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General (M) ( sci.aeronautics )

From rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu Wed Jan 13 17:44:13 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Robert Dorsett <rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc
Subject: RFD: sci.aeronautics moderation
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This is a proposal to change the status of sci.aeronautics to that of a
moderated group.

History 
-------

Sci.aeronautics was created in mid-1989.  It was chartered to serve as a
discussion-group on aerodynamics, structures, propulsion, and human
factors.  The term "aeronautics," which is somewhat archaic, was
explicity chosen to give it a broad, "technological" feel, rather than
a specific disciplinary one.  It was created before the sci.engr
hierarchy was established.

Sci.aeronautics was created with sci.military in mind.  Sci.military
was one of the first "high-quality," non-comp groups.  With the
detailed professional and amateur knowledge there, and the discussions,
which often went into much more detail on fighter aerodynamics than
ever existed on rec.aviation, it was reasonable to assume that the time
was ripe for a dedicated aero group.

There was concern during that RFD that the group should be moderated,
in order to control noise.  After much debate, the group was offered as
unmoderated.  During the first year and a half sci.aeronautics worked
out very well.


The Problem 
-----------

During the original RFD, Eugene Miya made a comment that he'd support
the group, but that it would be a failure, for the simple reason that
few professional aero types would post in public.  There are many
reasons for this, ranging from fears of giving other countries or
companies the slightest edge, to fears of professional embarassment.
But the point is, by and large, he's been RIGHT: only a few,
particularly outspoken people comment in public.  The rest are
"lurkers." Despite this handicap, in the first year, the group did 
well.

Since late 1990, however, the group has become increasingly "noisy."
Threads such as a 50-post burst this year, on whether George Bush
actually rode in an SR-71 during the 1980 Presidential campaign,
exemplify this.  Posts and questions have tended to be less specific,
and more "trivia-based."

All of this has been alienating long-time users, including many aero
professionals and students, who had early on been frequent
contributors.  During the discussion period for the rec.aviation
re-organization and the airliners sub-group, I received many comments
>from people who said they had unsubscribed from sci.aero, because it
had simply become unreadable: a waste of their time.

Even in public, people occasionally post messages asking legitimate
questions or seeking to discuss issues, but prefacing their posts with
apologies if such posts are *inappropriate*, since so much of the regular
traffic is off-base.

In a sci group, I think we expect a certain standard.  "Naive"
questions have an honored place in the group, but when the entire group
becomes an "oracle," a Q&A session, which presupposes enough people
will be out there to play "oracle," (and I suspect there aren't),
something is lost.  It becomes a so-so information resource, rather
than a discussion-group, which was what it was originally intended to
be.

We don't need to be "professionals" to discuss this stuff seriously: but 
a certain "ambience" must be maintained, so as not to *discourage* people 
>from taking the group seriously.  It was the lack of this "ambience," I
believe, which induced Geoff Peck to offer his *rec* theory group,
during the rec.aviation re-organization, this summer.


Possible Solutions 
------------------

How do we "fix" the problem?  Several options:

1.  The most simple, straightforward way is to get people to post more
seriously, try to get discussions started.  Very difficult to get this
to work.

2.  Issue "netiquette" style posts, including the group's charter, on a
frequent basis.  This could work, but these tend to rub people (including
myself) the wrong way: too dictatorial.

3.  Create a "theory" group within sci.aeronautics, which would be
moderated, and a "regular" group, which wouldn't.  The main problem I
have with this is charters: the current charter for sci.aero is quite
"theoretical" as it is, and it's difficult to envision a "misc"
category, "none of the above."  In my opinion, sub-groups should be
case studies (e.g., airliners), or specialties (CFD, GPS), based on the
charter.

4.  Do nothing.  Hope the recent "unevenness" is a temporary thing, and
go on with life.  The problem is, I (and others) have been waiting for
things to straighten out since at least the summer of 1991, and they
haven't.  The situation has gotten much worse since the Bush thread
this summer.

5.  Change the main group to a moderated status.  This is probably the
"best" way to deal with the problem: it ensures that completely
inappropriate posts get redirected to where they belong (e.g.,
fighter-tactics on sci.military, airliners on sci.aeronautics.airliners, 
general aviation flying questions to rec.aviation).  More importantly, 
though, it would cut down on repetition, and, hopefully, ensure that 
message-thread "morphism" be reflected by more appropriate Subject: 
headers.


Would moderation tend to eliminate all "naive" posts?  I don't think so,
with sci.aeronautics.airliners as a good example: Karl Swartz has been
rejecting about 20-25% of submissions, but the resulting group has been
a good balance of discussion, theory, and "nice to know" traffic.  

The key here is to maintain the relevance of all accepted posts, and to help 
maintain a high signal by eliminating repetitiousness or polemic. 


Is moderation desirable in sci.aero's case?  I think it is.  The purpose of
this RFD is to discuss whether to create a theory group, or attempt to
remove the main group, and replace it with a new, moderated group.

I'm open to suggestions.  But I would like to make clear that I'm not
necessarily seeking to create a "scholarly" group.  My intent is to
return it to at least its early form, where both "amateurs" and "pros"
alike seemed to take it a bit more seriously.  I would also emphasize
that it remains a popular group with many people, and that the changes
are not intended to alienate them: merely to involve more qualified people 
in the group, which will be for the benefit of all concerned.  The 
airliners group is a good example of what is possible: consider the 
explosion of relevant, informal posts from people with industry exper-
ience at Boeing and Honeywell: many of these were lurkers on sci.aero, 
but never participated.  There is a wealth of human experience out there:
with the right forum, I believe people are more likely to participate.


Mary Shafer has agreed to serve as moderator.  My role would be to serve as 
an "administrative" moderator; I could also serve as a backup moderator, if
needed.  If additional moderators should be necessary, to cope with traffic 
load, personal vacations, burn-out, machine problems, etc., they could be
added as needed.  



If, within 30 days, it is still felt that there is a need to change the 
group, and there's a consensus on which changes are necessary, I will 
issue a call-for-votes.

To minimize "procedural" bickering, this proposal will take the form of the
complete new newsgroup voting process, including a standard-length RFD
and CFV, and will be subject to the rules in David Lawrence's guidelines
(November 30th revision).  There are no univerally accepted rules on changing
a newsgroup's status, so this seems the best way to proceed.

Please direct ALL follow-ups to news.groups, as per creation guidelines.
-- 
Robert Dorsett
Internet: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!rdd

From rdd@cactus.org Tue Feb 23 23:39:53 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics
Subject: CFV: moderating sci.aeronautics
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Date: 23 Feb 1993 14:38:55 -0500
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
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After some consideration, we are proceeding with the vote to turn 
sci.aeronautics into a moderated group.  The group's proposed new
charter is:

    A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,
    specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,
    structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.

The thematic moderator will be Mary Shafer, with myself serving as an
"administrative" moderator.  The group won't be fixed around any
specific personality: for example, if Mary finds her time is in short 
supply, or experiences connectivity problems, other moderators
could be added. 

The group will also be made available as a mailing list for users 
without usenet access.  This will complement the airliners mailing 
list, which will be established shortly.  The group traffic will be
archived on rascal.ics.utexas.edu.  The Aeronautics Digest, which
has been around since the original group was created, will be
discontinued, replaced with the mailing list, resulting in a more
interactive, spontaneous forum for those without usenet access.

To vote in FAVOR of the proposal, send a message to:
    aero-yes@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
with a Subject: of "Yes.  I vote for the moderation proposal."

To vote AGAINST the proposal, send a message to:
    aero-no@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
with a Subject: of "No.  I vote against the moderation proposal."

All votes must be received between 0000 CST (GMT-6) on February 23, 1993,
and 2359 CST March 16, 1993 in order to be counted.  No votes posted on
any newsgroup will be counted.  The results of the vote will be posted by
March 23, 1993.  If the proposal passes, the group will be created after a 
suitable waiting period.  If the proposal fails, sci.aeronautics will be
unchanged.

DISCUSSION

One question some may ask is why we're proceeding, especially since
the group has significantly improved since the RFD was issued last
month.  The basic problems are the same ones that produced the
RFD: the fact that, for a very long time, the group had gotten
extremely noisy, with a large number of posts of marginal relevance
and/or low signal.  

A more recent problem is the conflict potential with 
sci.aeronautics.airliners, as people continue to post questions to 
the "main group" without apparently being aware of the sub-group. 
This will result in repetition of traffic, as we've seen recently,
with the RFI thread, for example, being *independently* discussed in 
sci.aeronautics.airliners, comp.risks, rec.aviation.misc, AND 
sci.aeronautics: this is clearly a waste of net band-width.

Support was strong during the RFD period, with no expressed opposition.

The objective of moderation, in this case, is to ensure relevance and
conciseness of posts.  It is not a volume-control measure: only to
ensure that the posts deal with at least some semblance of the group
charter (and not, for instance, serve as a mirror of rec.aviation),
and that those messages which are inappropriate will be filtered and 
re-routed.  Last summer's "Bush in an SR-71" thread provides a sterling 
example of why this is needed: four weeks of posts debating whether 
an SR-71 even had a capability of carrying two crewmembers--nothing 
else--with apparently nobody wishing to look it up in a standard 
reference, and, indeed, dragging on for so long that when someone 
finally did do so it only seemed like more speculation.  These posts 
had a mind-numbing effect on the group, worsening the S:N ratio for 
over six months.

The objective of moderation isn't to turn this into a pure-academic
wasteland, nor to eliminate naive posts: only to ensure consistency and
quality in the traffic that is ultimately posted, thus easing the wear on 
your "n" key, and allowing you, the user, to better utilize your time. We 
hope this will encourage more *discussion*, getting away from the 
"oracle" based approach which has characterized it for much of the 
last year and a half.

The only change that you, the user, will encounter, is that you won't 
be able to see your post the minute you send it: it will have to be 
processed, which could take up to 24 hours.  But since many people 
don't read news daily, and many sites can take up to two weeks to 
receive "current" traffic, this shouldn't be a major problem in terms 
of the evolution of discussions.  Therefore, in the broader picture,
the group should work much the same, except, hopefully, it'll be
better: more consistent, and more informative.
-- 
Robert Dorsett
rdd@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

From rdd@cactus.org Thu Mar 11 11:35:05 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics
Subject: 2nd CFV and VOTE ACK: moderating sci.aeronautics
Followup-To: poster
Date: 11 Mar 1993 01:38:25 -0500
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Lines: 267
Sender: tale@rodan.UU.NET
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net, military@law7.daytonoh.ncr.com,
	kls@ohare.Chicago.COM
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3345 news.groups:67885 sci.aeronautics:5883 sci.aeronautics.airliners:447 sci.military:26998 rec.aviation.misc:2382 rec.models.rc:13672 sci.engr.control:619 sci.engr.mech:1070 sci.physics:48264

This is the second and final call-for-votes for the sci.aeronautics 
retro-moderation.  Following the text of the CFV is a list of all replies
received thus far.  I have also attempted to acknowledge each vote 
individually.

---------------------

After some consideration, we are proceeding with the vote to turn 
sci.aeronautics into a moderated group.  The group's proposed new
charter is:

    A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,
    specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,
    structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.

The thematic moderator will be Mary Shafer, with myself serving as an
"administrative" moderator.  The group won't be fixed around any
specific personality: for example, if Mary finds her time is in short 
supply, or experiences connectivity problems, other moderators
could be added. 

The group will also be made available as a mailing list for users 
without usenet access.  This will complement the airliners mailing 
list, which will be established shortly.  The group traffic will be
archived on rascal.ics.utexas.edu.  The Aeronautics Digest, which
has been around since the original group was created, will be
discontinued, replaced with the mailing list, resulting in a more
interactive, spontaneous forum for those without usenet access.

To vote in FAVOR of the proposal, send a message to:
    aero-yes@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
with a Subject: of "Yes.  I vote for the moderation proposal."

To vote AGAINST the proposal, send a message to:
    aero-no@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
with a Subject: of "No.  I vote against the moderation proposal."

All votes must be received between 0000 CST (GMT-6) on February 23, 1993,
and 2359 CST March 16, 1993 in order to be counted.  No votes posted on
any newsgroup will be counted.  The results of the vote will be posted by
March 23, 1993.  If the proposal passes, the group will be created after a 
suitable waiting period.  If the proposal fails, sci.aeronautics will be
unchanged.

DISCUSSION

One question some may ask is why we're proceeding, especially since
the group has significantly improved since the RFD was issued last
month.  The basic problems are the same ones that produced the
RFD: the fact that, for a very long time, the group had gotten
extremely noisy, with a large number of posts of marginal relevance
and/or low signal.  

A more recent problem is the conflict potential with 
sci.aeronautics.airliners, as people continue to post questions to 
the "main group" without apparently being aware of the sub-group. 
This will result in repetition of traffic, as we've seen recently,
with the RFI thread, for example, being *independently* discussed in 
sci.aeronautics.airliners, comp.risks, rec.aviation.misc, AND 
sci.aeronautics: this is clearly a waste of net band-width.

The objective of moderation, in this case, is to ensure relevance and
conciseness of posts.  It is not a volume-control measure: only to
ensure that the posts deal with at least some semblance of the group
charter (and not, for instance, serve as a mirror of rec.aviation),
and that those messages which are inappropriate will be filtered and 
re-routed.  Last summer's "Bush in an SR-71" thread provides a sterling 
example of why this is needed: four weeks of posts debating whether 
an SR-71 even had a capability of carrying two crewmembers--nothing 
else--with apparently nobody wishing to look it up in a standard 
reference, and, indeed, dragging on for so long that when someone 
finally did do so it only seemed like more speculation.  These posts 
had a mind-numbing effect on the group, worsening the S:N ratio for 
over six months.

The objective of moderation isn't to turn this into a pure-academic
wasteland, nor to eliminate naive posts: only to ensure consistency and
quality in the traffic that is ultimately posted, thus easing the wear on 
your "n" key, and allowing you, the user, to better utilize your time. We 
hope this will encourage more *discussion*, getting away from the 
"oracle" based approach which has characterized it for much of the 
last year and a half.

The only change that you, the user, will encounter, is that you won't 
be able to see your post the minute you send it: it will have to be 
processed, which could take up to 24 hours.  But since many people 
don't read news daily, and many sites can take up to two weeks to 
receive "current" traffic, this shouldn't be a major problem in terms 
of the evolution of discussions.  Therefore, in the broader picture,
the group should work much the same, except, hopefully, it'll be
better: more consistent, and more informative.
-- 
Robert Dorsett
rdd@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

-------------------------

"Chris J. Davis" <chris@airdata.socal.com>
"Cook, Layne" <cook@apt.mdc.com>
"David A. Platz" <dplatz@eng.umd.edu>
"Gautam Shah" <Gautam_Shah.FDB#u#QM@qmgate.larc.nasa.gov>
"Greg Rose" <ggr@koonda.acci.com.au>
"J. S. Bullock" <"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com>
"Leo WaiChung So" <leoso@cs.arizona.edu>
"PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)" <dfr@usna.navy.mil>
"Patrick M. Chaney" <pmc9439@aw101.iasl.ca.boeing.com>
"Robert P. David" <bobdave@eng.umd.edu>
"Shamim Zvonko Mohamed" <sham@cs.arizona.edu>
"Thomas D Gasser-1" <thomasg@staff.tc.umn.edu> (Thomas D.Gasser)
AKASSEM@CAIRO.EG
ANBLASIO@vaxsar.vassar.edu
Anita.Manwei.Fung@um.cc.umich.edu
Aron Eisenpress <AFECU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Art Medlar <medlar@adoc.xerox.com>
Barney Lum <barney@skat.usc.edu>
Bill Hunter <BHUNTER@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Bill Sisson <bills@hpcvcda.cv.hp.com>
Bittner <bittner@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
Bob Jacobsen <jake@dxal13.cern.ch>
Bruce Watson <wats@scicom.alphacdc.com>
Bryan Stearns <stearns@apple.com>
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org>
Dale Ollila <daleo@SSD.intel.com>
David Doshay <doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov>
David Murphy <djmurphy@wam.umd.edu>
David Reeve Sward <sward+@cmu.edu>
David Sansom <david@camscan.co.uk>
Del Armstrong <dela@ee.rochester.edu>
ECAXRON@VENUS.LERC.NASA.GOV (Ron Graham)
Fred.Lloyd@West.Sun.COM (Fred Lloyd [Phoenix SE])
Greg Lindahl <gl8f@fermi.clas.virginia.edu>
Hoover Chan <hchan@well.sf.ca.us>
IRADC@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU
Jan Mattsson  <janm@Vaduz.DoCS.UU.SE>
Jan Willem Hubbers <jwhub@sci.kun.nl>
Jay Vassos-Libove <libove@libove.alf.dec.com>
Kermit Carlson <carlson@linac.fnal.gov>
Kit.Linder@EBay.Sun.COM (Kit Linder)
Lloyd D Reid <reidld@ecf.toronto.edu>
Lorcan Mongey <lorcan@avistic.demon.co.uk>
Luke Whitaker <luke@cs.city.ac.uk>
Mark Flanagan <mark@tab00.larc.nasa.gov>
Matthew Stahl <matt@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu>
Matti E Hy|tyniemi <elvis@vipunen.hut.fi>
Michael R. Jones  <mrjones@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Niels.Ferguson@cwi.nl
Olin Perry Norton <norton@Rosebud.DIAL.MsState.Edu>
Olivier PLAUT <PLAUT@sc2a.unige.ch>
Original-nak <archie!nak>
Pete Mellor <pm@cs.city.ac.uk>
Peter Johannes <johannes@imec.be>
Phil Irvine <phil@syd.dwt.csiro.au>
Prasad V. N. Gade <pgade@eng.auburn.edu>
RI_HAWR@PAVO.CONCORDIA.CA
Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram <sundaram@me.uta.edu>
Raymond Man <raymond@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu>
Robert Byron Lowrie <lowrie@engin.umich.edu>
Robert_McDivett@RDM.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU
Roland Kaltefleiter <kaltef@theo-physik.uni-kiel.dbp.de>
S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk
Scott Stanford <stanford@leland.stanford.edu>
Simo S{teri <ssateri@leka.hut.fi>
Simon Breeze <sb4@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Sparky <DEMPSEJV@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Stephan Wenger <stewe@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Steve Robinson <robinson@fmd00.larc.nasa.gov>
Terry Ghee <ghee@sab46.larc.nasa.gov>
Thomas Netter <Thomas.Netter@sophia.inria.fr>
Tony Heatwole <HEATWOLE@LANDO.HNS.COM>
Werner Uhrig <werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu>
William R. Sauerwald  <wrsauerw@cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
altus@leland.stanford.edu (Steve Altus)
andy@vistachrome.com (Andrew Finkenstadt)
barbato@berlioz.crs4.it (Maurizio Barbato)
barnett@neuromancer.res.utc.com (Mark Barnett)
bchall@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
bdtest@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Mfg. Board Test)
beagles@lobby.ti.com (G. Beagles)
biagioli@berlioz.crs4.it (Fernando Biagioli)
bill@rosevax.rosemount.com (William Hawkins)
bolo/Joe Burger <bolo@cs.wisc.edu>
bretth@ecn.purdue.edu (Brett Hoffstadt)
brt!paulk@uu.psi.com (Paul Kennedy)
bson@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Jan Brittenson)
cffitzge@iastate.edu
cid@Athena.MIT.EDU
dan@key3.ae.su.OZ.AU
daveg@misty.sara.fl.us (Dave Goodman)
davew@amb14.larc.nasa.gov (David Whitaker)
dbloomberg@Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
dickinso@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov (Tom Dickinson)
diego@ccnext.neuhaus.de (Diego Garcia)
drk@curie.mda.uth.tmc.edu (Darrell Kachilla)
eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
fenwick@w0x0f.clipper.ingr.com (Stephen Fenwick)
gabriele@aero.org
gandalf@wpi.WPI.EDU (James Michael Sambrook)
gbt@zia.cray.com (Greg B Titus)
gerard@galaxy.nsc.com (Gerry Dowling x3188)
gero@gkminix.han.de (Gero Kuhlmann)
ggw@wolves.Durham.NC.US (Gregory G. Woodbury)
glc@bach.lerc.nasa.gov (Gary L. Cole)
guyerl@macalstr.edu (Leland Guyer)
hansenr@ohsu.EDU
jan@bagend.atl.ga.us (Jan Isley)
jduncan@prism.nmt.edu (John Duncan)
jeffg@loki.esd.sgi.com (Jeff C. Glover)
jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
jhs21@uahcs2.cs.uah.edu (Letricia Ogutu)
jlien@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Jeanny Lien)
jonathan@einstein.ph.utexas.edu (Jonathan Thornburg)
kaiser@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
klong@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
kr@inf.rl.ac.uk
kstox@nis.naitc.com (Ken Stox)
lackey@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
lopez@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Chris Lopez)
mam@gvgspd.gvg.tek.com (Mark A. Matthews)
markg@ichips.intel.com (Mark Gonzales)
matthew@oit.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
matwood@peruvian.cs.utah.edu (Mark Atwood)
maus@olias.linet.org
metzler@pablo.physics.lsa.umich.edu (Chris Metzler)
mhatz@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Hatz)
miller@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Allen Miller)
msb@sq.com (Mark Brader)
msmith@mrc-crc.ac.uk (Mike Smith x3297)
mtanner@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Michael C. Tanner)
mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson)
nak@archie.att.com
nanis@ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis)
nasr@itsa.ucsf.EDU (Anthony Nasr)
ncole@nyx.cs.du.edu (Noah Cole)
oneel@arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bruce O'Neel)
padraig@slab.pr.erau.edu (Padraig Houlahan)
parabosc@eclipse.Stanford.EDU (Stefano Paraboschi)
patb@wv.MENTORG.COM (Patrick Bryant)
pdb1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Philip D Bridges)
pferrell@fremont (Patrick Ferrell)
pjhicks@acri.fr (Peter J. Hicks)
pryan@rp.csiro.au
pswhip@avelon.lerc.nasa.gov (Dan Whipple)
rah@public.btr.com (Richard A Hyde  rah@btr.com)
rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett)
rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
s085@brems.ii.uib.no
saicmd@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
sandraw@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Sandra Wade)
sasolis@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
sawdey@everest.ee.umn.edu (Aaron Sawdey)
sfs!jmp@uunet.UU.NET (John M. Pearce)
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
sharpes@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil (Civ Daniel G. Sharpes)
stuart@phoenix.natinst.com (Don Stuart)
szopinsk@picard.med.ge.com (Jerry Szopinski Mfg 4-6983)
tad@ksr.com
togood@roger.lerc.nasa.gov (Chris Miller)
tony@wotan.cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
trier@slc6.INS.CWRU.Edu (Stephen C. Trier)
ttsai@Eden.nthu.edu.tw (Taylor Tsai (PME G813727) TEL. 715131-4870)
tucusito@kokuki.kuaero.kyoto-u.ac.jp
vaivads@gandalf.ca (Vic Vaivads)
vkochend@nyx.cs.du.edu (Vance Kochenderfer)
yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin)
zsd@axe.drea.dnd.ca (Jim Diamond)

From rdd@cactus.org Mon Mar 29 20:41:01 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics
Subject: RESULT: sci.aeronautics moderation passes 177:49
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 26 Mar 1993 11:09:43 -0500
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Lines: 283
Sender: tale@rodan.UU.NET
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Message-ID: <1ov9s7INNaqn@rodan.UU.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3390 news.groups:68549 sci.aeronautics:6017 sci.aeronautics.airliners:495 sci.military:27421 rec.aviation.misc:2796 rec.models.rc:13893 sci.engr.control:653 sci.engr.mech:1141 sci.physics:49669

The vote to moderate sci.aeronautics has passed, 177:49.  This gives 
the yesses a 128-vote and 78% margin, which satisfies both criteria for 
newsgroup creation.

The new charter for the group is:

    A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,
    specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,
    structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.

The thematic moderator is Mary Shafer: she's the one who will approve
and post messages.  I will be performing maintenance tasks, which 
amounts to tending to the group aliases, mailing list, and archive.

A mailing list, which will be a 1:1 echo of the moderated group, will
be available.  This will replace the Aeronautics Digest, which I've 
been running since the original group was created in 1989.  The mailing
list will be officially available after April 1.

The submission-address for both the mailing list and the group is:
	aeronautics@rascal.ics.utexas.edu

The administrivia address is:
	aeronautics-owner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu.
	
Mailing list business should be directed to: 
	aeronautics-direct@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
	
Archives will be available via anonymous ftp on rascal.ics.utexas.edu 
(128.83.138.20), in misc/av/sci-aeronautics-folder.

Please note that there are now two groups in the sci.aeronautics 
hierarchy: the main group, and an airliners group.  The airliners group 
was not affected by this vote.  The airliners group is moderated by Karl 
Swartz, airliners-admin@chicago.com, with traffic archived on 
rascal.ics.utexas.edu and ftp.eff.org.  For reference, that group's 
charter is:

   A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,
   construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories of
   transport-category aircraft.

My thanks to everyone who voted.  Following a suitable delay, the changes 
will take effect.

-- 
Robert Dorsett
rdd@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

-------------------------

The nays:

"Cook, Layne" <cook@apt.mdc.com>
"David A. Platz" <dplatz@eng.umd.edu>
"Leo WaiChung So" <leoso@cs.arizona.edu>
"Patrick M. Chaney" <pmc9439@aw101.iasl.ca.boeing.com>
"Robert P. David" <bobdave@eng.umd.edu>
Anita.Manwei.Fung@um.cc.umich.edu
Bruce Watson <wats@scicom.alphacdc.com>
David Detienne <detienne@ee.utah.edu>
ECAXRON@VENUS.LERC.NASA.GOV (Ron Graham)
Fred.Lloyd@West.Sun.COM (Fred Lloyd [Phoenix SE])
IRADC@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU
Joe Benning <c22jgb1@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>
Lorcan Mongey <lorcan@avistic.demon.co.uk>
Louis Bolduc <louis@nrcsp1.iar.nrc.ca>
Marc Ramsey <ramsey@netcom.com>
Mark Flanagan <mark@tab00.larc.nasa.gov>
Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram <sundaram@me.uta.edu>
Raymond Man <raymond@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu>
S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk
Stephen Lau <lau@ai.sri.com>
Steve Robinson <robinson@fmd00.larc.nasa.gov>
Terry Ghee <ghee@sab46.larc.nasa.gov>
Todd Weaver <ST601142@BROWNVM.brown.edu>
William R. Sauerwald  <wrsauerw@cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
bdtest@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Mfg. Board Test)
berk@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org (Berk Walker)
bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers)
cid@Athena.MIT.EDU
damocles@nostromo.eisley.wa.com (Randy Vice)
dave@88open.org (Dave Cline)
davew@amb14.larc.nasa.gov (David Whitaker)
gerard@galaxy.nsc.com (Gerry Dowling x3188)
gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon)
hansenr@ohsu.EDU
jblake@sirius.UVic.CA (James  Blake)
jduncan@prism.nmt.edu (John Duncan)
jeffg@loki.esd.sgi.com (Jeff C. Glover)
jlien@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Jeanny Lien)
lost@Athena.MIT.EDU
matthew@oit.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
maus@olias.linet.org
ncole@nyx.cs.du.edu (Noah Cole)
pjhicks@acri.fr (Peter J. Hicks)
sandraw@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Sandra Wade)
szopinsk@picard.med.ge.com (Jerry Szopinski Mfg 4-6983)
vernon@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Gregory Scott Vernon)
vkochend@nyx.cs.du.edu (Vance Kochenderfer)     

Yesses:

"Andy Turudic" <andy_turudic@trigate.sbc.com>
"Chris J. Davis" <chris@airdata.socal.com>
"Gautam Shah" <Gautam_Shah.FDB#u#QM@qmgate.larc.nasa.gov>
"Greg Rose" <ggr@koonda.acci.com.au>
"J. S. Bullock" <"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com>
"PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)" <dfr@usna.navy.mil>
"Shamim Zvonko Mohamed" <sham@cs.arizona.edu>
"Thomas D Gasser-1" <thomasg@staff.tc.umn.edu> (Thomas D.Gasser)
AKASSEM@CAIRO.EG
ANBLASIO@vaxsar.vassar.edu
Aron Eisenpress <AFECU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Art Medlar <medlar@adoc.xerox.com>
Ashish Nedungadi <ashish@eng.umd.edu>
B Bikowicz <megazone@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Barney Lum <barney@skat.usc.edu>
Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Bill Hunter <BHUNTER@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Bill Sisson <bills@hpcvcda.cv.hp.com>
Bittner <bittner@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
Bob Jacobsen <jake@dxal13.cern.ch>
Bryan Stearns <stearns@apple.com>
Chris Marble <CMARBLE@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org>
Dale Ollila <daleo@SSD.intel.com>
David Doshay <doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov>
David Murphy <djmurphy@wam.umd.edu>
David Reeve Sward <sward+@cmu.edu>
David Sansom <david@camscan.co.uk>
Del Armstrong <dela@ee.rochester.edu>
FSSPR@acad3.alaska.edu
Francis Jambon <jambon@imag.fr>
Greg Lindahl <gl8f@fermi.clas.virginia.edu>
Helen Trillian Rose <hrose@eff.org>
Hoover Chan <hchan@well.sf.ca.us>
Jan Mattsson  <janm@Vaduz.DoCS.UU.SE>
Jan Willem Hubbers <jwhub@sci.kun.nl>
Jay Vassos-Libove <libove@libove.alf.dec.com>
John Stoffel <john@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Jonathan.Bowen@prg.ox.ac.uk
KAYS@alans.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Randy Kays)
Karl Swartz <kls@ohare.Chicago.COM>
Kermit Carlson <carlson@linac.fnal.gov>
Kit.Linder@EBay.Sun.COM (Kit Linder)
Lloyd D Reid <reidld@ecf.toronto.edu>
Luke Whitaker <luke@cs.city.ac.uk>
Mark Michaelian <michaeli@spock.usc.edu>
Matthew Stahl <matt@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu>
Matti E Hy|tyniemi <elvis@vipunen.hut.fi>
Michael Quinn <MJQUINN@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
Michael R. Jones  <mrjones@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Mr PJ Mahon <phrwc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Niels.Ferguson@cwi.nl
Olin Perry Norton <norton@Rosebud.DIAL.MsState.Edu>
Olivier PLAUT <PLAUT@sc2a.unige.ch>
Paul Michael Keller <pkeller@engin.umich.edu>
Pete Mellor <pm@cs.city.ac.uk>
Peter Johannes <johannes@imec.be>
Phil Irvine <phil@syd.dwt.csiro.au>
Phil Sutherland <mycroft!philsuth@perth.dialix.oz.au>
Prasad V. N. Gade <pgade@eng.auburn.edu>
RI_HAWR@PAVO.CONCORDIA.CA
Rob Stengel <STENGEL@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
Robert Byron Lowrie <lowrie@engin.umich.edu>
Robert_McDivett@RDM.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU
Roland Kaltefleiter <kaltef@theo-physik.uni-kiel.dbp.de>
Scott Stanford <stanford@leland.stanford.edu>
Simo S{teri <ssateri@leka.hut.fi>
Simon Breeze <sb4@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Sparky <DEMPSEJV@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Stephan Wenger <stewe@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Steve_Smith@kcbbs.gen.nz (Steve Smith)
Thomas Netter <Thomas.Netter@sophia.inria.fr>
Tom Downey <downey@u.washington.edu>
Tony Heatwole <HEATWOLE@LANDO.HNS.COM>
Werner Uhrig <werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu>
altus@leland.stanford.edu (Steve Altus)
andy@vistachrome.com (Andrew Finkenstadt)
barbato@berlioz.crs4.it (Maurizio Barbato)
barnett@neuromancer.res.utc.com (Mark Barnett)
bchall@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
beagles@lobby.ti.com (G. Beagles)
biagioli@berlioz.crs4.it (Fernando Biagioli)
bill@rosevax.rosemount.com (William Hawkins)
bolo/Joe Burger <bolo@cs.wisc.edu>
bretth@ecn.purdue.edu (Brett Hoffstadt)
brt!paulk@uu.psi.com (Paul Kennedy)
bwagner@calvin.sfc.lehigh.edu (Bill Wagner)
cffitzge@iastate.edu
dan@key3.ae.su.OZ.AU
daveg@misty.sara.fl.us (Dave Goodman)
davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson)
dbloomberg@Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
dickinso@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov (Tom Dickinson)
diego@ccnext.neuhaus.de (Diego Garcia)
dkling@ornews.intel.com (Dean Kling)
drk@curie.mda.uth.tmc.edu (Darrell Kachilla)
emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
fenwick@w0x0f.clipper.ingr.com (Stephen Fenwick)
fsfrick@bones.lerc.nasa.gov (David Fricker)
gabriele@aero.org
gandalf@wpi.WPI.EDU (James Michael Sambrook)
gbt@zia.cray.com (Greg B Titus)
gero@gkminix.han.de (Gero Kuhlmann)
ggw@wolves.Durham.NC.US (Gregory G. Woodbury)
gkoehler@tuba.calpoly.edu
glc@bach.lerc.nasa.gov (Gary L. Cole)
gordon@ll.mit.edu (Gordon Matheson)
graf@conmuc.de.convex.com (Ingbert Graf)
guyerl@macalstr.edu (Leland Guyer)
jan@bagend.atl.ga.us (Jan Isley)
jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
jhs21@uahcs2.cs.uah.edu (Letricia Ogutu)
jmaynard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jay Maynard)
johng@oce.orst.edu (John A. Gregor)
jonathan@einstein.ph.utexas.edu (Jonathan Thornburg)
kaiser@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
klong@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
kr@inf.rl.ac.uk
kstox@nis.naitc.com (Ken Stox)
lackey@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
lopez@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Chris Lopez)
mam@gvgspd.gvg.tek.com (Mark A. Matthews)
markg@ichips.intel.com (Mark Gonzales)
matthoff@netcom.com (Matthew I. Hoffman)
matwood@peruvian.cs.utah.edu (Mark Atwood)
metzler@pablo.physics.lsa.umich.edu (Chris Metzler)
mhatz@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Hatz)
miller@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Allen Miller)
msb@sq.com (Mark Brader)
msmith@mrc-crc.ac.uk (Mike Smith x3297)
mtanner@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Michael C. Tanner)
mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson)
nak@archie.att.com
nanis@ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis)
nasr@itsa.ucsf.EDU (Anthony Nasr)
oneel@arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bruce O'Neel)
padraig@slab.pr.erau.edu (Padraig Houlahan)
parabosc@eclipse.Stanford.EDU (Stefano Paraboschi)
patb@wv.MENTORG.COM (Patrick Bryant)
paul@ERC.MsState.Edu
pdb1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Philip D Bridges)
peetah@leland.stanford.edu (Peter Gage)
pferrell@fremont (Patrick Ferrell)
plutchak@porter.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
pryan@rp.csiro.au
pswhip@avelon.lerc.nasa.gov (Dan Whipple)
rah@public.btr.com (Richard A Hyde  rah@btr.com)
raveling@kestrel.Unify.Com (Paul Raveling)
rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett)
rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
robd@shotgun.wv.tek.com (Rob Dixon)
root@baffin.uu.holonet.net (rperry)
s085@brems.ii.uib.no
saicmd@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
sasolis@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
sawdey@everest.ee.umn.edu (Aaron Sawdey)
sfs!jmp@uunet.UU.NET (John M. Pearce)
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
sharpes@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil (Civ Daniel G. Sharpes)
spirit@wildwood.demon.co.uk (Mike Horrell)
stu@valinor.mythical.com (Stu Labovitz)
stuart@phoenix.natinst.com (Don Stuart)
sunatb!pebo@relay.nluug.nl (Peter Bodifee)
tad@ksr.com
tima@CFSMO.Honeywell.COM (Timothy D Aanerud)
togood@roger.lerc.nasa.gov (Chris Miller)
tony@wotan.cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
trier@slc6.INS.CWRU.Edu (Stephen C. Trier)
ttsai@Eden.nthu.edu.tw (Taylor Tsai (PME G813727) TEL. 715131-4870)
tucusito@kokuki.kuaero.kyoto-u.ac.jp
vaivads@gandalf.ca (Vic Vaivads)
vijgen paul          <paul@voyager.larc.nasa.gov>
wagner@a1b.kph.uni-mainz.de (Axel Wagner)
yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin)
zsd@axe.drea.dnd.ca (Jim Diamond)