• Your Trusted Usenet Provider
  • Secure, Private, Unlimited

Newsgroups Main » Newsgroups Directory » Computers - OS and Platforms » IBM PC and Clones » Games

Strategy games ( comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic )
 
From [email protected] Thu Dec 11 18:15:04 1997
Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back
From: Alastair Ainslie <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.total-annihil,alt.games.myth
Subject: RFD: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{wargames,realtime-strat}
Followup-To: news.groups
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Approved: [email protected]
Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:00:21 GMT
Lines: 123
Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:1018

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
           unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

Newsgroup lines:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	"Realtime" strategy games on the IBM PC.
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames	Historically-based wargames on the IBM PC.

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganisation
of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. This is not a Call for Votes
(CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames

PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy,
averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day, that many
of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most
discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat
boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship.
Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be
easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

So called real-time strategy (RTS) games following the
harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently
discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was
created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2
sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million
copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their
wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one
of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300
posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels
inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all
the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore,
these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as
there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more
traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or
Xcom.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since
it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic.
However, the description real time strategy has stuck, and so will
minimize confusion and cross-posting.  However, I suggest that some
turn-based games such as MAX will belong in this group, whilst some
continuous time games such as Entrepreneur should remain in
c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime strategy games" such as
Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that
such games should be lost to the new group. No name will cover all the
angles, but the current one should cause least controversy. If the RFD
process results in a clear preference for another name, such as
c.s.i.p.g.redalert-like, I am quite willing to go with that.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.wargames is for the discussion of wargames on
the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system.  In this
context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using
historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a
single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical
scenarios may be included. This group is not intended for games that
are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by"
an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as
Imperialism; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such
as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as
Panzer General 2 DO belong here (just), as do tank simulations such as
Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare
should be discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. Commercial
postings should not be made, unless they are relevant to a games
discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy"
games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system.
These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command &
Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a
battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and
units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an
historical (Age of Empires), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or futuristic
(Total Annihilation) setting. However, the term has come to include
wholly tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first
person element such as Uprising. Similar games such as M.A.X. also
belong here, whereas continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon
belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon should
be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval or whatever other group has prior
claim.  There should be no commercial posting, other than single posts
of direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading
of games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  This
group is intended to bridge the gap between
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post
in one of these if more appropriate.

END CHARTER.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc, alt.games.dark-reign,
alt.games.total-annihil, alt.games.myth

Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]>
Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>

From [email protected] Thu Feb 12 19:30:05 1998
Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back
From: Alastair Ainslie <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
Subject: 2nd RFD: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat}
Followup-To: news.groups
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Approved: [email protected]
Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:24:54 GMT
Lines: 166
Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9777 news.groups:271487 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:265818

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

Newsgroup lines:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	"Realtime strategy" games (IBM PC).
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Historically-based wargames (IBM PC).

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganisation
of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. This is not a Call for Votes
(CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy,
averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day, that many
of the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most
discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat
boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship.
Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be
easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The
first RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be
the preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been
persuaded that the current name would reduce misposting from those who
consider the likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where
those who would use the group most would be perfectly clear in their
own minds what the group would be about, but it could be confusing for
newbies.  Given this choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and
just try to placate the regulars with the promise that the group will
stay more on-topic as a result of the more ugly name. The alternative
would be to lightly moderate the group for misposts, but there has
been little enthusiasm for that; the option of such moderation is
still a possibility for the future, but it should not be necessary.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the
harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are currently
discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the group was
created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since then the Dune 2
sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold some 6 million
copies alone, never mind the similar games that have followed in their
wake. This popularity can be seen in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one
of the busiest groups on Usenet with a typical daily traffic of 300
posts per day, and peaks of over 1000 per day.  Such traffic levels
inevitably reduce the quality of discussion, and is one reason why all
the popular RTS games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore,
these are not the only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as
there are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more
traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism or
Xcom.

Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since it is
debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic.
However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will
minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define
group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can
be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad
option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these
games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to
individual RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time
games such as Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and
some "realtime strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in
c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is not intended that such games should be lost to
the new group. No name will cover all the angles, but the current one
should cause least controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted
at all.  Note that the charter also includes games such as Myth and
Uprising, which have ended up in csipg.strategic for want of anywhere
else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that
the boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting
games and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried
too hard to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various
communities will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in
other groups in the csipg hierarchy in the past.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames
on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system.  In this
context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using
historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a
single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical
scenarios may be included.  This group is not intended for games that
are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by"
an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as
Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the
appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the
other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank
simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly
about naval warfare should be discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. Commercial postings should not be made,
unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all
trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy"
games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating
system. These games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command &
Conquer, or Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a
battlefield where one must collect resources, build structures and
units, and attack one or more enemies. This may happen in an
futuristic (Total Annihilation), fantasy (Warcraft 2), or
historically-flavoured (Age of Empires) setting.  However, the term
has come to include non-harvesting, wholly tactical games such as
Myth, as well as those with a first person element such as
Uprising. On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad
Tycoon belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise, games such as Harpoon
should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games that depict actual
historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in
csipg.war-historical (should it pass).

There should be no commercial posting, other than single posts of
direct relevance to the games discussed in this group; the trading of
games should only occur in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.  This
group is intended to bridge the gap between
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post
in one of these if it is more appropriate.

END CHARTER.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

news.announce.newgroups,
news.groups,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,
comp.sys.mac.games.strategic,
rec.games.miniatures.historical,
rec.games.board,
alt.games.total-annihil,
alt.games.total-annihil.editing,
alt.games.myth,
alt.games.command-n-conq,
alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert,
alt.games.command.and.conquer,
alt.games.dark-colony,
alt.games.dark-reign,
alt.games.dark-riegn,
alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games,
alt.games.red-alert,
alt.games.starcraft

Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]>
Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>

From [email protected] Wed Mar 18 19:00:10 1998
Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back
From: David Bostwick <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil
Subject: CFV: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat}
Followup-To: poster
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 10 Apr 1998 00:00:00 GMT
Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:57:22 GMT
Lines: 247
Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9877 news.groups:275329 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:277003

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read
them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process,
ask the votetaker.

This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots
or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.

Newsgroups lines:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert.
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]>
Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>

Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy,
averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of
the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most
discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat
boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship.
Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be
easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first
RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the
preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that
the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the
likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would
use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the
group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this
choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the
regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a
result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly
moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for
that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the
future, but it should not be necessary.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the
harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are
currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the
group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since
then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold
some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have
followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in
c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet
with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over
1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of
discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS
games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the
only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there
are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more
traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism
or Xcom.
In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts :
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day)
alt.games.redalert              1913 (62)
alt.games.myth                  1685 (54)
alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44)
alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35)
alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25)
alt.games.starcraft             500 (16)
alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146
I feel a new group should be successful where there are already
200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of
csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since
it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic.
However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will
minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define
group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can
be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad
option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these
games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual
RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as
Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime
strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is
not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name
will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least
controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the
charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended
up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere
else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the
boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games
and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard
to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities
will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in
the csipg hierarchy in the past.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on
the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context,
wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical
weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or
a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be
included. This group is not intended for games that are based in
alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical
period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age
of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer
General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and
iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the
group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant
to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done
in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy"
games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These
games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or
Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where
one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one
or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation),
fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires)
setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly
tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person
element such as Uprising.
On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and
games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise,
games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games
that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in
csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge
the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more
appropriate.
There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other
than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this
group; the trading of games should only occur in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.

END CHARTER.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:

alt.games.starcraft
rec.games.board
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc
comp.sys.mac.games.strategic
rec.games.miniatures.historical
alt.games.dark-reign
alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert
alt.games.dark-colony
alt.games.dark-riegn
alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games
alt.games.total-annihil.editing

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING

Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes
will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and
votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.

Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from
receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be
verified, the ballot will be disallowed.

Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to
news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

HOW TO VOTE:

Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the
"BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry
about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.

Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and
indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.

When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>.
Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.

Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):

  [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote
  [ NO      ]  example.no.vote
  [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention
  [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation

DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot!
If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.

If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.

======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote.
|
| 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <CSIPGW-0001> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place
| ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other
| information) after the colon on the line below.

Voter name:

| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):

 Your Vote   Newsgroup
 ---------   -----------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
[         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============

This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997).
PQ datestamp: 971119

-- 
Voting address    : [email protected]

From [email protected] Mon Mar 30 06:45:06 1998
Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back
From: David Bostwick <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil
Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat}
Followup-To: poster
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 10 Apr 1998 00:00:00 GMT
Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:34:51 GMT
Lines: 247
Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9900 news.groups:276971 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:282081

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
        unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read
them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process,
ask the votetaker.

This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots
or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.

Newsgroups lines:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert.
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]>
Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>

Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy,
averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of
the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most
discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat
boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship.
Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be
easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first
RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the
preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that
the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the
likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would
use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the
group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this
choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the
regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a
result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly
moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for
that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the
future, but it should not be necessary.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the
harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are
currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the
group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since
then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold
some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have
followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in
c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet
with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over
1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of
discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS
games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the
only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there
are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more
traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism
or Xcom.
In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts :
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day)
alt.games.redalert              1913 (62)
alt.games.myth                  1685 (54)
alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44)
alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35)
alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25)
alt.games.starcraft             500 (16)
alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146
I feel a new group should be successful where there are already
200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of
csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since
it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic.
However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will
minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define
group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can
be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad
option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these
games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual
RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as
Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime
strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is
not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name
will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least
controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the
charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended
up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere
else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the
boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games
and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard
to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities
will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in
the csipg hierarchy in the past.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on
the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context,
wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical
weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or
a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be
included. This group is not intended for games that are based in
alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical
period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age
of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer
General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and
iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the
group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant
to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done
in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy"
games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These
games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or
Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where
one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one
or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation),
fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires)
setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly
tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person
element such as Uprising.
On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and
games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise,
games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games
that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in
csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge
the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more
appropriate.
There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other
than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this
group; the trading of games should only occur in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.

END CHARTER.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:

alt.games.starcraft
rec.games.board
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc
comp.sys.mac.games.strategic
rec.games.miniatures.historical
alt.games.dark-reign
alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert
alt.games.dark-colony
alt.games.dark-riegn
alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games
alt.games.total-annihil.editing

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING

Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes
will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and
votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.

Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from
receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be
verified, the ballot will be disallowed.

Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to
news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

HOW TO VOTE:

Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the
"BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry
about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.

Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and
indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.

When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>.
Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.

Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):

  [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote
  [ NO      ]  example.no.vote
  [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention
  [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation

DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot!
If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.

If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.

======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote.
|
| 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <CSIPGW-0002> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place
| ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other
| information) after the colon on the line below.

Voter name:

| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):

 Your Vote   Newsgroup
 ---------   -----------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
[         ]  comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============

This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997).
PQ datestamp: 971119

-- 
Voting address    : [email protected]

From [email protected] Fri Apr 17 10:15:08 1998
Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back
From: David Bostwick <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.command-n-conq,alt.games.command.and.conquer,alt.games.myth,alt.games.total-annihil
Subject: RESULT: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} - mixed results
Followup-To: news.groups
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: [email protected]
Archive-Name: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:05:19 GMT
Lines: 373
Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:9973 news.groups:278957 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic:290679

                                RESULT
 unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical passes 152:34
 unmoderated group comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat fails 131:51

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} results - 196 valid votes

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 152   34 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical
 131   51 :  Yes    No :    No : comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat
   1 invalid vote

Newsgroups lines:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat	Realtime strategy games, eg. Red Alert.
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical	Wargames based on historical conflicts.

The voting period ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 9 Apr 1998.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Alastair Ainslie (Cloudman) <[email protected]>
Proponent: Carl A. Chauvin <[email protected]>

Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

PC wargames have traditionally been discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However this group is so busy,
averaging 300 posts a day with peaks of 1000 posts per day,  that many of
the most experienced wargamers have given up on it. Instead, most
discussion seems to have fragmented among a number of company Web chat
boards, which are far less easy to use and vulnerable to censorship.
Wargaming represents a distinct genre of computer games, and could be
easily separated from c.s.i.p.g.strategic with little overlap.  The first
RFD in this series proposed c.s.i.p.g.wargames, which would be the
preference of most wargamers, but we have reluctantly been persuaded that
the current name would reduce misposting from those who consider the
likes of Red Alert to be a wargame.  It's a case where those who would
use the group most would be perfectly clear in their own minds what the
group would be about, but it could be confusing for newbies.  Given this
choice, one has to side with the outsiders, and just try to placate the
regulars with the promise that the group will stay more on-topic as a
result of the more ugly name. The alternative would be to lightly
moderate the group for misposts, but there has been little enthusiasm for
that; the option of such moderation is still a possibility for the
future, but it should not be necessary.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

So called real-time strategy (RTS) games, that generally follow the
harvest-build-attack paradigm of Westwood's Dune 2 game are
currently discussed in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. When the
group was created, Dune 2 was the only game of this type; since
then the Dune 2 sequels, Command and Conquer and Red Alert, have sold
some 6 million copies alone, never mind the similar games that have
followed in their wake. This popularity can be seen in
c.s.i.p.g.strategic, which is one of the busiest groups on Usenet
with a typical daily traffic of 300 posts per day, and peaks of over
1000 per day.  Such traffic levels inevitably reduce the quality of
discussion, and is one reason why all the popular RTS
games spawn one or two alt.games groups.  Furthermore, these are not the
only games discussed on c.s.i.p.g.strategic, as there
are at least as many gamers on the group interested in more
traditional strategy games such as Civilization 2, Imperialism
or Xcom.
In the month to 22/Feb/98, Dejanews counts the following posts :
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic 9360 (302 per day)
alt.games.redalert              1913 (62)
alt.games.myth                  1685 (54)
alt.games.total-annihil         1360 (44)
alt.games.warcraft              1076 (35)
alt.games.command-n-conq.*,alt.games.command.and.conquer 790 (25)
alt.games.starcraft             500 (16)
alt.games.dark-reign,alt.games.dark-riegn 146
I feel a new group should be successful where there are already
200 posts a day being made in alt groups, plus the 20-30% of
csipga.  Personally I would favour the name c.s.i.p.g.dune2-like, since
it is debatable whether such games are either realtime or strategic.
However, the description "real time strategy" has stuck, and so will
minimize confusion and cross-posting.  It is always tricky to define
group boundaries, especially when the established name for a genre can
be misleading if taken literally, but I think this is the least bad
option - there is definitely an audience for a group devoted to these
games, as shown by the multiplicity of alt. groups devoted to individual
RTS games.  However, I suggest that some continuous time games such as
Entrepreneur should remain in c.s.i.p.g.strategic, and some "realtime
strategy games" such as Harpoon clearly belong in c.s.i.p.g.naval; it is
not intended that such games should be lost to the new group. No name
will cover all the angles, but the current one should cause least
controversy, assuming that such a group is wanted at all. Note that the
charter also includes games such as Myth and Uprising, which have ended
up split between csipg.strategic and csipg.action for want of anywhere
else.  They would fit in well with the proposed group, but mean that the
boundaries have to be stretched a little to include non-harvesting games
and games that are not wholly 3rd person.  I have maybe tried too hard
to define the group - I'm sure that in practice the various communities
will sort things out for themselves, as has happened in other groups in
the csipg hierarchy in the past.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames on
the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system. In this context,
wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using historical
weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a single war, or
a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical scenarios may be
included. This group is not intended for games that are based in
alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by" an historical
period with just a few historical scenarios, such as Imperialism or Age
of Empires; they should be discussed in the appropriate group, such as
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the other hand, games such as Panzer
General 2 DO belong here, as do tank simulations such as Armored Fist and
iM1A2. Games that are mostly about naval warfare should be discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. No binary files should be posted to the
group.  Commercial postings should not be made, unless they are relevant
to a games discussed in the group; all trading of games should be done
in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat

This group is for the discussion of so-called "real time strategy"
games, for the IBM PC and compatibles using any operating system. These
games generally resemble Westwood's Dune 2 and Command & Conquer, or
Blizzard's Warcraft 2, with a third-person view of a battlefield where
one must collect resources, build structures and units, and attack one
or more enemies. This may happen in an futuristic (Total Annihilation),
fantasy (Warcraft 2), or historically-flavoured (Age of Empires)
setting. However, the term has come to include non-harvesting, wholly
tactical games such as Myth, as well as those with a first person
element such as Uprising.
On the other hand continuous time games such as Railroad Tycoon, and
games with turn-based elements, belong in c.s.i.p.g.strategic. Likewise,
games such as Harpoon should be discussed in c.s.i.p.g.naval, and games
that depict actual historical battles, such as Close Combat, belong in
csipg.war-historical (should it pass).  This group is intended to bridge
the gap between comp.sys.ibm.pc.games strategic and
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action; post in one of these if it is more
appropriate.
There should be no posting of binaries and no commercial posting, other
than single posts of direct relevance to the games discussed in this
group; the trading of games should only occur in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace.

END CHARTER.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to the CFV for this vote were posted in these groups:

alt.games.starcraft
rec.games.board
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc
comp.sys.mac.games.strategic
rec.games.miniatures.historical
alt.games.dark-reign
alt.games.command-n-conq.red-alert
alt.games.dark-colony
alt.games.dark-riegn
alt.games.dune-ii.virgin-games
alt.games.total-annihil.editing

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.{war-historical,realtime-strat} Final Vote Ack


                                    comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.realtime-strat ----+
                                    comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical ---+|
                                                                            ||
[email protected]                                             alphons vd vorst YY
[email protected]                                          Scott Madison NN
[email protected]                                               Arnaldo Horta YN
[email protected]                              Alberto Cabitto YY
[email protected]                                  Andrew Gierth --
[email protected]                                       Andrew Griffin YN
[email protected]                                      Anoop Sarkar YY
[email protected]                                              JOHNNY A YY
[email protected]                                       Alastair Ainslie YY
[email protected]                                     Andy Taylor YY
[email protected]                                            Arthur C. Adams YY
[email protected]                                                    John Y-
[email protected]                                           Maurilio Avalos YY
[email protected]                                           Joakim Karlsson NN
[email protected]                          Juanma Barranquero YY
[email protected]                                              Brian D. Pate YY
[email protected]                                            Derek W. Benson YY
[email protected]                      Bleichenbacher Michael YY
[email protected]                                       Bill Michaels YY
[email protected]                                          Martin H. Booda YY
[email protected]                                       Niels Olof Bouvin YY
[email protected]                                           bruno raoult YY
[email protected]                                          Mark Brown NY
[email protected]                                  Bruno Wolff III YY
[email protected]                                            William Van Fleet YN
[email protected]                                                  Bernard Yeh YY
[email protected]                                      T.Calabrese NN
[email protected]                                    Chris Butcher YY
[email protected]                                          Carl A. Chauvin YY
[email protected]                                                  Chris Hare Y-
[email protected]                                                  Chris Baer Y-
[email protected]                                   Christoph Nahr YY
[email protected]                                      Chris Barwick YY
[email protected]                                     Chris Hester YN
[email protected]                                  Christopher Robin Zimmerman --
[email protected]                            Christopher Hill -Y
[email protected]                                       David A. Howard NN
[email protected]                                       Craig Trithardt YN
[email protected]                                               Chris Noto YY
[email protected]                                             Stephen E. Chase YY
[email protected]                                             John Crothers YY
[email protected]                                             C Muzyka YY
[email protected]                                           Chris Cothrun YY
[email protected]                                           Chris Talpas YY
[email protected]                                  Damien Dougan YY
[email protected]                                              Dan L. Pierson YY
[email protected]                                             Daniel Ban YY
[email protected]                                       Daniel A. Reece Y-
darren@aia.net.au                                            Darren Sanders YY
david@home.net.nz                                              David Farrar YY
davidj@knoware.nl                                             David Jairath YY
desj@math.berkeley.edu                                     David desJardins NY
dewey@mtco.com                                                Duane Walters YY
dgilbert@gte.net                                              David Gilbert NN
dirk.gomez@sap-ag.de                                             Dirk Gomez NN
dixonm@access.mountain.net                                   Meredith Dixon YY
djenkins@umr.edu                                             Dennis Jenkins YY
dlong@boscovs.com                                                David Long YY
dmorris@cloud9.net                                               Dan Morris NN
dougob@javanet.com                                             Doug O'Brien YY
DSHORT@nova.wright.edu                                          David Short YY
dwiseman@erim-int.com                                          Dave Wiseman YY
echack@crl.com                                                  Edmund Hack YY
eglamkowski@angelfire.com                                 Edward Glamkowski NY
fortran@earthlink.net                                         Edward Franks YY
fpv@xymph.iaf.nl                                          Frans P. de Vries YY
fredf@nortel.ca                                             Fred Farzanegan NN
fschray@pacbell.net                                               F. Schray YN
g8trh8tr@ix.netcom.com                                         Travis E Guy Y-
galtham@universe.digex.net                                     Lloyd Eldred NN
garym@ssg.com.au                                                 Gary Makin NN
gcfish@telepath.com                                             Gary Fisher NY
geoffrey@tir.com                                             Jeffrey Whalen YY
glennk@pegasus.rutgers.edu                                  Glenn Kurtzrock YY
glyon@on.bell.ca                                                  Gary Lyon Y-
Gord.Hutchinson@myna.com                                  Gordon Hutchinson YY
Greg@philatelic.com                                        Gregory K Deeter YY
gronberg@mindspring.com                                        Ray Gronberg YY
gruof@pacificnet.net                                            George Ruof YN
guymacon@deltanet.com                                             Guy Macon -Y
hermannrg@erols.com                                             Bob Hermann YY
hfung@lerami.lerctr.org                                           Hank Fung YY
hgoldste@bbs.mpcs.com                                      howard goldstein YY
hsauer@marnie.teuto.de                                        Henning Sauer YY
indy@interconnect.net                                        Stephen Briody YY
isc70290@leonis.nus.edu.sg                                         Nat Wong YY
jadmakarem@bigfoot.com                                          Jad Makarem YY
jalefkowit@aol.com                                       Jason A. Lefkowitz NN
jdaniels@copper.ucs.indiana.edu                             John E. Daniels NN
jdhondt@village.uunet.be                                      Johan D'Hondt YN
jeliza+@red-dwarf.fac.cs.cmu.edu                           Jeliza Patterson YN
jgoldshlag@wesleyan.edu                                      Josh Goldshlag YY
jimmy@hawaii.edu                                                 Jimmy Chan YN
jimrtex@pipeline.com                                              Jim Riley -N
jmccaul@iatcmail.ed.ray.com                                    Joe McCauley YY
jmh@gmx.net                                                        Jan Haar NY
joecool@gameworlds.com                                        Terry Collins YY
joelmathis@geocities.com                                        Joel Mathis NY
john0997@sprintmail.com                              Christopher E. Johnson YN
John@USSCOT.DEMON.CO.UK                                      John A MacLean YY
jsciv@bev.net                                                Joseph Cochran NN
julian@rodent.demon.co.uk                                     Julian Barker YY
jvitous@wwa.com                                                 Jeff Vitous N-
kak@ipp.mpg.de                                                 Karl Krieger YY
kc5ksf@io.com                                                  Allan Bailey YY
KCONWAY@apsc.com                                               Kevin Conway YY
Kevin.McGuire.kevinmoomcg@sas.upenn.edu.moo                   Kevin McGuire YN
kle1@cableol.co.uk                                          Kevin L.Sparrow YY
kxtoh@po.pacific.net.sg                                             K.Y.Toh YY
LaoBao@ix.netcom.com                                            Paul Travis YY
lee_johnson@sympatico.ca                                        Lee Johnson YN
lhl@azstarnet.com                                              Lance Leslie YY
lucfrench@aol.com                                                Luc French YY
M.Rapier@shef.ac.uk                                           Martin Rapier YY
mambri@mx2.redestb.es                                   Jose Luis Mambrilla YY
mand@ipp.mpg.de                                           Richard Klawitter YY
Mark.Orton@pulse.com                                          Mark C. Orton Y-
marka@cdmnet.com                                                 Mark Asher YN
marquez@pacbell.net                                           Aaron Marquez NN
matthew_stanton@lakeside.sea.wa.us                          Matthew Stanton YY
michael@flash.net                                        Michael W Peterson YY
mike@falconry.demon.co.uk                                    Michael Hussey Y-
milo@swlink.net                                          Timothy W. McBride YY
MLHowe@aol.com                                                 MICHAEL HOWE YY
mneff@cityweb.de                                               Michael Neff Y-
montabon@pilot.msu.edu                                       Frank Montabon YY
Mooseg@foxinternet.net                                        Greg Mooseker YY
mosikos@online.no                                       Sigbjorn Lund Olsen YY
mpearson@leland.Stanford.EDU                                   Mark Pearson YY
msoysal@mistik.express.net                              Mustafa Soysal MS57 NY
mwr3116@tntech.edu                                              Mike Renfro YY
mylastname@ix.netcom.com                                   Nicholas Sylvain YY
naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de                             Christian Weisgerber NN
nfradkin@secant.com                                            Neil Fradkin YN
noahmari@mcn.org                                                  Noah Mari YN
nrstangi@mtu.edu                                            Neal R. Stangis -Y
nunnd@globalnet.co.uk                                            David Nunn YY
olav@viking.mv.com                                          Olav Nieuwejaar NN
oldsalt@banet.net                                                  Old Salt YY
osr@agurk.dk                                           Ole Chr. R. Sorensen NN
p.symonds@mcmail.com                                          Peter Symonds YY
pan@syix.com                                                            Pan YY
patl@cag.lcs.mit.edu                                    Patrick J. LoPresti NN
peter.dwyer@qrail.com.au                                        Peter Dwyer YN
philh@vision25.demon.co.uk                                      Philip Hunt YY
phillips@gisco.net                                                 phillips YY
pmaynard@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us                                   Paul Maynard YY
Randell.Jesup@scala.com                                       Randell Jesup YY
rayb@shofixti.fc.hp.com           Raymond Bingham <rayb@shofixti.fc.hp.com> -Y
rdclark@erols.com                                          Richard D. Clark YN
rebel.one@virgin.net                                          Leon Chambers YY
reflashg@execpc.com                                 Dave Soumis aka Reflash YY
remove@parc.xerox.com                                           Ken Fishkin YY
rhett@inet1.inetworld.net                                       Rhett Stroh NN
ribo@mindspring.com                     Kevin Allegood, ribo@mindspring.com YN
richard.wein@virgin.net                                        Richard Wein YY
richard@essentialdesign.com              Richard Law (Essential Web Design) YY
richard@tga.u-net.com                                       Richard Gadsden Y-
richard_damon@iname.com                                       Richard Damon YY
rjones@us.oracle.com                                             Brad Jones YY
rob@csiuk.com                                                     Rob Dixon -Y
rob@mhairi.demon.co.uk                                        Rob Alexander YY
rogerw@bigfoot.com                                               Roger Wong NN
rufinus@mbe.ece.wisc.edu                                          J Rufinus YY
samuel.gray@nottingham.ac.uk                                    Samuel Gray YY
sgrif2@concentric.net                                               Grifman YN
silverthorn@home.com                                      Bryan Silverthorn YN
Simon.Warren@btinternet.com                                    Simon Warren YY
simon@darkmere.gen.nz                                           Simon Lyall YY
simpson@netcom.com                                              Bob Simpson YY
simpsonanospam@swbell.net                                      ALAN SIMPSON YY
spectre@eisa.net.au                                            Theo Senycia YY
SSadedin@vtrlmel1.telstra.com.au                              Simon Sadedin -Y
stainles@bga.com                                               Dwight Brown NN
steiners@primenet.com                                         Jason Steiner NN
steinjr@online.no                                           Stein J. Rypern YY
str@qdot.qld.gov.au                                           Shaun Travers YY
Tillman@strahan.org                                         Tillman Strahan NN
toddp@bev.net                                                    Todd Perry -N
tokumura@pc.highway.ne.jp                                 Cesar E. Tokumura YN
tommi@Pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE                       Thomas Stockheim YY
torex@berlin.snafu.de                                           Tobias Erle YY
troy@whadda.com                                              Troy Denkinger YY
tskirvin@uiuc.edu                                               Tim Skirvin NN
tsw@voyager.net                                                        TomW YY
typhon@wave.co.nz                                             Tyf Seadragon NN
typhoon@idtdna.com                                                George Yu YY
vanderhengst@mindspring.com                             Alex Van Der Hengst YN
vpdura@hiwaay.net                                                  Vic Dura NN
waisbord@bigfoot.com                                           Uri Waisbord YY
wargamer@swbell.net                                           Skip Franklin Y-
wbrunner@gate.net                                           Michael Tennent YY
will@austin.ibm.com                                            Will Fiveash YY
wirehead@toybox.webtoys.net                                  Scott Jennings YY
wiz@verinet.com                                                  Mike Craig YY
wizard@teamknightrider.com                                     Chris Litton YY


Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
stamper@stamper.com
   ! No ballot
 
USENET FACT: Kill File
A set of filters setup to determine which user's posts will be read/downloaded or ignored.