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Strategy games ( comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic )
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From [email protected] Thu Dec 11 18:15:04 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Alastair Ainslie <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.total-annihil,alt.games.myth Subject: RFD: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{wargames,realtime-strat} Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:00:21 GMT Lines: 123 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:1018                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)            unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  Newsgroup lines: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	"Realtime" strategy games on the IBM PC. comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames	Historically-based wargames on the IBM PC.  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganisation of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames  PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy, averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day, that many of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship. Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  So called real-time strategy (RTS) games following the harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or Xcom.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic. However, the description real time strategy has stuck, and so will minimize confusion and cross-posting.  However, I suggest that some turn-based games such as MAX will belong in this group, whilst some continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least controversy. If the RFD process results in a clear preference for another name, such as c.s.i.p.g.redalert-like, I am quite willing to go with that.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames is for the discussion of wargames on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system.  In this context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be included. This group is not intended for games that are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here (just), as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  END CHARTER.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy" games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an historical (Age of Empires), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or futuristic (Total Annihilation) setting. However, the term has come to include wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as Uprising. Similar games such as M.A.X. also belong here, whereas continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval or whatever other group has prior claim.  There should be no commercial posting, other than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  This group is intended to bridge the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if more appropriate.  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  news.announce.newgroups,news.groups, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc, alt.games.dark-reign, alt.games.total-annihil, alt.games.myth  Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]> Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Thu Feb 12 19:30:05 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Alastair Ainslie <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic Subject: 2nd RFD: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:24:54 GMT Lines: 166 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9777 news.groups:271487 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:265818                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  Newsgroup lines: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	"Realtime strategy" games (IBM PC). comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Historically-based wargames (IBM PC).  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganisation of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy, averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day, that many of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship. Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the future, but it should not be necessary.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or Xcom.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic. However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all.  Note that the charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended up in csipg.strategic for want of anywhere else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in the csipg hierarchy in the past.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system.  In this context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be included.  This group is not intended for games that are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace  END CHARTER.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy" games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires) setting.  However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as Uprising. On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  There should be no commercial posting, other than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  This group is intended to bridge the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more appropriate.  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc, comp.sys.mac.games.strategic, rec.games.miniatures.historical, rec.games.board, alt.games.total-annihil, alt.games.total-annihil.editing, alt.games.myth, alt.games.command-n-conq, alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert, alt.games.command.and.conquer, alt.games.dark-colony, alt.games.dark-reign, alt.games.dark-riegn, alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games, alt.games.red-alert, alt.games.starcraft  Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]> Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Wed Mar 18 19:00:10 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil Subject: CFV: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 10 Apr 1998 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:57:22 GMT Lines: 247 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9877 news.groups:275329 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:277003                       FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process, ask the votetaker.  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.  Newsgroups lines: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert. comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]> Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy, averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship. Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the future, but it should not be necessary.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or Xcom. In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day) alt.games.redalert              1913 (62) alt.games.myth                  1685 (54) alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44) alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35) alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25) alt.games.starcraft             500 (16) alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146 I feel a new group should be successful where there are already 200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic. However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in the csipg hierarchy in the past.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be included. This group is not intended for games that are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace  END CHARTER.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy" games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires) setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as Uprising. On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more appropriate. There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  END CHARTER.  DISTRIBUTION:  Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:  alt.games.starcraft rec.games.board comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc comp.sys.mac.games.strategic rec.games.miniatures.historical alt.games.dark-reign alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert alt.games.dark-colony alt.games.dark-riegn alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games alt.games.total-annihil.editing  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.  The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be verified, the ballot will be disallowed.  Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud. When in doubt, ask the votetaker.  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>. Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote. | | 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other | information) after the colon on the line below.  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical [         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997). PQ datestamp: 971119  --  Voting address    : [email protected]  From [email protected] Mon Mar 30 06:45:06 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 10 Apr 1998 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:34:51 GMT Lines: 247 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9900 news.groups:276971 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:282081                        LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical         unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process, ask the votetaker.  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.  Newsgroups lines: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert. comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]> Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy, averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship. Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the future, but it should not be necessary.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or Xcom. In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day) alt.games.redalert              1913 (62) alt.games.myth                  1685 (54) alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44) alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35) alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25) alt.games.starcraft             500 (16) alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146 I feel a new group should be successful where there are already 200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic. However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in the csipg hierarchy in the past.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be included. This group is not intended for games that are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace  END CHARTER.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy" games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires) setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as Uprising. On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more appropriate. There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  END CHARTER.  DISTRIBUTION:  Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:  alt.games.starcraft rec.games.board comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc comp.sys.mac.games.strategic rec.games.miniatures.historical alt.games.dark-reign alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert alt.games.dark-colony alt.games.dark-riegn alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games alt.games.total-annihil.editing  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.  The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be verified, the ballot will be disallowed.  Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud. When in doubt, ask the votetaker.  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>. Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote. | | 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other | information) after the colon on the line below.  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical [         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997). PQ datestamp: 971119  --  Voting address    : [email protected]  From [email protected] Fri Apr 17 10:15:08 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil Subject: RESULT: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} - mixed results Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:05:19 GMT Lines: 373 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9973 news.groups:278957 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:290679                                  RESULT  unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical passes 152:34  unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat fails 131:51  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} results - 196 valid votes   Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group ---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------  152   34 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  131   51 :  Yes    No :    No : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat    1 invalid vote  Newsgroups lines: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert. comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.  The voting period ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.  This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]> Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy, averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship. Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the future, but it should not be necessary.  RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or Xcom. In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day) alt.games.redalert              1913 (62) alt.games.myth                  1685 (54) alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44) alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35) alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25) alt.games.starcraft             500 (16) alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146 I feel a new group should be successful where there are already 200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic. However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in the csipg hierarchy in the past.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical  Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be included. This group is not intended for games that are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace  END CHARTER.  CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat  This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy" games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires) setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as Uprising. On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more appropriate. There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  END CHARTER.  DISTRIBUTION:  Pointers directing readers to the CFV for this vote were posted in these groups:  alt.games.starcraft rec.games.board comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc comp.sys.mac.games.strategic rec.games.miniatures.historical alt.games.dark-reign alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert alt.games.dark-colony alt.games.dark-riegn alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games alt.games.total-annihil.editing  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} Final Vote Ack                                       comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat ----+                                     comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical ---+|                                                                             || [email protected]                                             alphons vd vorst YY [email protected]                                          Scott Madison NN [email protected]                                               Arnaldo Horta YN [email protected]                              Alberto Cabitto YY [email protected]                                  Andrew Gierth -- [email protected]                                       Andrew Griffin YN [email protected]                                      Anoop Sarkar YY [email protected]                                              JOHNNY A YY [email protected]                                       Alastair Ainslie YY [email protected]                                     Andy Taylor YY [email protected]                                            Arthur C. Adams YY [email protected]                                                    John Y- [email protected]                                           Maurilio Avalos YY [email protected]                                           Joakim Karlsson NN [email protected]                          Juanma Barranquero YY [email protected]                                              Brian D. Pate YY [email protected]                                            Derek W. Benson YY [email protected]                      Bleichenbacher Michael YY [email protected]                                       Bill Michaels YY [email protected]                                          Martin H. Booda YY [email protected]                                       Niels Olof Bouvin YY [email protected]                                           bruno raoult YY [email protected]                                          Mark Brown NY [email protected]                                  Bruno Wolff III YY [email protected]                                            William Van Fleet YN [email protected]                                                  Bernard Yeh YY [email protected]                                      T.Calabrese NN [email protected]                                    Chris Butcher YY [email protected]                                          Carl A. Chauvin YY [email protected]                                                  Chris Hare Y- [email protected]                                                  Chris Baer Y- [email protected]                                   Christoph Nahr YY [email protected]                                      Chris Barwick YY [email protected]                                     Chris Hester YN [email protected]                                  Christopher Robin Zimmerman -- [email protected]                            Christopher Hill -Y [email protected]                                       David A. Howard NN [email protected]                                       Craig Trithardt YN [email protected]                                               Chris Noto YY [email protected]                                             Stephen E. Chase YY [email protected]                                             John Crothers YY [email protected]                                             C Muzyka YY [email protected]                                           Chris Cothrun YY [email protected]                                           Chris Talpas YY [email protected]                                  Damien Dougan YY [email protected]                                              Dan L. Pierson YY [email protected]                                             Daniel Ban YY [email protected]                                       Daniel A. Reece Y- [email protected]                                            Darren Sanders YY [email protected]                                              David Farrar YY [email protected]                                             David Jairath YY [email protected]                                     David desJardins NY [email protected]                                                Duane Walters YY [email protected]                                              David Gilbert NN [email protected]                                             Dirk Gomez NN [email protected]                                   Meredith Dixon YY [email protected]                                             Dennis Jenkins YY [email protected]                                                David Long YY [email protected]                                               Dan Morris NN [email protected]                                             Doug O'Brien YY [email protected]                                          David Short YY [email protected]                                          Dave Wiseman YY [email protected]                                                  Edmund Hack YY [email protected]                                 Edward Glamkowski NY [email protected]                                         Edward Franks YY [email protected]                                          Frans P. de Vries YY [email protected]                                             Fred Farzanegan NN [email protected]                                               F. Schray YN [email protected]                                         Travis E Guy Y- [email protected]                                     Lloyd Eldred NN [email protected]                                                 Gary Makin NN [email protected]                                             Gary Fisher NY [email protected]                                             Jeffrey Whalen YY [email protected]                                  Glenn Kurtzrock YY [email protected]                                                  Gary Lyon Y- [email protected]                                  Gordon Hutchinson YY [email protected]                                        Gregory K Deeter YY [email protected]                                        Ray Gronberg YY [email protected]                                            George Ruof YN [email protected]                                             Guy Macon -Y [email protected]                                             Bob Hermann YY [email protected]                                           Hank Fung YY [email protected]                                      howard goldstein YY [email protected]                                        Henning Sauer YY [email protected]                                        Stephen Briody YY [email protected]                                         Nat Wong YY [email protected]                                          Jad Makarem YY [email protected]                                       Jason A. Lefkowitz NN [email protected]                             John E. Daniels NN [email protected]                                      Johan D'Hondt YN [email protected]                           Jeliza Patterson YN [email protected]                                      Josh Goldshlag YY [email protected]                                                 Jimmy Chan YN [email protected]                                              Jim Riley -N [email protected]                                    Joe McCauley YY [email protected]                                                        Jan Haar NY [email protected]                                        Terry Collins YY [email protected]                                        Joel Mathis NY [email protected]                              Christopher E. Johnson YN [email protected]                                      John A MacLean YY [email protected]                                                Joseph Cochran NN [email protected]                                     Julian Barker YY [email protected]                                                 Jeff Vitous N- [email protected]                                                 Karl Krieger YY [email protected]                                                  Allan Bailey YY [email protected]                                               Kevin Conway YY [email protected]                   Kevin McGuire YN [email protected]                                          Kevin L.Sparrow YY [email protected]                                             K.Y.Toh YY [email protected]                                            Paul Travis YY [email protected]                                        Lee Johnson YN [email protected]                                              Lance Leslie YY [email protected]                                                Luc French YY [email protected]                                           Martin Rapier YY [email protected]                                   Jose Luis Mambrilla YY [email protected]                                           Richard Klawitter YY [email protected]                                          Mark C. Orton Y- [email protected]                                                 Mark Asher YN [email protected]                                           Aaron Marquez NN [email protected]                          Matthew Stanton YY [email protected]                                        Michael W Peterson YY [email protected]                                    Michael Hussey Y- [email protected]                                          Timothy W. McBride YY [email protected]                                                 MICHAEL HOWE YY [email protected]                                               Michael Neff Y- [email protected]                                       Frank Montabon YY [email protected]                                        Greg Mooseker YY [email protected]                                       Sigbjorn Lund Olsen YY [email protected]                                   Mark Pearson YY [email protected]                              Mustafa Soysal MS57 NY [email protected]                                              Mike Renfro YY [email protected]                                   Nicholas Sylvain YY [email protected]                             Christian Weisgerber NN [email protected]                                            Neil Fradkin YN [email protected]                                                  Noah Mari YN [email protected]                                            Neal R. Stangis -Y [email protected]                                            David Nunn YY [email protected]                                          Olav Nieuwejaar NN [email protected]                                                  Old Salt YY [email protected]                                           Ole Chr. R. Sorensen NN [email protected]                                          Peter Symonds YY [email protected]                                                            Pan YY [email protected]                                    Patrick J. LoPresti NN [email protected]                                        Peter Dwyer YN [email protected]                                      Philip Hunt YY [email protected]                                                 phillips YY [email protected]                                   Paul Maynard YY [email protected]                                       Randell Jesup YY [email protected]           Raymond Bingham <[email protected]> -Y [email protected]                                          Richard D. Clark YN [email protected]                                          Leon Chambers YY [email protected]                                 Dave Soumis aka Reflash YY [email protected]                                           Ken Fishkin YY [email protected]                                       Rhett Stroh NN [email protected]                     Kevin Allegood, [email protected] YN [email protected]                                        Richard Wein YY [email protected]              Richard Law (Essential Web Design) YY [email protected]                                       Richard Gadsden Y- [email protected]                                       Richard Damon YY [email protected]                                             Brad Jones YY [email protected]                                                     Rob Dixon -Y [email protected]                                        Rob Alexander YY [email protected]                                               Roger Wong NN [email protected]                                          J Rufinus YY [email protected]                                    Samuel Gray YY [email protected]                                               Grifman YN [email protected]                                      Bryan Silverthorn YN [email protected]                                    Simon Warren YY [email protected]                                           Simon Lyall YY [email protected]                                              Bob Simpson YY [email protected]                                      ALAN SIMPSON YY [email protected]                                            Theo Senycia YY [email protected]                              Simon Sadedin -Y [email protected]                                               Dwight Brown NN [email protected]                                         Jason Steiner NN [email protected]                                           Stein J. Rypern YY [email protected]                                           Shaun Travers YY [email protected]                                         Tillman Strahan NN [email protected]                                                    Todd Perry -N [email protected]                                 Cesar E. Tokumura YN [email protected]                       Thomas Stockheim YY [email protected]                                           Tobias Erle YY [email protected]                                              Troy Denkinger YY [email protected]                                               Tim Skirvin NN [email protected]                                                        TomW YY [email protected]                                             Tyf Seadragon NN [email protected]                                                George Yu YY [email protected]                             Alex Van Der Hengst YN [email protected]                                                  Vic Dura NN [email protected]                                           Uri Waisbord YY [email protected]                                           Skip Franklin Y- [email protected]                                           Michael Tennent YY [email protected]                                            Will Fiveash YY [email protected]                                  Scott Jennings YY [email protected]                                                  Mike Craig YY [email protected]                                     Chris Litton YY   Votes in error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]    ! No ballot 
 
USENET FACT: Big-8
BIG-8 hierarchies are the 8 traditional top hierarchies of the Usenet. See the following page for more
 
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