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Lisp Users ( comp.org.lisp-users )
 
From [email protected] Mon Oct 18 16:34:23 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Brad Miller)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: RFD: comp.org.lisp-users and comp.std.lisp
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 18 Oct 1993 16:03:31 -0400
Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Dept
Lines: 118
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4164 news.groups:84984 comp.lang.lisp:11109 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3686 comp.lang.lisp.x:1084 comp.lang.lisp.franz:273 comp.lang.scheme:7754 comp.lang.clos:2147 comp.lang.dylan:1294 comp.std.misc:869

This is a formal Request for Discussion for the creation of two newsgroups:

***Proposed Names:         Proposed Moderation:     Proposed Moderator:

comp.org.lisp-users               No
comp.std.lisp                     Yes                 [email protected]

***Charter:

comp.org.lisp-users

Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users (ALU)
(including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership issues,
future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues. Overlap with
comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-posted to should be
minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical, but an organizational
group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally gatewayed into this
newsgroup. 

PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is 
welcome to post (appropriate messages).

comp.std.lisp

(also see below) This moderated (sub)group is intended to foster focused
discussion on user-group supported standards that are not addressed in the
(almost final) ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to
the group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator will
periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals, open and close
discussions on new standards, and call for specific technical experts to
take charge of each standard (for surveying existing practice, proposing,
incorporating changes, and wording the final version).  The moderator will
be reponsible for recording all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning
identifiers and submitting copies to all interested vendors. The intent is
to give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included in
the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to) DEFSYSTEM,
Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.

Note that ALU board member Brad Miller ([email protected]) volunteered
at the LUV '93 conference to moderate such a newsgroup, and act as the ALU
"de facto" standards coordinator for the vendor and user community.

PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is welcome
to post (appropriate messages).

*** Reasoning behind this RFD

Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association of
Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products.  As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership of
ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to promote
the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU (open)
board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a newsgroup in
the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals of
disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties, have
a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties interested in
lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future conferences and a
possible periodical take place. The newsgroup will also cut down the
number of addresses on the direct ALU list, which should ease support
chores on that list as well. Futhermore the common-lisp mailing list is
designed for technical, rather than evangelical discussions; furthermore
the ALU does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of
lisp like languages.

The other major discussion at that point was on how to get the various
vendors of lisp products to merge their incompatible definitions of several
common features, namely DEFSYSTEM, foreign function interface, and
multiprocessing. The vendors suggested that feedback from the user group
would be welcome, and it was clear that only through user pressure would the
vendors be inclined to improve the existing situation (which for those of us
who maintain "portable" software that needs to work under several vendors
offerings know is quite painful). At that time, I volunteered to coordinate
such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards creation for the ALU,
though commentary would be open to all interested parties.
comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve into
some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific features
(in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they already support).
Note that this is in response to vendor wishes: they want more feedback from 
the user community; this is one way of providing it, with the ALU representing
the users.

Some of the standards developed will be considered optional: in general, the
standards so developed will not necessitate vendors to implement features
they do not wish to support (e.g. version control under defsystem), but
rather be a request that if they do support such a feature, that the ALU
standard be one of the ways of accessing it. (So, e.g. Franz would be free
to not support version control at all, or support their own, presumably
better implementation, but in the latter case should also support the ALU
standard for version control under defsystem).

While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups.

*** Procedure:

Any discussion should be kept in news.groups; and should
include ALU somewhere in the title. 

By 12 November, if interest warrants, a CFV will be initiated by
[email protected], and will be conducted by an impartial third
party.

This article is being mailed to the following lists in addition its
posting to the newsgroups listed in the Newsgroups: header above.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Thanks for your interest and consideration,
Brad Miller, for the ALU, [email protected]

From [email protected] Wed Nov  3 13:28:14 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Brad Miller)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: 2nd RFD: comp.org.lisp-users and comp.std.lisp
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 2 Nov 1993 13:55:52 -0500
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 134
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4230 news.groups:86560 comp.lang.lisp:11218 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3767 comp.lang.lisp.x:1094 comp.lang.lisp.franz:276 comp.lang.scheme:7856 comp.lang.clos:2168 comp.lang.dylan:1342 comp.std.misc:876

*****************************************************************
This is the second (of two) formal Request for Discussion for the
creation of two newsgroups:

Please see *** Proceedure below, to respond to this RfD, or to 
encourage a vote.

(the text below has been changed slightly, see last sentence before 
"*** Proceedure", and text after that heading)
****************************************************************

***Proposed Names:         Proposed Moderation:     Proposed Moderator:

comp.org.lisp-users               No
comp.std.lisp                     Yes                 [email protected]

***Charter:

comp.org.lisp-users

Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users (ALU)
(including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership issues,
future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues. Overlap with
comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-posted to should be
minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical, but an organizational
group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally gatewayed into this
newsgroup. 

PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is 
welcome to post (appropriate messages).

comp.std.lisp

(also see below) This moderated (sub)group is intended to foster focused
discussion on user-group supported standards that are not addressed by
formal standards, e.g. in the (almost final) ANSI Common Lisp. It will be
moderated for appropriateness to the group and timeliness, and not for
technical content; the moderator will periodically post the status of all
ALU standard proposals, open and close discussions on new standards, and
call for specific technical experts to take charge of each standard (for
surveying existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version).  The moderator will be reponsible for recording all
finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and submitting copies
to all interested vendors. The intent is to give feedback to the several
LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible support of various features that
have developed too late to be included in the work of ANSI committee X3J13,
such as (but not limited to) DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and
Multiprocessing.

Note that ALU board member Brad Miller ([email protected]) volunteered
at the LUV '93 conference to moderate such a newsgroup, and act as the ALU
"de facto" standards coordinator for the vendor and user community.

PARTICIPATION WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO CURRENT ALU MEMBERS. Anyone is welcome
to post (appropriate messages).

*** Reasoning behind this RFD

Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association of
Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products.  As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership of
ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to promote
the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU (open)
board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a newsgroup in
the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals of
disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties, have
a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties interested in
lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future conferences and a
possible periodical take place. The newsgroup will also cut down the
number of addresses on the direct ALU list, which should ease support
chores on that list as well. Futhermore the common-lisp mailing list is
designed for technical, rather than evangelical discussions; furthermore
the ALU does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of
lisp like languages.

The other major discussion at that point was on how to get the various
vendors of lisp products to merge their incompatible definitions of several
common features, namely DEFSYSTEM, foreign function interface, and
multiprocessing. The vendors suggested that feedback from the user group
would be welcome, and it was clear that only through user pressure would the
vendors be inclined to improve the existing situation (which for those of us
who maintain "portable" software that needs to work under several vendors
offerings know is quite painful). At that time, I volunteered to coordinate
such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards creation for the ALU,
though commentary would be open to all interested parties.
comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve into
some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific features
(in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they already support).
Note that this is in response to vendor wishes: they want more feedback from 
the user community; this is one way of providing it, with the ALU representing
the users.

Some of the standards developed will be considered optional: in general, the
standards so developed will not necessitate vendors to implement features
they do not wish to support (e.g. version control under defsystem), but
rather be a request that if they do support such a feature, that the ALU
standard be one of the ways of accessing it. (So, e.g. Franz would be free
to not support version control at all, or support their own, presumably
better implementation, but in the latter case should also support the ALU
standard for version control under defsystem).

While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for 
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp 
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).

*** Procedure:

Any discussion should be kept in news.groups; and should
include ALU or Lisp somewhere in the title. 

By 12 November 93, if interest warrants, a CFV will be initiated by
[email protected], and will be conducted by an impartial third party.
Please send me private email (or post something to news.groups) if you would
definitely vote FOR or AGAINST this proposal (if against, I'd like to know
why, feel free to post to news.groups as well); I will only go through the
CFV stage if it looks like success (100 more yes votes than no; 2/3
majority) is probable.

Thanks for your interest and consideration,
Brad Miller, for the ALU, [email protected]

[note: first RFD was also mailed to a number of mailing lists, this second
RFD has not been]
-- 
---- Brad Miller [email protected]
Disclaimer: I disavow any support, or consent for the actions
            or existance of any so called government entity.

From [email protected] Tue Nov 16 16:42:16 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Jan Isley)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: CFV: comp.std.lisp moderated and comp.org.lisp-users
Followup-To: poster
Date: 16 Nov 1993 14:20:19 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 174
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 8 Dec 1993 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Jan Isley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4282 news.groups:87878 comp.lang.lisp:11301 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3849 comp.lang.lisp.x:1105 comp.lang.lisp.franz:281 comp.lang.scheme:7955 comp.lang.clos:2190 comp.lang.dylan:1392 comp.std.misc:889

                      FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)

This is the first of two Call For Votes (CFV) regarding the proposed
creation of two new newsgroups.  Please read the proposals before voting.
Detailed instructions for voting are given below.

Unmoderated group: comp.org.lisp-users
Moderated group:   comp.std.lisp (moderated)

Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users	Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp		User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)

moderator:		Brad Miller <[email protected]>
submission address:	[email protected]

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 7 December 1993.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <[email protected]>.

Votes should be mailed to [email protected]

All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <[email protected]>.

All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <[email protected]>.

The CFV will be sent to the following mailing lists:

[email protected]     [email protected]
[email protected]             [email protected]

CHARTERS

comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g.  that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version).  The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

Moderator:           Brad Miller <[email protected]>
Submission address:  [email protected]

RATIONALE

comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association
of Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products.  As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership
of ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to
promote the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU
(open) board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a
newsgroup in the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals
of disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties,
have a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties
interested in lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future
conferences and a possible periodical take place. Furthermore the ALU
does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of lisp
like languages.

comp.std.lisp
-------------
At LUV-93 it was clear from the common lisp vendors that they would not
be investing substantial amounts of effort in attempting to make their
products compatible with each-other without some firm guidance and
commitment from their users. We felt that the ALU, by providing a forum
to define such "de facto" standards, could help the user community
better coordinate on cohesive needs, and thus provide a "single voice"
to the vendors for important (compatibility related) standards issues.
By opening up the discussion to the public via this newsgroup, we hope
to better represent real-world users, not just the "academic" few who
usually participate in standards adventures. At that time, I volunteered
to coordinate such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards
creation for the ALU, though commentary would be open to all interested
parties.  comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve
into some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific
features (in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they
already support).

While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for 
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp 
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).

VOTING INSTRUCTIONS

Mail votes to: [email protected]

(R)eplying to this message should address your vote correctly if
you are replying to this message in its originally posted form in
a newsgroup or mailing list, and your news reader or mail user
agent honors the Reply-To: header.  Posted votes or votes mailed to
any other address do not count.

Valid votes are YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL.  Case is not important.
If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank.  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program.  ABSTAIN votes do not affect the vote outcome.  If your mail
software does not include your name, include it in the ballot on the
line provided.

If you change your mind, revote.  Only the last vote will count.

You should receive a personal acknowledgment of your vote by email
within a few days.  Invalid votes and bounced acknowledgments will
be identified in the second (the last) call for votes.  Addresses
and votes of all voters will be published in the vote results.  If
you wish to remove your vote and all indication that you have voted
>from the final list, send a vote with CANCEL in each voting position.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person, etc...
100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are
the requirements for group creation.  Read news.announce.newusers
and news.groups for more information on the group creation process.

QUICK AND EASY INSTRUCTIONS!
* Use the ballot.
* Include your name on the line provided.
* Indicate either YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL for each group.
* Check the address again <[email protected]>
* Mail only the ballot and delete all other text.

-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-

lisp groups Ballot    [lisp-01]

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
------------------
[         ]  comp.org.lisp-users
[         ]  comp.std.lisp

-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-
-- 
Jan Isley, the Knight who says ACK, can be reached at
[email protected]  or  mathcs.emory.edu!bagend!jan

From [email protected] Thu Dec  2 01:53:32 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Jan Isley)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.std.lisp moderated and comp.org.lisp-users
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: poster
Date: 1 Dec 1993 15:09:50 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 177
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 8 Dec 1993 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Jan Isley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4357 news.groups:89153 comp.lang.lisp:11378 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:3936 comp.lang.lisp.x:1115 comp.lang.lisp.franz:284 comp.lang.scheme:8053 comp.lang.clos:2198 comp.lang.dylan:1424 comp.std.misc:897

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                  
This is the last of two Call For Votes (CFV) regarding the proposed
creation of two new newsgroups.  Please read the proposals before voting.
Detailed instructions for voting are given below.

Unmoderated group: comp.org.lisp-users
Moderated group:   comp.std.lisp (moderated)

Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users	Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp		User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)

moderator:		Brad Miller <[email protected]>
submission address:	[email protected]

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 7 December 1993.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <[email protected]>.

Votes should be mailed to [email protected]

All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <[email protected]>.

All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <[email protected]>.

The CFV will be sent to the following mailing lists:

[email protected]     [email protected]
[email protected]             [email protected]

CHARTERS

comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g.  that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version).  The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

Moderator:           Brad Miller <[email protected]>
Submission address:  [email protected]

RATIONALE

comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Although SLUG (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) evolved into the Association
of Lisp Users, the mailing list for SLUG is still used for discussions
related to issues regarding Symbolics products.  As such, it is not the
appropriate vehicle for discussions relevant for the entire membership
of ALU. One of the primary purposes behind the ALU organization is to
promote the use of, and education about LISP-like languages. At the ALU
(open) board meeting at LUV '93, we discussed this and felt that a
newsgroup in the comp.org hierarchy could best help us achieve our goals
of disseminating information about promoting lisp to interested parties,
have a single place for discussing how the ALU can help parties
interested in lisp, and have a useful place for discussion on future
conferences and a possible periodical take place. Furthermore the ALU
does NOT restrict itself to only common-lisp, but all dialects of lisp
like languages.

comp.std.lisp
-------------
At LUV-93 it was clear from the common lisp vendors that they would not
be investing substantial amounts of effort in attempting to make their
products compatible with each-other without some firm guidance and
commitment from their users. We felt that the ALU, by providing a forum
to define such "de facto" standards, could help the user community
better coordinate on cohesive needs, and thus provide a "single voice"
to the vendors for important (compatibility related) standards issues.
By opening up the discussion to the public via this newsgroup, we hope
to better represent real-world users, not just the "academic" few who
usually participate in standards adventures. At that time, I volunteered
to coordinate such "de facto" (better called "de dicto") standards
creation for the ALU, though commentary would be open to all interested
parties.  comp.std.lisp would be the place to hold specific focused
discussion on these evolving standards, which would ultimately evolve
into some sort of request to the vendor community to support specific
features (in addition to, or in place of overlapping features they
already support).

While the initial discussion on comp.std.lisp will concentrate on
common-lisp, it is not, in principle, so limited; it is intended to be a
good place for users of any lisp dialect to communicate and attempt to
agree on non-formal standards that can be used as feedback from users to
vendors and other implementation groups. However, where better forums for 
a particular dialect or branch of lisp exists, the user will be strongly
encouraged by the moderator to use that forum instead of comp.std.lisp 
(since presumably that will be where the audience for the idea is).

VOTING INSTRUCTIONS

Mail votes to: [email protected]

(R)eplying to this message should address your vote correctly if
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agent honors the Reply-To: header.  Posted votes or votes mailed to
any other address do not count.

Valid votes are YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL.  Case is not important.
If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank.  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program.  ABSTAIN votes do not affect the vote outcome.  If your mail
software does not include your name, include it in the ballot on the
line provided.

If you change your mind, revote.  Only the last vote will count.

You should receive a personal acknowledgment of your vote by email
within a few days.  Invalid votes and bounced acknowledgments will
be identified in the second (the last) call for votes.  Addresses
and votes of all voters will be published in the vote results.  If
you wish to remove your vote and all indication that you have voted
>from the final list, send a vote with CANCEL in each voting position.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person, etc...
100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are
the requirements for group creation.  Read news.announce.newusers
and news.groups for more information on the group creation process.

QUICK AND EASY INSTRUCTIONS!
* Use the ballot.
* Include your name on the line provided.
* Indicate either YES, NO, ABSTAIN or CANCEL for each group.
* Check the address again <[email protected]>
* Mail only the ballot and delete all other text.

-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-

lisp groups Ballot    [lisp-02]

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
------------------
[         ]  comp.org.lisp-users
[         ]  comp.std.lisp

-=-=- Do Not Delete Anything Between These Lines -=-=-

If you voted, you should have received a vote ack.  There are no
bounced acks at this time.
-- 
Jan Isley, the Knight who says ACK, can be reached at
[email protected]  or  mathcs.emory.edu!bagend!jan

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Wed Jan 12 20:20:23 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.lisp.mcl,comp.lang.lisp.x,comp.lang.lisp.franz,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.lang.dylan,comp.std.misc
Subject: RESULT: comp.std.lisp passes 142:14, comp.org.lisp-users passes 148:13
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 9 Jan 1994 22:55:54 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 250
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4461 news.groups:91616 comp.lang.lisp:11616 comp.lang.lisp.mcl:4133 comp.lang.lisp.x:1153 comp.lang.lisp.franz:291 comp.lang.scheme:8194 comp.lang.clos:2249 comp.lang.dylan:1691 comp.std.misc:913

Lisp groups results - 165 valid votes

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 142   14 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : comp.std.lisp (moderated)
 148   13 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : comp.org.lisp-users
   3 invalid votes


Newsgroups lines:
comp.org.lisp-users	Association of Lisp Users related discussions.
comp.std.lisp		User group (ALU) supported standards. (Moderated)

moderator:		Brad Miller <[email protected]>
submission address:	[email protected]

This vote was being conducted by a neutral third party.  All questions
regarding voting and procedure or reports of problems should be mailed
to Jan Isley <[email protected]>.

Jan has had some problems on his end with getting the results out.  He
sent me the raw results files and I've created this results posting.

All questions regarding the proposed new groups should be mailed to
the proposer, Brad Miller <[email protected]>.

All questions regarding the comp.org.lisp-users to ALU mailing list
gateway to Charles Fry <[email protected]>.


CHARTERS

comp.org.lisp-users
-------------------
Discussion of general topics relevant to the Association of Lisp Users
(ALU) (including Lisp Vendors), in particular centered on membership
issues, future conferences, publications, and Lisp advocacy issues.
Overlap with comp.lang.lisp.*, and other groups this message is cross-
posted to should be minimal, as this is NOT intended to be a technical,
but an organizational group. The ALU mailing list will be bidirectionally
gatewayed into this newsgroup.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

comp.std.lisp (moderated)
-------------------------
This moderated group is intended to foster focused discussion on
user-group supported standards that are beyond the scope of more
formal standards e.g.  that are not addressed in the (almost final)
ANSI Common Lisp. It will be moderated for appropriateness to the
group and timeliness, and not for technical content; the moderator
will periodically post the status of all ALU standard proposals,
open and close discussions on new standards, and call for specific
technical experts to take charge of each standard (for surveying
existing practice, proposing, incorporating changes, and wording
the final version).  The moderator will be reponsible for recording
all finalized standards for the ALU, assigning identifiers and sub-
mitting copies to all interested vendors. The initial intent is to
give feedback to the several LISP vendors for inter-vendor compatible
support of various features that have developed too late to be included
in the work of ANSI committee X3J13, such as (but not limited to)
DEFSYSTEM, Foreign Function Interface, and Multiprocessing.

Participation will not be limited to current ALU members.

Moderator:           Brad Miller <[email protected]>
Submission address:  [email protected]


comp.*.lisp groups Final Vote Ack


                                                     comp.org.lisp-users ----+
                                                           comp.std.lisp ---+|
                                                                            ||
[email protected]                                      Mahmoud Habboub YY
[email protected]                                      Myriam Abramson YY
[email protected]                                            Alberto Riva YY
[email protected]                             Scott D. Anderson YY
[email protected]                                    Andrew Armstrong YY
[email protected]                                              Andy Latto YY
[email protected]                                              Andy Sizer YY
[email protected]                                            Jim Aragones YY
[email protected]                                   Philippe Augras YY
[email protected]                                               James Ault YY
[email protected]                                     Carolyn Banda YY
[email protected]                                             Barry Margolin YY
[email protected]                      Robert Floyd Benningfield Jr. NN
[email protected]                                     Brian Harvey YN
[email protected]                                             Bill McDonald YY
[email protected]                                        William R. McDonald YY
[email protected]                                   Tom Binford YY
[email protected]                                               B.J. Herbison YY
[email protected]                                                  Bob Palmer YY
[email protected]                                   John Tang Boyland -Y
[email protected]                                           Bill Brooks NY
[email protected]                                       Richard Billington YY
[email protected]                                                  Daniel Cerys YY
[email protected]                                           Christopher Hoover YY
[email protected]                                   Len Charest YY
[email protected]                                     David N. Chin YY
[email protected]                                         Chuck Fry YY
[email protected]                                 Ernest Cline N-
[email protected]                                           Randy Coulman YY
[email protected]                                    Martin Cracauer YY
[email protected]                                        Fred Dashiell YY
[email protected]                                   David Wroblewski -Y
[email protected]                                            David Axmark YY
[email protected]                                        James R. Davis YY
[email protected]                                         Jonathan Delatizky YY
[email protected]                                              Jeff DeLisio YY
[email protected]                                            David Emme YY
[email protected]                                                Dennis Allard YY
[email protected]                                            David Harper NN
[email protected]                                       Didier Guillon YY
[email protected]                                                  Dan Murphy YY
[email protected]                                         Dorai Sitaram YY
[email protected]                                              Jeff Del Papa YY
[email protected]                                  Rebecca Drayer NN
[email protected]                                                David A. Duff YY
[email protected]                                    Jim Dumoulin YY
[email protected]                                           David W. Dykstra YY
[email protected]                                   Eric Lee Peterson YY
[email protected]                                   Eric Weaver Y-
[email protected]                                            Enrico Franconi YY
[email protected]                                     M. Timur Friedman YY
[email protected]                                                 Frank R Smith YY
[email protected]                                        Sean P. Ryan NN
[email protected]                                         David Gadbois YY
[email protected]                                      Kevin Gallagher YY
[email protected]                               Georg Schwarz NN
[email protected]                                     Gilles Serasset YY
[email protected]                                       George Carrette YY
[email protected]                                                    Guy Steele YY
[email protected]                            Guy Footring YY
[email protected]                                     Basalat Ali Raja YY
[email protected]                       Bruno Haible NN
[email protected]                                        Marty Hall YY
[email protected]                                            Heather D. Pfeiffer YY
[email protected]                                           Matt Hucke YY
[email protected]                                             Bob Hutchison YY
[email protected]                                                 Masayuki Ida YY
[email protected]                                     Iris D. Tommelein YY
[email protected]                                              James Powell YY
[email protected]                                      Joshua Bleier YY
[email protected]                                              John Collins YY
[email protected]                                       Jeff Dalton YY
[email protected]                                                 John E. Mendenhall -Y
[email protected]                                          Jerry Wilcox YY
[email protected]                                               John Hodgkinson YY
[email protected]                                          Jim Meehan YY
[email protected]                                                  John Burger YY
[email protected]                                        John P. Flanagan YY
[email protected]                                            John Fitch -N
[email protected]                                     John MacWilliamson NN
[email protected]                                                    John Krieger YY
[email protected]                                         Kim Barrett -Y
[email protected]                                     Bob Kanefsky YY
[email protected]                                  Vincent Keunen YY
[email protected]                                    Kevin W. Rudd YY
[email protected]                                     Mark Alexander YY
[email protected]                                           Paul Krause YY
[email protected]                                              Tomasz Ksiezyk YY
[email protected]                                   Kevin Thompson YY
[email protected]                                 Joachim H. Laubsch YY
[email protected]                                        Lawrence G. Mayka YY
[email protected]                                  Bruce Loatman YY
[email protected]                                             Richard Lynch YY
[email protected]                                          Magnus Ljungberg YY
[email protected]                                               Tony Maida YY
[email protected]                                     Marco Antoniotti YY
[email protected]                                           Mark Friedman YY
[email protected]                               Mathieu Lafourcade YY
[email protected]                                   Fernando D. Mato Mira YY
[email protected]                                  Michael Bobak YY
[email protected]                              Albert P. Mendall Jr. YY
[email protected]                                            Bruce Miller YY
[email protected]                                         Brad Miller YY
[email protected]                                               Glenn Miller YY
[email protected]                                            Stephen E. Miner YY
[email protected]                                   Michael L. Harper YY
[email protected]                                         Richard Mlynarik YY
[email protected]                                              Maxime Taksar --
[email protected]                                            Corinne Morse YY
[email protected]                                                Michael Thome YY
[email protected]                         Peter Mullarkey YY
[email protected]                                             Stephan Oepen YY
[email protected]                                     Bruce O'Neel YY
[email protected]                                         Patrick A. O'Donnell YY
[email protected]                                               Paolo Cattaneo YY
[email protected]                                      Pekka P. Pirinen -Y
[email protected]                                         Eduardo Perez YY
[email protected]                                               Peter Denno YY
[email protected]                                   Patrick G. Xavier YY
[email protected]                                          Pierre-Joseph GAILLY YY
[email protected]                                                 Peter Karp YY
[email protected]                                            Harold Ancell YY
[email protected]                                               Tom Pole YY
[email protected]                            Andy Cross NN
[email protected]                                                   Keith Price YY
[email protected]                                   Michael Quinn YY
[email protected]                                        Cesar Quiroz YY
[email protected]                                        Mark Allgood YY
[email protected]                          Rainer Joswig YY
ra[email protected]                                 Lance A. Ramshaw YY
[email protected]                                       R. A. Riemenschneider YY
[email protected]                                           Robert D. Pfeiffer YY
[email protected]                                        Kalman Reti YY
[email protected]                                   Sendhil Revuluri YN
[email protected]                                                Dick Peacocke --
[email protected]                                             Richard Miller NY
[email protected]                                  Richard L. Smith YY
[email protected]                                       Richard Barber YY
[email protected]                                                 Sam Pilato YY
[email protected]                                       Scott Busse YY
[email protected]                                         David Schulenburg YY
[email protected]                                     Shahid Mujtaba YY
[email protected]                                                 Shane Hartman NY
[email protected]                                     Lynda L. True YY
[email protected]                                     Mark Silbert NY
[email protected]                                           Simon Leinen YY
[email protected]                                                  Smarasderagd NN
[email protected]                                  Stephen L Nicoud YY
[email protected]                                                   Seppo Torma YY
[email protected]                                       Stu Labovitz YN
[email protected]                              Scott McKay YY
[email protected]                                                     Thomas Russ -Y
[email protected]                                     Will Taylor YY
[email protected]                             Thomas E. Morgan YY
[email protected]                                                     Tapio Karras YY
[email protected]                      Tim Geisler YY
[email protected]                                               Todd Kaufmann YY
[email protected]                        Vittorio Giannini YY
[email protected]                                  T.S. Waterman YY
[email protected]                                       Frederick Wheeler YY
[email protected]                                   Jude Arnout "Biep" Durieux YY
[email protected]                          Dave Yadallee YY
[email protected]                                          Judy Anderson YY
[email protected]                                            Tom Yonkman YY
[email protected]                                         William M. York YY


Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                              
   ! No name given
[email protected]                                                JC Dufourd
   ! No votes
[email protected]                     Clint Hyde -- Master of the ad hoc odd hack.
   ! No ballot

 
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