitch -N
jrm@globalvillag.com John MacWilliamson NN
jwk@srs.gov John Krieger YY
kab@cambridge.apple.com Kim Barrett -Y
kanef@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Bob Kanefsky YY
keunen@montefiore.ulg.ac.be Vincent Keunen YY
kevin@umunhum.stanford.edu Kevin W. Rudd YY
kma@samson.cadr.amis.com Mark Alexander YY
krausep@verdi.sra.com Paul Krause YY
ksiezyk@mcc.com Tomasz Ksiezyk YY
kthompso@muir.arc.nasa.gov Kevin Thompson YY
laubsch@hpljl.hpl.hp.com Joachim H. Laubsch YY
lgm@iexist.att.com Lawrence G. Mayka YY
loatman_bruce@po.gis.prc.com Bruce Loatman YY
lynch@ils.nwu.edu Richard Lynch YY
magnus@aaii.oz.au Magnus Ljungberg YY
maida@cacs.usl.edu Tony Maida YY
marcoxa@mosaic.nyu.edu Marco Antoniotti YY
markf@harlequin.com Mark Friedman YY
mathieu.lafourcade@imag.fr Mathieu Lafourcade YY
matomira@di.epfl.ch Fernando D. Mato Mira YY
mbobak@silibio.ncsa.uiuc.edu Michael Bobak YY
mendall@stc.lockheed.com Albert P. Mendall Jr. YY
miller@cam.nist.gov Bruce Miller YY
miller@cs.rochester.edu Brad Miller YY
miller@stsci.edu Glenn Miller YY
miner@tc.pw.com Stephen E. Miner YY
mlh@jekyll.al.alcoa.com Michael L. Harper YY
mly@adoc.xerox.com Richard Mlynarik YY
mmt@RedBrick.COM Maxime Taksar --
morse@rap.ucar.EDU Corinne Morse YY
mthome@BBN.COM Michael Thome YY
mullarke@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com Peter Mullarkey YY
oe@dfki.uni-sb.de Stephan Oepen YY
oneel@athena.gsfc.nasa.gov Bruce O'Neel YY
pao@ai.mit.edu Patrick A. O'Donnell YY
paolo@idsia.ch Paolo Cattaneo YY
pekka@harlequin.co.uk Pekka P. Pirinen -Y
perez@hal.cs.uiuc.edu Eduardo Perez YY
peter@ggt.gsi.com Peter Denno YY
pgxavie@isrc.sandia.gov Patrick G. Xavier YY
pjg@sunbim.be Pierre-Joseph GAILLY YY
pkarp@ai.sri.com Peter Karp YY
pl0176@psilink.com Harold Ancell YY
pole@potomac.ads.com Tom Pole YY
ppyiajc@ppn3.physics.nottingham.ac.uk Andy Cross NN
price@usc.edu Keith Price YY
quinn@phoenix.princeton.edu Michael Quinn YY
quiroz@cs.rochester.edu Cesar Quiroz YY
r2mka@dax.cc.uakron.edu Mark Allgood YY
rainer@ki6.informatik.uni-hamburg.de Rainer Joswig YY
ramshaw@linc.cis.upenn.edu Lance A. Ramshaw YY
rar@csl.sri.com R. A. Riemenschneider YY
rdp@netcom.com Robert D. Pfeiffer YY
reti@cambridge.apple.com Kalman Reti YY
revu@midway.uchicago.edu Sendhil Revuluri YN
richard@bnr.ca Dick Peacocke --
rick@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller NY
rsmith@cfr32.cfr.nist.gov Richard L. Smith YY
S.J.Nuttall@open.ac.uk Richard Barber YY
samp@kurz-ai.com Sam Pilato YY
sb.ddreams@mindlink.bc.ca Scott Busse YY
schulenb@aero.org David Schulenburg YY
shahid@hplmsm.hpl.hp.com Shahid Mujtaba YY
shane@spr.com Shane Hartman NY
shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com Lynda L. True YY
silbert@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL Mark Silbert NY
simon@lia.di.epfl.ch Simon Leinen YY
smarry@io.org Smarasderagd NN
stephen.nicoud@boeing.com Stephen L Nicoud YY
sto@cs.hut.fi Seppo Torma YY
stu@valinor.mythical.com Stu Labovitz YN
SWM@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM Scott McKay YY
tar@ISI.EDU Thomas Russ -Y
taylor@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Will Taylor YY
Thomas_E_Morgan@cup.portal.com Thomas E. Morgan YY
tka@dpe.fi Tapio Karras YY
tmgeisle@faui80.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Tim Geisler YY
toad@cs.cmu.edu Todd Kaufmann YY
vittorio@Ipchost.irmkant.rm.cnr.it Vittorio Giannini YY
waterman@lug.cs.brandeis.edu T.S. Waterman YY
wheeler@ipl.rpi.edu Frederick Wheeler YY
xerox@cs.vu.nl Jude Arnout "Biep" Durieux YY
yadallee@galcon.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca Dave Yadallee YY
yduj@harlequin.co.uk Judy Anderson YY
yonkman@meg.saic.com Tom Yonkman YY
york@parc.xerox.com William M. York YY
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad.Myers@BAM.GARNET.CS.CMU.EDU
! No name given
dufourd@elec.enst.fr JC Dufourd
! No votes
HYDE@Exploder Clint Hyde -- Master of the ad hoc odd hack.
! No ballot
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