From [email protected] Tue Jul 28 17:18:21 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2567 news.groups:54747 misc.forsale.computers:46905 misc.forsale:67416 ny.forsale:2267 nj.forsale:3701 pa.forsale:1232 ne.forsale:9208
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,ne.forsale
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin)
Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: High Energy Concepts
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:24:53 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 32

I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new
hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be:
	    
	misc.forsale.computers.hardware
	misc.forsale.computers.software

At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to:

	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm
	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple	
	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other
	
	misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm
	misc.forsale.computers.software.apple
	misc.forsale.computers.software.other

The reason for this RFD is that many current readers of misc.forsale.
computers believe the group is too cumbersome to read/follow in its
current format; simply put the volume of this group is too high for
the existing format to continue being an effective means of offering
computer related goods for sale.  However, there are a large number
who would like to continue to see the group in its present format. 

Following Usenet guidelines, ALL followup discussion on this topic
should occur in news.groups ONLY.  Do not cross-post back to other
groups such as misc.forsale.computers.  RFDs typically generate
a large amount of traffic and can swamp a newsgroup.  

Regards,
-- 
Mike Miskulin
[email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Sep  1 11:37:27 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2675 news.groups:56024 misc.forsale:70268 misc.forsale.computers:50670 ny.forsale:2454 nj.forsale:3960 pa.forsale:1354 dc.forsale:3600 misc.misc:17278
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Mike Miskulin 
Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: poster
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: High Energy Concepts
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:17:54 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 146

************************************************************************
* 				URGENT                                 *
*								       *
*  [email protected] has brought to my attention that newsgroup        *
*  creation guidelines now require a SEPERATE VOTE on each group       *
*  in question.  A simple ballot is contained within this CFV.  The    *
*  only change is that you can vote yes/no/abstain on each of the      *
*  groups in question.  PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO REVOTE IF YOU HAVE     *
*  ALREADY VOTED.  I personally apologize for this error and hope that *
*  it does not have an adverse effect on the outcome of this vote      *
*  								       *
*  Mike Miskulin       						       *
************************************************************************

This article is the FIRST CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization 
of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization 
will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace 
the current misc.forsale.computers group. 

PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.

+----------+
| PROPOSAL |
+----------+

Create:
	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like]
	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ]
	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters]
	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	
	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc]
	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]

Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.

+-----------+
| RATIONALE |
+-----------+

Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of
postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization
attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer
related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:

misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  
	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.  
misc.forsale.computers.mac:
	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh
misc.forsale.computers.workstations:
	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP)
misc.forsale.computers.comm
	for all equipment related to communications such as
	modems and fax cards
misc.forsale.computers.software
	for all software for all hardware platforms, including
	operating systems
misc.forsale.computers.printers
	for all equipment relating to hard copy output
	i.e. printers and plotters
misc.forsale.computers.storage
	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives,
	hard disks and cd-roms
misc.forsale.computers.other
	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other
	miscellaneous items.
misc.forsale.computers.d
	for discussions of any nature related to the selling
	of computer products on usenet and discussion of
	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group
 	
If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass,
then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the
creation of the new groups.

+---------------+
| VOTING METHOD |
+---------------+

One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.  

You may vote Yes No or Abstain.

Possible ways to address votes include:

[email protected]
mfcvote%[email protected]	
uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			

+----------+
|  BALLOT  |
+----------+

Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).


__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d
__ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other

+----------+
| SCHEDULE |
+----------+

  1. Discussion:

     The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared
     in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on 
     28 August 1992.

  2. Voting:

     The vote will run through 28 September 1992.

     I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of
     unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the
     vote is over, I will post the final results.

 3.  Waiting Period:

     I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the
     time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.
     During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn
     the fairness of the vote taker.  

 4.  Consummation:

     After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to 
     create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be 
     made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.


If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the 
middle of October 1992.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [email protected] Thu Sep 17 14:46:14 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2735 news.groups:56676 misc.forsale:71757 misc.forsale.computers:52636 ny.forsale:2554 nj.forsale:4083 pa.forsale:1409 dc.forsale:3737 misc.misc:17377 ba.market.computers:8565
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Mike Miskulin 
Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: poster
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: High Energy Concepts
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 18:35:04 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 134

This article is the *SECOND* CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization 
of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization 
will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace 
the current misc.forsale.computers group. 

PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.

PLEASE USE THE BALLOT CONTAINED IN THIS ARTICLE
 
+----------+
| PROPOSAL |
+----------+

Create:
	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like]
	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ]
	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters]
	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	
	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc]
	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]

Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.

+-----------+
| RATIONALE |
+-----------+

Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of
postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization
attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer
related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:

misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  
	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.  
misc.forsale.computers.mac:
	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh
misc.forsale.computers.workstations:
	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP)
misc.forsale.computers.comm
	for all equipment related to communications such as
	modems and fax cards
misc.forsale.computers.software
	for all software for all hardware platforms, including
	operating systems
misc.forsale.computers.printers
	for all equipment relating to hard copy output
	i.e. printers and plotters
misc.forsale.computers.storage
	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives,
	hard disks and cd-roms
misc.forsale.computers.other
	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other
	miscellaneous items.
misc.forsale.computers.d
	for discussions of any nature related to the selling
	of computer products on usenet and discussion of
	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group
 	
If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass,
then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the
creation of the new groups.

+---------------+
| VOTING METHOD |
+---------------+

One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.  

You may vote Yes No or Abstain.

Possible ways to address votes include:

[email protected]
mfcvote%[email protected]	
uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			

+----------+
|  BALLOT  |
+----------+

Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).


__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d
__ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other

+----------+
| SCHEDULE |
+----------+

  1. Discussion:

     The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared
     in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on 
     28 August 1992.

  2. Voting:

     The vote will run through 28 September 1992.

     I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of
     unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the
     vote is over, I will post the final results.

 3.  Waiting Period:

     I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the
     time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.
     During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn
     the fairness of the vote taker.  

 4.  Consummation:

     After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to 
     create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be 
     made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.


If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the 
middle of October 1992.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [email protected] Mon Sep 28 11:13:17 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2779 news.groups:57055 misc.forsale:72590 misc.forsale.computers:54050 ny.forsale:2613 nj.forsale:4161 pa.forsale:1428 dc.forsale:3830 misc.misc:17432 ba.market.computers:8757
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin)
Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: misc.forsale.computers
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: poster
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Reply-To: Ballot Box for mfc reorg vote 
Organization: High Energy Concepts
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:55:49 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 585

This article is the THIRD & FINAL CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization 
of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization 
will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace 
the current misc.forsale.computers group. 

(vote ack at the end)

PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.

PLEASE USE THE BALLOT INCLUDED IN THIS ARTICLE TO VOTE.
+----------+
| PROPOSAL |
+----------+

Create:
	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems]
	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like]
	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ]
	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters]
	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	
	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc]
	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]

Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.

+-----------+
| RATIONALE |
+-----------+

Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of
postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization
attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer
related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:

misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  
	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.  
misc.forsale.computers.mac:
	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh
misc.forsale.computers.workstations:
	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP)
misc.forsale.computers.comm
	for all equipment related to communications such as
	modems and fax cards
misc.forsale.computers.software
	for all software for all hardware platforms, including
	operating systems
misc.forsale.computers.printers
	for all equipment relating to hard copy output
	i.e. printers and plotters
misc.forsale.computers.storage
	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives,
	hard disks and cd-roms
misc.forsale.computers.other
	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other
	miscellaneous items.
misc.forsale.computers.d
	for discussions of any nature related to the selling
	of computer products on usenet and discussion of
	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group
 	
If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass,
then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the
creation of the new groups.

+---------------+
| VOTING METHOD |
+---------------+

One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.  

You may vote Yes No or Abstain.

Possible ways to address votes include:

[email protected]
mfcvote%[email protected]	
uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			

+----------+
|  BALLOT  |
+----------+

Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).


__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage
__ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d
__ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other

+----------+
| SCHEDULE |
+----------+

  1. Discussion:

     The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared
     in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on 
     28 August 1992.

  2. Voting:

     The vote will run through 28 September 1992.

     I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of
     unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the
     vote is over, I will post the final results.

 3.  Waiting Period:

     I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the
     time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.
     During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn
     the fairness of the vote taker.  

 4.  Consummation:

     After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to 
     create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be 
     made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.


If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the 
middle of October 1992.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THE FOLLOWING HAVE SENT VALID VOTES AS OF 9/27/92:

Bernhard G. Fleuti @chx400.switch.ch, Network [email protected], 
[email protected] (Allan Rickards) 
/usr/spool/mail/gopstein 
[email protected]
Abraham Kabanda 
Adam Shostack 
Adlai Waksman 
Al Kossow 
Albert Liu 
Alex Dillard 
Alex Lecea 
Alexis Rosen 
Alicia Lee Salomon 
Allan Rickards 
Andreas Meyer 
Andrew Bressen 
Andrew Bros 
Andrew J. Kass 
Andrew J. Petrarca 
Andrew Ward 
Andrew webster 
Android Rubin 
Andy Wright 
Apollo Wong 
Arne Henrik Juul 
Arthur T. McClinton 
Austin Phelps 
B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110 
Baldwin Ng 
Barbara Bury 
Barry Margolin 
Bdale Garbee 
Beaker 
Bill Bogstad 
Bill Reeves 
Bob Kupiec 
Bob Shew 
Bob Sichler 
Bob Vaughan 
Bob Williams 
Brad Wallet 
Brent Earl 
Brian Catlin 
Brian Court 
Brian Curtiss 
Brian Kenney 
Brian Michael Patten 
Bruce Clement 
Bruce Mackey 
Casey Bahr 
Cathi Cook 
Charles Fee 
Charlie Pilzer 
Chip Rosenthal 
Chip Salzenberg 
Chris Blackmon 
Chris Ellington 
Chris Wolf 
Christophe M. Kalisiak 
Christopher Jeanrichard 
Christopher Oliver 
Christopher Wroten 
Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath 
Clark Coffman 
Cloyce. 
Curtis Chen 
D. Brian Kimmel 
D. W. James 
[email protected]
[email protected]
Dale Call 
Dana Jacobsen 
Dane Hendrix 
Darius S. Naqvi 
Darren Stalder 
Daryl Biberdorf 
Dave Friedman 
Dave Lampe 
Dave Medin 
Dave Wiseman 
David 574-7299 
David A. Berson 
David Barr 
David Heiney 
David Kline 
David Lively 
David Muir Sharnoff 
David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637 
David S. Miller 
David S.A. Stine 
David Schankin 
Dean M. Phillips 
Denis Concordel 
Desmond Fuller 
Dick Sweet 
Don Ried 
Donald H. Locker 
Doug Greenwald 
Doug Peckham 
Doug Philips 
Duckie Shiau 
Dwight A. Schwartz 
Ed Bailey 
Ed Paradis 
Edmund Burnette 
Edward Bertsch 
Edward Feustel 
Edward Reid 
Elizabeth Schwartz 
Ellen Yu 
Elliott Kleinrock 
Emru Townsend 
Eric  Gaumond 
Eric J. Bartelsman 
Eric J. Olson 
Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320 
Eric Shepherd 
Erik Seaberg 
Floyd Davidson 
Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems 
Foster Schucker 
Fred Heutte 
Fred Rump from home 
>From rare places come rare experiences. 01-Sep-1992 0818 
[email protected]
[email protected]
Gary Goldberg 
Gary Morris 
Geoff Peck 
Geoffrey Hopcraft 
George S Kaczowka 
Gerry Swetsky 
Gilles Detillieux 
Glenn Gray 
Gordon Dohle 
Graeme Hart 
Greg Franklin 
Greg Moore 
Gregory G. Woodbury 
Gregory Gulik 
Gregory M Marr 
Gwochyuan Chen 
Harry Bloomberg 
Hiroto Shibuya 
Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani 
[email protected]
Hsin-Yuan Huang 
Huma Dragonbane 
I can't drive 55 
In-Jerng Choe 
Irving Shang-Yi Hsu 
J. Eric Townsend 
J. Scott Anderson 
J. Scott Farrow 
J. Taggart Gorman 
J.W. 
Jack Decker 
Jack Previdi 
James H. Cloos Jr. 
James Offutt 
James Ralston Crawford 
Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting 
Jan Timm 
Jason Galanter 
Jay Maynard 
Jean-Jacques P. Drolet 
Jeff Dairiki 
Jeff Goldader 
Jeff Meyer 
Jeff Miller 
Jeff Szczepanski 
Jeff Wishnie 
Jeffrey C Jodoin 
Jerry Gally 
Jerry Gulla 
Jerry Leichter 
Jerry Miller 
Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A 
Jim A Snowden 
Jim Apriletti 
Jim Ault 
Jim Cabral 
Jim Liston 
Jim Vienneau  - Sun Microsystems 
Jim Williams 
Joe Kelsey 
Joel C. Justen 
John Bailey 
John Burnette 
John Conner 
John D. Zitterkopf 
John Harkin 
John Lee 
John Lynch Davis 
John Mahoney 
John Townsend 
John Will 
Jonathan B. Horen 
Jonathan Kruger 
Jonathan Thornburg 
Jong Y. Lee 
Joseph Malloy 
Joseph O. Hines Jr. 
Joshua Kronengold 
Jueychong Ong 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
Kamesh Ramakrishna 
Keith Ward N5OOD 
Keith Woodard 
Kelly Deyoe 
Ken Olum 
Kenneth Fribert 
Kent Dalton 
Kevin Nechodom 
Kevin O'Gorman 
Kevin_Story 
Khushro Shahookar 
Kim DeVaughn 
Kristen McQuillin 
L L Campbell 
Larry Gilmore 
Larry Larson 
Lee Chen 
Lee Havemann 
Leon Wicki 
Leonid V. Yakovlev 
Levin F Magruder 
Life... 
Lisa Bjarke 
Lori Inglett 
[email protected]
Marc G. Frank 
Marc Moorcroft 
MargARET D. Gibbs 
Margaret Keller 
Mario Goertzel 
Mark Adam 
Mark Ng 
Mark Purtill 
Mark Sicignano 
Mark Solsman 
Mark Vidov 
Marshall Abrams 
Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services 
Matthew C. Jones 
Matthew Coriale (x37975 
Matthew E. Merkelson 
Michael Browner 
Michael Chang 
Michael F Horgan 
Michael Faurot 
Michael George Buening 
Michael L. Hall 
Michael P. Deffendall 
Michael P. Deignan 
Michael R Linksvayer 
Michael Schuh 
Mike A. Pasek 
Mike Campbell  
Mike Dodd 
Mike Herman 
Mike Johnston 
Mike Miskulin 
Mike Murphy 
Mike Shirley 
Munkacsy 
Murray Nesbitt 
Nathan Lee 
Nick Duffek 
Noe Garza 
Not A Random Name 
[email protected]
Oleg Rovner 
OmniSoft 
[email protected]
Otto Heuer #3 
[email protected]
Pat Kane 
Patrick Clancey 
Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems) 
Paul Alexander Gomme 
Paul C. Romano 
Paul Hutmacher 
Paul Robichaux 
[email protected]
Pete Boulay 
Peter C. Sun 
Peter Clitherow 
Peter Vines 
Peter Von Ege 
Peter W. De Bonte 
Phil Kramer 
RAVEN Winter 
[email protected]
[email protected]
Randolph Turner 
Randy Bush 
Ray Lampman 
Rich Brennan 
Richard Gorton 
Richard H. Miller 
Richard Kulawiec 
Richard P. Muller 
Richard Pan  
Richard Reiner 
Rick O'Shea 
Rick Rodman 
Rob Cartaino 
Robert J. McNamara 
Robert Landry 
Robert Myhre 
Robert Rhode 
Ron HALL 
Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199 
Russ Jorgensen 
[email protected]
Sam Hill Cabal, DS 
Samuel Roy Helwig 
Sandy Bendremer 
Sandy Duveneck 
Sascha Wildner 
Scott Barman 
Scott Blachowicz 
Scott Curry 
Scott D. Curtin 
Scott I. Logan 
Sean Petty 
Soroka Alexander Vasilevich 
Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow 
Stephan Heilmayr 
Stephan Muhs 
Steve Gibbons 
Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service 
Steve Turner 
Steven White 
Stu Labovitz 
Stuart M Lichtenthal 
Stuart Milton 
Stuart S Goldstone 
Sunil Gupta 
System Operator 
Ted Koppel 
Theo Deraadt 
Thomas Aaron Insel 
Thomas Arneberg 
Tim Ramsey 
Tim Sullivan 
Tim Tyhurst 
Timothy VanFosson 
Timothy W Tjarks 
Todd Cooper 
Todd Heatherton 
Todd Mummert 
Tom Atwater 
Tom Fitzgerald 
Tom Haapanen 
Tomislav Lozic 
Tony Matt 
Toshi Takeuchi 
Tuomas Siren 
Ulf Bahrenfuss 
V Balaji 
Valerie E Polichar 
Vern 
Vijay Tulsiani 
Vincent Hurtubise 
Wesner L. Precil 
William R. Quayle 
William Y. Lai 
Yat Lok L. Cheung 
Zeke Koch 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
bill d'Amico 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
dan  cornett 
[email protected]
deborah samuels 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
eh? 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
gordon e. banks 
[email protected]
gregory d moncreaff 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
lhanson 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
moebius 
[email protected] (Roger Barth)
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
rodrigo vanegas 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
shawn 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
the stupid one 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
victor porguen 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
william E Davidsen 

From [email protected] Fri Oct  9 16:10:39 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2816 news.groups:57597 misc.forsale:73452 misc.forsale.computers:55348 ny.forsale:2678 nj.forsale:4254 pa.forsale:1468 dc.forsale:3922 misc.misc:17532 ba.market.computers:8998
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin)
Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Approved: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: High Energy Concepts
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:21:58 GMT
Message-ID: 
Lines: 515

    Proposal    Yes   No  Abs    Margin  % in favor    Result
  ==========    =============    ==================    ======
        comm    307  172    9      135     64.1%        FAIL
           d    341  133   14      208     71.9%        PASS
         mac    343  137    8      206     71.5%        PASS

       other    325  149   14      176     68.6%        PASS
    pc-clone    344  138    6      206     71.4%        PASS
    printers    310  168   10      142     64.9%        FAIL

    software    320  164    4      156     66.1%        FAIL
     storage    303  173   12      130     63.7%        FAIL
 workstation    326  148   14      178     68.8%        PASS


488 total votes
239(49.0%) all-yes votes
105(21.5%) all-no votes
0(0.0%) all-abstain votes.

Proposals needed 100 more yes votes than no votes and at least twice
as many yes votes as no votes.

Attached is a list of the individual votes which were received and
counted.  The listing is given in rudimentary alphabetic order.
Votes are arranged in the same order as the above summary.

NYANANNNN  /usr/spool/mail/gopstein 
YYYYYYYYY  Abraham Kabanda 
YYYYYYYYY  Adam Shostack 
YYYYYYYYY  Adlai Waksman 
NNNNNNNNN  Al Kossow 
YYYYYNYYN  Alan Peterman 
NYNYNNYNN  Alex Dillard 
YYYYYYYYY  Alex Lecea 
YYYYYYYYY  Alex Matulich 
YYYYYYYYY  Alexis Rosen 
YYYYYYYYY  Alicia Lee Salomon 
YYYYYYYYY  Allan Rickards 
NNNNNNNNN  Andreas Meyer 
YYYYYYYYN  Andrew Bressen 
YYYYYYYYY  Andrew Bros 
NNNNNNNNN  "Andrew J. Kass" 
NNNNNNNNN  "Andrew J. Petrarca" 
NYYYYNNNN  Andrew Ward 
YYYYYYYYY  Andrew webster 
NNNNNNNNN  Android Rubin 
NNNNNNNNN  Andy Wright 
NNNNNNNNN  Anthony Wei 
YYAYYYYYY  "Antonio J Salerno, Jr" 
NNNNNNNNN  Apollo Wong 
NNNNNNNNN  Arne Henrik Juul 
YYYYYYYYY  "Arthur T. McClinton" 
YYYYYYYYY  Austin Phelps 
YYYYYYYYY  "B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110" 
YAYYYAYAY  Baldwin Ng 
YYYYYYYYY  Barbara Bury 
YYYYYNNNY  Barry Margolin 
NNNNNNNNN  Bdale Garbee 
YYYYYYYYY  Beaker 
YYYYYYYYY  Bill Bogstad 
NAYYYNNNY  Bill Reeves 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  Bob Kupiec 
YAYYYYYYY  Bob Shew 
YYYYYYYYY  Bob Sichler 
YYYYYYYYY  Bob Vaughan 
YYYYYYYYY  Bob Williams 
NNYNYNYNY  Bob Witmer 
NYNNNNNNN  Brad Wallet 
NNNNNNNNN  Brent Earl 
YYYYYYYYY  Brian Catlin 
NNNNNNNNN  Brian Court 
YYYYYYNYY  Brian Curtiss 
YYYYYYYYY  Brian D Pollard 
NNYYYNYNY  Brian Kenney 
NYNNNNNNN  Brian Michael Patten 
YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Clement 
YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Mackey 
YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Oneel  
AYYNYYYYY  Casey Bahr 
YYYYYYYYY  Cathi Cook 
YYYYYYYYY  Chad Burkins 
YYYNYYYYY  Charles Fee 
YYYYYYYYY  Charlie Pilzer 
YYYYYYYYY  Chih-Pong Lin 
NYNNNNNNN  Chip Rosenthal 
YYYYYYYYY  Chip Salzenberg 
NNNNNNNNN  Chris Blackmon 
YYYYYYYYY  Chris Ellington 
NNNNNNNNN  Chris Penington 
NYNNNNNNN  Chris Wolf 
NNNNNNNNN  "Christophe M. Kalisiak" 
YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Jeanrichard 
YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Oliver 
YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Wroten 
NNNNNNNNN  Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath 
NNNYNNYNN  Chuck Farmer 
YYYYYYYYY  Clark Coffman 
YYYYYYYYY  "Cloyce." 
YYYAYYYAA  Craig Carpenter Harris Corp/ISD Phone (407)984-6444 Fax (407)984-6327 
NNNNNNNNN  Craig Presnell 
NNNNNNNNN  Curtis Chen 
YYYYYYYYY  "D. Brian Kimmel" 
YYYYYYYYY  "D. W. James" 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NYNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Dale Call 
YYYYYAYYY  Dana Jacobsen 
NAYYYNYAA  Dane Hendrix 
YYYYYYYYY  "Darius S. Naqvi" 
NYNNNNNNN  Dark Elf <[email protected]>
NYYYYNYNY  Darren Stalder 
NYNNNNNNN  Daryl Biberdorf 
NNNNNNNNN  Dave Frederick 
YYYYYYYYY  Dave Friedman 
YYYYYYYYY  Dave Lampe 
NNNNNNNNN  Dave Medin 
YYYYYYYYY  Dave Wiseman 
YYYYYYYYY  David 574-7299 
YYYYYYYYY  "David A. Berson" 
YYYYYYYYY  David Barr 
NNNNNNNNN  David Heiney 
YAYYYYYYY  David Kline 
YYYYYYYYY  David Lively 
YYYYYYYYY  David Muir Sharnoff 
YYYYYYYYA  "David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637" 
YYYYYYYYY  "David S. Miller" 
YYYYYYYYY  "David S.A. Stine" 
YNYYYYYYY  David Schankin 
YYYYYYYYY  "Dean M. Phillips" 
NYYYYYYNY  Denis Concordel 
YYYYYYYYY  Desmond Fuller 
AYYYYYAAA  Dick Sweet 
YYYYYYYYY  Don Ried 
YYYAYYYYY  Don Sawtelle 
YYYYYYYYY  "Donald H. Locker" 
YYYYYYYYY  Doug Greenwald 
YYYYYYYYY  Doug Peckham 
NNNNNNNNN  Doug Philips 
NNNNNNNNN  Douglas Plant 
NNNNNNNNN  Duckie Shiau 
YYYYYYYYY  "Dwight A. Schwartz" 
NNNNNNNNN  Ed Bailey 
YYYYYYYYY  Ed Paradis 
YYYYNYYYY  Edmund Burnette 
YYYYYYYYY  Edward Bertsch 
YYYYYYYYY  Edward Feustel 
YYYYYYYYY  Edward Reid 
NNYNYNNNN  Elizabeth Schwartz 
NYYYYYYNY  Ellen Yu 
AYAYYYYYY  Elliott Kleinrock 
YYYYYYYYY  Emru Townsend 
NYYYYNNNY  Eric  Gaumond 
NYYYYNYNY  "Eric J. Bartelsman" 
NNNNNNNNN  "Eric J. Olson" 
YYYYYYYYY  "Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320" 
YYNYNYYYN  Eric Shepherd 
YYYYYYNYY  Erik Seaberg 
YYYYYYYYY  F Harvell 
NNNNNNNNN  Floyd Davidson 
NYYYYNNNY  "Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems" 
NNNNNNNNN  Foster Schucker 
NNNNNNNNN  Fred Heutte 
YYYYYYYYY  Fred Rump from home 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Gabe Helou 
YYYYYYYYY  Gary Goldberg 
YYYNYYYYY  Gary Morris 
YYYYYYYYY  Geoff Peck 
YYNYYYYYY  Geoffrey Hopcraft 
NNNNNNNNN  George S Kaczowka 
NYYYYNYNY  Gerry Swetsky 
YYYYYYYYY  Gilles Detillieux 
YYYYYYYYY  Glenn Gray 
YYYYYYYYY  Gordon Dohle 
YYYYYYYYY  Graeme Hart 
YYYNYYYYY  Greg Franklin 
NYNNNYYYN  Greg Moore 
YYYYYYYYY  "Gregory G. Woodbury" 
NYNNNNYNN  Gregory Gulik 
YYYYYYYYY  Gregory M Marr 
NNNNNNNNN  Gwochyuan Chen 
YYYYYYYYY  Harry Bloomberg 
YYYYYYYYY  Hiroto Shibuya 
YAYYYYYYY  Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Hsin-Yuan Huang 
YAYAYNYNA  Huma Dragonbane 
NYYYNYYYY  I can't drive 55 
NYNNNNNNN  In-Jerng Choe 
YYYYYYYYY  Irving Shang-Yi Hsu 
YYYYYYYYY  "J. Eric Townsend" 
NNNNNNNNN  "J. Scott Anderson" 
YYYYYYYYY  "J. Scott Farrow" 
YYYYYYYYY  "J. Taggart Gorman" 
NYYYYNYNY  "J.W." 
YYYYYYYYY  JOHN FISKIO-LASSETER 
NNNNNNNNN  JOHN HEIM 
YAAYYYNYA  Jack Decker 
YYYYYYYYY  Jack McKinney 
YYYYYYYYY  Jack Previdi 
YYYYYYYYY  "James H. Cloos Jr." 
YYYYYYYYY  James Offutt 
YYYYYYYYY  James Ralston Crawford 
YYYYYYYYY  "Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting" 
NYYYYNYNY  Jan Sondergaard 
YYYYYYNYY  Jan Timm 
NNNNNNNNN  Jason Galanter 
YYYYYYYYY  Jay Maynard 
NNNNNNNNN  "Jean-Jacques P. Drolet" 
YYYYYYNNY  Jeff Dairiki 
NNNNNNNNN  Jeff Goldader 
YYYYYYNNY  Jeff Meyer 
NYNNNNNNN  Jeff Miller 
YYYYYYYYY  Jeff Szczepanski 
NYYNYYNYY  Jeff Wishnie 
YYYYYYYYY  Jeffrey C Jodoin 
YYYAYYNYY  Jeffrey Komori 
YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Gally 
YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Gulla 
YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Leichter 
NYNNNNNNN  Jerry Miller 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A 
NNNNNNNNN  Jim A Snowden 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Apriletti 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Ault 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Cabral 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Liston 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Liston 
NNNNNNNNN  Jim Vienneau  - Sun Microsystems 
YYYYYYYYY  Jim Williams 
YYYYYYYYY  Joe Kelsey 
YYYYYYYYY  "Joel C. Justen" 
YYYYYYYYY  "Johan A. Grape" 
YYYYYYYYY  John Bailey 
NNNNNNNNN  John Burnette 
NNNNNNNNN  John Conner 
NYAYYANNA  "John D. Zitterkopf" 
NYNNNNNNN  John Harkin 
NNNNNNNNN  John Lee 
YYYYYYYYY  John Lynch Davis 
NYNNNYYNN  John Mahoney 
NYYYYNNNY  John Townsend 
YYYYYYYYY  "John W. Schwegler" 
NNNNNNNNN  John Will 
NNNNNNNNN  "Jonathan B. Horen" 
YYNNNYYYN  Jonathan Kruger 
YYYYYYYYY  Jonathan Thornburg 
YYYYYNYYN  "Jong Y. Lee" 
YYYYYYYYY  Joseph Malloy 
YYYYYYYYY  "Joseph O. Hines Jr." 
YYYYYYNYY  Joshua Kronengold 
YYYYYYNYY  Jueychong Ong 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NYNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYAAYY  [email protected]
AYYYAYYYY  Kamesh Ramakrishna 
YYYYYYYYY  "Karl A. Nyberg" 
YYAAAAYYA  Keith Ward N5OOD 
YYYYYYYYY  Keith Woodard 
YYYYYNYYN  Kelly Deyoe 
YYYYYYYYY  Ken Olum 
NNNNNNNNN  Kenneth Fribert 
YYYYYNNYY  Kent Dalton 
YYYYYYYYY  Kevin Nechodom 
YYYYYYYYY  Kevin O'Gorman 
YYYYYYYYY  Kevin_Story 
NNNNNNNNN  Khushro Shahookar 
NNNNNNNNN  Kim DeVaughn 
YYYYYYYYY  Kristen McQuillin 
YYYYYYYYY  L L Campbell 
NNNNNNNNN  Larry Gilmore 
YYYYYYYYY  Larry Larson 
YNNYYYYYY  Lee Chen 
YYYYYYYYY  Lee Havemann 
NNNNNNNNN  Leon Wicki 
YYYYYYYYY  "Leonid V. Yakovlev" 
YYYYYYYYY  Levin F Magruder 
YYYAYYYYY  "Life..." 
YYYYYYYYY  Lisa Bjarke 
YYYYYYYYY  Lisa Parry 
YYYYYYYYY  Lori Inglett 
YAYYYYYYA  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  "Marc G. Frank" 
NNNNNNANN  Marc Moorcroft 
NNNNNNNNN  "MargARET D. Gibbs" 
AAYAYAYAA  Margaret Keller 
YYYYYYYYY  Mario Goertzel 
NYYYYNYNN  Mark Adam 
NNYNNNNNN  Mark Ng 
YYYYYYYYY  Mark Purtill 
NNYYYNYNY  Mark Sicignano 
NNNNNNNNN  Mark Solsman 
NNNNNNNNN  Mark Vidov 
YYYYYYYYY  Marshall Abrams 
YYYYYYYYY  Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services 
YYYYYYYYY  Matthew Blum 
YYYYYYYYY  "Matthew C. Jones" 
YYYYYYNYY  "Matthew Coriale (x37975" 
YYYYYYYYY  "Matthew E. Merkelson" 
NNNNNNNNN  Michael Browner 
NNNNNNYNN  Michael Chang 
YYYYYYNYY  Michael F Horgan 
YYYYYYYYY  Michael Faurot 
YYYYYYYAY  "Michael G. Reed" 
NAYYYNYNY  Michael George Buening 
YYYYYYYYY  "Michael L. Hall" 
YYYYYYYYY  "Michael P. Deffendall" 
YYYYYYYYY  Michael R Linksvayer 
YYYYYYYYY  Michael Schuh 
YYYYYYYYY  "Mike A. Pasek" 
YYYYYYYYY  Mike Campbell  
NNNNNNNNN  Mike Dodd 
NNYYYYYNN  Mike Herman 
YYYYYYYYY  Mike Johnston 
YYYYYYYYY  Mike Miskulin 
NNNNNNNNN  Mike Murphy 
YYYYYYYYY  Mike Shirley 
YYYYYYYYY  Munkacsy 
YYYYYYYYY  Murray Nesbitt 
YYYYYYYYY  Nathan Lee 
YYYYYYYYY  Nick Duffek 
NNNNNNNNN  Noe Garza 
NNYNYNYYN  Not A Random Name 
NNYNYNYNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  Oleg Rovner 
YNYYYYNYY  OmniSoft 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Otto Heuer #3 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNYNN  Pat Kane 
YYYYYYYYY  Patrick Clancey 
YYYYYYYYY  "Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems)" 
NNNNNNNNN  Patrick Wei 
NNNNNNNNN  Paul Alexander Gomme 
NNNNNNNNN  "Paul C. Romano" 
NNNNNNNNN  Paul Hutmacher 
YYYYYYNYY  Paul Robichaux 
YYYYYYYYY  Paul Vargo 
NNNNNNNNN  Paul Wei 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYNNYNNY  Pete Boulay 
YYYYYYYYY  "Peter C. Sun" 
YAYAAAYYY  Peter Clitherow 
AYYYYYYNA  Peter Vines 
YYYYYYYYY  Peter Von Ege 
NNYNYNNNN  Phil Kramer 
AYYYYAYAY  RAVEN Winter 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Randolph Turner 
NNNNNNNNN  Randy Bush 
YYYNYYYYY  Ray Lampman 
YYYYYYYYY  Rich Brennan 
YYYYYYYYY  Richard Gorton 
NNYNYNNNN  "Richard H. Miller" 
YYYAYYNYY  Richard Kulawiec 
YYYYYYYYY  "Richard P. Muller" 
YYYYYYYYY  Richard Pan  
YYYYYYYYY  Richard Reiner 
NYNNNNNNN  Rick DeMattia 
NNNNNNNNN  Rick O'Shea 
NNNNNNNNN  Rick Rodman 
NNNNNNNNN  Rob Cartaino 
NNYYYNYNY  "Robert J. McNamara" 
NNNNNNNNN  Robert Landry 
YYYYYYYYY  Robert Myhre 
YYYYYYYYY  Robert Rhode 
NNNNNNNNN  Rodrick Su 
YYYYYYYYY  Ron HALL 
YYYYYYYYY  "Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199" 
NNNNNNNNN  Russ Jorgensen 
YYYNYYYYY  Ryan Waldron 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYAYYYYY  "Sam Hill Cabal, DS" 
NNNNNNNNN  Samuel Roy Helwig 
YYYYYYYYY  Sandy Bendremer 
YYYYYYYYY  Sandy Duveneck 
YYYYYYYYY  Sascha Wildner 
NNNNNNNNN  Scott Barman 
YYYYYYYYY  Scott Blachowicz 
YYYYYYYYY  Scott Curry 
YYYYYYYYY  "Scott I. Logan" 
YYYYYYYYY  Sean Petty 
YYAYYYYAY  Soroka Alexander Vasilevich 
YYYYYYYYY  "Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow" 
YYYYYYYYY  Stephan Heilmayr 
NNNNNNNNN  Stephan Muhs 
NYYYYYYYY  "Stephen P. Potter" 
YYYYYYYAY  Steve Gibbons 
NNNNNNNNN  Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service 
YYYYYYYYY  Steve Turner 
NYYYYNNYY  Steven White 
NYYYYNYNY  Stu Labovitz 
NNNNNNNNN  Stuart M Lichtenthal 
YYYYYYYYY  Stuart Milton 
YYYYYYYYY  Stuart S Goldstone 
YYYAYYYYY  Sunil Gupta 
YYYNYYNYY  System Operator 
NNNNNNNNN  Ted Koppel 
NNNNNNNNN  Theo Deraadt 
NNNNNNNNN  Thomas Aaron Insel 
YNYYYYNYY  Thomas Arneberg 
NYNNNNNNN  "Thomas C. Burns" 
YYYYYYYYY  Tim Ramsey 
NNNNNNNNN  Tim Sullivan 
YYYYYYYYY  Tim Tyhurst 
YNYYYAYAY  Timothy VanFosson 
YNYYYYAYY  Timothy W Tjarks 
YYYYYYYYY  Todd Cooper 
YYYYYYYYY  Todd Heatherton 
NNNNNNNNN  Todd Mummert 
YYYYYYYYY  Tom Atwater 
NNNNNNNNN  Tom Fitzgerald 
YAYYYYYYY  Tom Haapanen 
NYNNNNNNN  "Tom. Adams 529-7860" 
YYYYYYYYY  Tomislav Lozic 
YYAYYYNYY  Tony Matt 
YYYYAYNAA  Toshi Takeuchi 
YYYYYYYYY  Tuomas Siren 
NYYYYNYNY  Ulf Bahrenfuss 
NNNNNNNNN  V Balaji 
YNYYYYYYY  Valerie E Polichar 
NYYYYNNNY  Vern 
NNNNNNNNN  Vijay Tulsiani 
YYYYYYYYY  Vincent Hurtubise 
ANYAAYYYY  "Wesner L. Precil" 
YYYYYYYYY  Will Fitzgerald 
YYYYYYYYY  "William R. Quayle" 
YYYYYYYYY  "William Y. Lai" 
NNNNNNNNN  "Yat Lok L. Cheung" 
YYYYYYNYY  Zeke Koch 
YYNNNYYNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  "andrew m. boardman" 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
AYYYYAYAY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  bill d'Amico 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  Bernhard G. Fleuti 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  dan  cornett 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYNNY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  deborah samuels 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  eh? 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YNYYYYYYY  "gordon e. banks" 
YNYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  gregory d moncreaff 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NYNANNNNA  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  james keen U 
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNYYYNYNY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NYNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NAYNYNNNA  lhanson 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NYYNYNNNY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  moebius 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] (Roger Barth)
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYAYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YNYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYNYYYNNY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  rodrigo vanegas 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  shawn 
NYYYYNNNY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NYNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  the stupid one 
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
YYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNYYYNYNN  victor porguen 
NYYYYYYYY  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  [email protected]
NNNNNNNNN  william E Davidsen 

From [email protected] Wed Jun 29 13:30:19 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d
Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 29 Jun 1994 10:51:03 -0400
Organization: Software Metrics Inc.
Lines: 100
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5295 news.groups:107438 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:60924 misc.forsale.computers.other:28619 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:10689 misc.forsale.computers.mac:31556 misc.forsale.computers.d:5738

                        REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
                             on creating
                   misc.forsale.computers.storage
                   misc.forsale.computers.communications
                   misc.forsale.computers.monitors
                   misc.forsale.computers.printers


RATIONALE
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of
    subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software:
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
        misc.forsale.computers.other
        misc.forsale.computers.workstation
        comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*)

    While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a
    Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not 
    take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
    is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
    laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
    usable on a wide variety of equipment.

    Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
    But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
    But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
    be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
    market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be cropssposted
    to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

    Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
    cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
    will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
    also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
    .workstation.

CURRENT READERSHIP DATA
        +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
        |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
        |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
        |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
        |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
        |     |     |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders
        |     |     |      |    |      |    who read this group.
        V     V     V      V    V      V  
 109 150000  1243   72%  5486   4.9    2.5%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 
 172 14633+0  1041   70%  2935   2.6    2.1%  misc.forsale.computers.mac 
 194 120000   989   72%  2233   1.6    2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.other 
 331  99000   819   69%   967   0.7    1.6%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation 
 445  86000   717   69%   361   0.4    1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.d 

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Hardware-dependent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.

    misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most
        commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but
        also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and
        cabling systems.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.

DISCUSSION AND VOTING
    The discussion period lasts for 21 days from the date in the header
    of this article.  All discussion should take place in news.groups.
    The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if necessary,
    a second, revised RFD will be posted prior to the end of the 
    discussion period.

    A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion
    period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.

    This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation
    guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please
    refer to this document if you have questions about the process.
-- 
[ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "the edsel is here to stay"                            -- henry ford, 1957 ]

From [email protected] Thu Jul 28 17:24:42 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d
Subject: 2nd RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 28 Jul 1994 16:26:15 -0400
Organization: Software Metrics Inc.
Lines: 151
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5401 news.groups:110020 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:66875 misc.forsale.computers.other:30921 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:11576 misc.forsale.computers.mac:34316 misc.forsale.computers.d:6153

                        REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
                             on creating
                misc.forsale.computers.communications
                    misc.forsale.computers.memory
                   misc.forsale.computers.monitors
                   misc.forsale.computers.printers
                    misc.forsale.computers.storage
                             and renaming
              misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer
  misc.forsale.computers.mac to misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific
misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone to misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific
    misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion

RATIONALE
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of
    subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software:
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
        misc.forsale.computers.other
        misc.forsale.computers.workstation
        comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*)

    While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a
    Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not 
    take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
    is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
    laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
    usable on a wide variety of equipment.

    Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
    But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
    But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
    be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
    market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted
    to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

    Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
    cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
    will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
    also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
    .workstation.

	Also, it is proposed that the .pc-clone and .mac groups be renamed to
	.pc-specific and .mac-specific to make it clear that these groups are
	intended for PC- and Macintosh-specific hardware only, and not for
	items such as printers, monitors and hard disks.  It is proposed that
	the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations
	may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable 
	of running Unix.

	Finally, it is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to
	misc.forsale.non-computer, as it is currently inundated with a variety
	of assorted and various postings about computer equipment.  A clear
	name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other 
	than computers.  Similarly, the .discussion group name will be far more
	obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.

CURRENT READERSHIP DATA
        +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
        |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
        |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
        |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
        |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
        |     |     |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders
        |     |     |      |    |      |    who read this group.
        V     V     V      V    V      V  
 109 150000  1243   72%  5486   4.9    2.5%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 
 172 14633+0  1041   70%  2935   2.6    2.1%  misc.forsale.computers.mac 
 194 120000   989   72%  2233   1.6    2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.other 
 331  99000   819   69%   967   0.7    1.6%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation 
 445  86000   717   69%   361   0.4    1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.d 

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or
		buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms:
		SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have
		or need.

    misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most
        commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but
        also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and
        cabling systems.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific is for articles to buy and sell
        computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and
		software that is specific to the PC "clone" platform.  It is not
		for platform-independent equipment.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific is for articles to buy and sell
        computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and
		software that is specific to the Macintosh platform.  It is not
		for platform-independent equipment.

    misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to
		the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
		and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
		or buy computer equipment.

COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING
    There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically
	outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  However, it is
	not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly
	what would constitute a commercial posting.  Further comments on this
	topic are welcome.

DISCUSSION AND VOTING
    The discussion period will last at least a further 10 days from the
    date in the header of this 2nd RFD.  All discussion should take place
    in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,
    and if necessary, a final, further revised RFD will be posted prior
    to the end of the discussion period.

    A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion
    period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.

    This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation
    guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please
    refer to this document if you have questions about the process.
-- 
[ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "where all men think alike, no one thinks very much"     -- walter lippman ]

From [email protected] Tue Aug 16 16:36:30 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale,misc.wanted
Subject: 3rd RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 15 Aug 1994 15:08:55 -0400
Organization: Software Metrics Inc.
Lines: 311
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5506 news.groups:112530 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:70734 misc.forsale.computers.other:32369 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12189 misc.forsale.computers.mac:36202 misc.forsale.computers.d:6531 misc.forsale:153591 misc.wanted:45492

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
                           on creating
              misc.forsale.computers.communications
                  misc.forsale.computers.memory
                 misc.forsale.computers.monitors
                 misc.forsale.computers.printers
                 misc.forsale.computers.storage
          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables
         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards
            misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards
           misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
           misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
             misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
              misc.forsale.computers.other.software
              misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
                misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

                          and removing
                   misc.forsale.computers.mac
                  misc.forsale.computers.other
                 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone

                          and renaming
	 misc.forsale.* HIERARCHY to misc.marketplace.*
            misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer
  misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion


INTRODUCTION
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,
    with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups
    for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those
    participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to
    create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a
    result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the
    misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;
    *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand
    the reasoning behind the proposals.

RATIONALE
    1.  Non-computer group
	It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-
	forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety
	of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the
	group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining
	this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-
	related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.

    2.  Platform-independent hardware
	While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look
	for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does
	not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
	is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
	laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
	usable on a wide variety of equipment.

	Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
	But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
	But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
	be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
	market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted
	to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

	Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
	cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
	will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
	also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
	.workstation.

	Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage,
	.memory, .communications and .printers.

    3.  PC hardware
	The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of
	200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone
	be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
	PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
	monitors and hard disks.

	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
	heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,
	.software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that
	monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and
	.misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the
	hardware-independent groups.

    4.  Macintosh hardware
	The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over
	100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be
	renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
	Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
	monitors and hard disks.

	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
	heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, .video-
	cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not
	belong in this group), .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,
	modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.

    5.  Workstation hardware
	It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to
	.unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs
	and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the
	traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.

    6.  Discussion group
	Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to
	new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This
	will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that
	are currently posted to the .d group.

    7.  Hierarchy rename
	In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,
	a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.
	However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename
	of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.

    8.	Commercial posts
	As it is impossible to prevent commercial posts; as there is no
	overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be banned; and 
	as it is not clear when commercial posts are "below market prices"
	(as per the FAQ), it is proposed that all commercial posts in the
	misc.forsale.* groups must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the
	Subject: line.

	A keyword flagging mechanism will allow most readers to eliminate
	commercial posts (using KILL files) if they so wish; it will enable
	others to find the commercial posts easily, if they prefer to deal
	with businesses only; and it is a relatively harmless addition for
	business' posts, posing little incentive to ignore this guideline.

CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)

	   +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
	   |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
	   |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
	   |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
	   |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
	   |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders
	   |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.
	   V     V     V      V    V    V  
      6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale 
     87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 
    151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac 
    160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other 
    325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation
    446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d 
    957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *
   2056   7200   218  25%    128  0.0  0.4%  misc.forsale.wanted 

    * obsolete group

    [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the
     calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of
     the current proposal.]

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]

    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.  Commercial postings must
	contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or
	buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms:
	SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have
	or need.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL:
	in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most
        commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but
        also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and
        cabling systems.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword
        COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword
        COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.  Commercial postings must
	contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible computer systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows-based software.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  Commercial postings must
        contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
	computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
	.communications).  Commercial postings must contain the keyword
	COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell Macintosh-based software.  Commercial postings must contain
        the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  Commercial
        postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
	computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
	.communications).  Commercial postings must contain the keyword
	COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

    misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to
	the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
	and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
	or buy computer equipment.

    misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and
	all non-computer-related items.  Commercial postings must contain
	the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.

COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING
    There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically
    outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  However, it is
    not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly
    what would constitute a commercial posting.  Further, it is not currently
    possible to effectively enforce a ban on commercial posting, even if
    such posts were clearly identifiable.

    As a result, it is proposed that all commercial postings must include
    the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the subject line.  This allows everyone to
    use the groups as currently, and yet allows people to easily kill the
    commercial posts if they so desire.  Further, it is neither an onerous
    nor a incapacitating requirement for commerical posters, who should
    thus hopefully be willing to co-operate with such a scheme.

DISCUSSION AND VOTING
    The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the
    date in the header of this 3rd RFD.  All discussion should take place
    in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,
    and if major changes are necessary, a final, 4th, RFD will be posted
    prior to the voting.

    A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion
    period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.

    This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation
    guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please
    refer to this document if you have questions about the process.
-- 
[ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "work for something because it is good, not simply because                 ]
[  it has a chance to succeed."                              -- vaclav havel ]

From [email protected] Thu Sep  1 11:15:57 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale
Subject: 4th RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization, biz.marketplace.*
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 1 Sep 1994 11:09:16 -0400
Organization: Software Metrics Inc.
Lines: 368
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5579 news.groups:114695 biz.config:292 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:74439 misc.forsale.computers.other:33635 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12729 misc.forsale.computers.mac:37943 misc.forsale.computers.d:6793 misc.forsale:156519

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
                           on creating
                  misc.forsale.computers.modems
             misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware
                  misc.forsale.computers.memory
                 misc.forsale.computers.monitors
                 misc.forsale.computers.printers
                 misc.forsale.computers.storage
          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables
         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards
            misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
          misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards
           misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
           misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
             misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
              misc.forsale.computers.other.software
              misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
                misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

                          and removing
		       misc.forsale.wanted
                   misc.forsale.computers.mac
                  misc.forsale.computers.other
                 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone

                          and renaming
            misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer
  misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discuss

[ AND creating biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of   ]
[ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ]
[ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ]
[ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in the traditional CFV.   ]



INTRODUCTION
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,
    with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups
    for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those
    participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to
    create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a
    result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the
    misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;
    *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand
    the reasoning behind the proposals.

RATIONALE
    1.  Non-computer group
	It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-
	forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety
	of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the
	group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining
	this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-
	related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.

    2.  Platform-independent hardware
	While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look
	for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does
	not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
	is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
	laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
	usable on a wide variety of equipment.

	Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
	But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
	But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
	be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
	market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted
	to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

	Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
	cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
	will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
	also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
	.workstation.

	Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage,
	.memory, .modems, .network-hardware and .printers.  It was originally
	proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and
	.network-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.

    3.  PC hardware
	The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of
	200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone
	be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
	PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
	monitors and hard disks.

	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
	heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,
	.software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that
	monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and
	.misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the
	hardware-independent groups.

	Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
	name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
	using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
	the reasons outlined above.

    4.  Macintosh hardware
	The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over
	100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be
	renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
	Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
	monitors and hard disks.

	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
	heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, .video-
	cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not
	belong in this group), .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,
	modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.

	Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
	name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
	using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
	the reasons outlined above.

    5.  Workstation hardware
	It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to
	.unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs
	and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the
	traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.

    6.  Discussion group
	Finally, the .discuss group name will be far more obvious to
	new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This
	will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that
	are currently posted to the .d group.

    7.  Hierarchy rename
	In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,
	a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.
	However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename
	of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.

    9.	Wanted group
	It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in
	the specific newsgroups, and not in misc.forsale.wanted, which
	is barely used (only 2% of the traffic of the current .pc-clone
	group) and poorly propagated.  As a result, it is proposed that
	the current .wanted group be removed.

    9.	Commercial posts
	There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the
	misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on
	whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is
	no way to enforce such a ban.

	As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new
	hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group
	hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This
	will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the
	buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller.
	It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all 
	commercial postings.

	The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well proagated; most active
	groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat
	lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average -- and
	much better than misc.forsale.wanted's 25%.  An active marketplace
	hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* propagation.

	The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond
	to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the
	format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding misc.-
	marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.


CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)

	   +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
	   |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
	   |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
	   |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
	   |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
	   |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders
	   |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.
	   V     V     V      V    V    V  
      6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale 
     87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 
    151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac 
    160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other 
    325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation
    446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d 
    957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *
   2056   7200   218  25%    128  0.0  0.4%  misc.forsale.wanted 

    * obsolete group

    [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the
     calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of
     the current proposal.]

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    [Note that`all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]

    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory
        (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,
        DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy
        hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,
        v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category
	contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,
        terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.  
	No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.  
	No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.
	No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy
        and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to
        buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
	computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
	.communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
	computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
	.communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and
        sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.
	No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and
        sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes
        and workstations.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell
        other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale. computers.*
	subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.discuss (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discuss is for discussion relating to
	the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
	and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
	or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and
	all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.

    The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the
    corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last 
    sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for
    all biz.marketplace.* groups.

COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING
    There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically
    outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the
    proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is
    proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale
    groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of 
    business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still
    be considered acceptable.

    All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*
    group.

DISCUSSION AND VOTING
    The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the
    date in the header of this 4th RFD.  All discussion should take place
    in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,
    and if major changes are necessary, a final, 5th, RFD will be posted
    prior to the voting.

    A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion
    period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.

    This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation
    guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please
    refer to this document if you have questions about the process.

-- 
[ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"                      ]


From [email protected] Tue Oct  4 15:36:04 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale
Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization
Followup-To: poster
Date: 4 Oct 1994 14:36:45 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 464
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: 
Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5735 news.groups:118935 biz.config:417 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:81937 misc.forsale.computers.other:36309 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:13976 misc.forsale.computers.mac:41685 misc.forsale.computers.d:7395 misc.forsale:162181

                      FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                     misc.forsale.* reorganization

To CREATE the unmoderated groups: 
misc.forsale.computers.modems
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware
misc.forsale.computers.memory
misc.forsale.computers.monitors
misc.forsale.computers.printers
misc.forsale.computers.storage
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
misc.forsale.computers.other.software
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

and REMOVE:
misc.forsale.computers.mac
misc.forsale.computers.other
misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
                          
and RENAME:
misc.forsale             to misc.forsale.non-computer
misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion
misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation

[ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of     ]
[ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ]
[ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ]
[ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV.  ]

Newsgroups lines:

misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment.
misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale.
misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.


Votes must be received by 29:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected].  For questions about the
proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen .


INTRODUCTION
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,
    with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups
    for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those
    participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to
    create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a
    result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the
    misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;
    *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand
    the reasoning behind the proposals.

RATIONALE
    1.  Non-computer group
        It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-
        forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety
        of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the
        group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining
        this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-
        related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.

    2.  Platform-independent hardware
        While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look
        for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does
        not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
        is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
        laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
        usable on a wide variety of equipment.

        Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
        But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
        But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
        be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
        market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted
        to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

        Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
        cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
        will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
        also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
        .workstation.

        Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage,
        .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers.  It was originally
        proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and
        .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.

    3.  PC hardware
        The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of
        200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone
        be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
        PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
        monitors and hard disks.

        Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
        heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,
        software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and 
        .misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the
        hardware-independent groups.

        Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
        name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
        using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
        the reasons outlined above.

    4.  Macintosh hardware
        The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over
        100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be
        renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
        Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
        monitors and hard disks.

        Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
        heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, 
        cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,
        modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.

        Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
        name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
        using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
        the reasons outlined above.

    5.  Workstation hardware
        It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to
        .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs
        and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the
        traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.

    6.  Discussion group
        Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to
        new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This
        will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that
        are currently posted to the .d group.

    7.  Hierarchy rename
        In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,
        a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.
        However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename
        of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.

        Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.*
        groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.computers.*.  This,
        however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not
        included in this proposal.

    8.  Wanted postings
        It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in
        the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup.

    9.  Commercial posts
        There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the
        misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on
        whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is
        no way to enforce such a ban.

        As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new
        hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group
        hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This
        will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the
        buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller.
        It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all
        commercial postings.

        The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active
        groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat
        lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average.  An
        active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* 
        propagation.

        The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond
        to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the
        format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.-
        marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.


CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)

           +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
           |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
           |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
           |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
           |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
           |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders
           |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.
           V     V     V      V    V    V
      6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale
     87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
    151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac
    160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other
    325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.workstation
    446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d
    957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *

    * obsolete group

    [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the
     calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of
     the current proposal.]

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]

    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory
        (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,
        DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy
        hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,
        v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category
        contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,
        terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy
        and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to
        buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to
        buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and
        sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and
        sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes
        and workstations.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell
        other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*
        subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to
        the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
        and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
        or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and
        all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.

    The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the
    corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last
    sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for
    all biz.marketplace.* groups.

COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING
    There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically
    outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the
    proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is
    proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale
    groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of
    business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still
    be considered acceptable.

    All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*
    group.


HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If you don't want
to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank.  Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
inserts.

Then mail the ballot to: [email protected]    
Just Replying to this message should work.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
misc.forsale reorganization Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.modems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.memory
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.monitors
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.printers
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.storage
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.mac
[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.other
[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone

[     ]  rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer
[     ]  rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion
[     ]  rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.  Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.

--Brennan T. Price, UVV
  Running UseVote 3.0

From [email protected] Wed Oct 12 13:24:22 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale
Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: poster
Date: 12 Oct 1994 12:43:15 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 472
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: 
Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5773 news.groups:120321 biz.config:424 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:83893 misc.forsale.computers.other:37102 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14300 misc.forsale.computers.mac:42604 misc.forsale.computers.d:7595 misc.forsale:163674

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                     misc.forsale.* reorganization

To CREATE the unmoderated groups: 
misc.forsale.computers.modems
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware
misc.forsale.computers.memory
misc.forsale.computers.monitors
misc.forsale.computers.printers
misc.forsale.computers.storage
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
misc.forsale.computers.other.software
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

and REMOVE:
misc.forsale.computers.mac
misc.forsale.computers.other
misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
                          
and RENAME:
misc.forsale             to misc.forsale.non-computer
misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion
misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation

[ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of     ]
[ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ]
[ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ]
[ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV.  ]

Newsgroups lines:

misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment.
misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale.
misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.


Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected].  For questions about the
proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen .


INTRODUCTION
    The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,
    with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.
    Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the
    difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.

    While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups
    for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those
    participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to
    create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a
    result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the
    misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;
    *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand
    the reasoning behind the proposals.

RATIONALE
    1.  Non-computer group
        It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-
        forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety
        of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the
        group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining
        this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-
        related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.

    2.  Platform-independent hardware
        While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look
        for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does
        not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that
        is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,
        laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are
        usable on a wide variety of equipment.

        Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?
        But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?
        But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would
        be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target
        market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted
        to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.

        Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized
        cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware
        will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will
        also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as
        .workstation.

        Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage,
        .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers.  It was originally
        proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and
        .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.

    3.  PC hardware
        The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of
        200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone
        be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
        PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
        monitors and hard disks.

        Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
        heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,
        software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and 
        .misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the
        hardware-independent groups.

        Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
        name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
        using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
        the reasons outlined above.

    4.  Macintosh hardware
        The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over
        100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be
        renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for
        Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,
        monitors and hard disks.

        Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the
        heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, 
        cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,
        modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.

        Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group
        name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am
        using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for
        the reasons outlined above.

    5.  Workstation hardware
        It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to
        .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs
        and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the
        traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.

    6.  Discussion group
        Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to
        new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This
        will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that
        are currently posted to the .d group.

    7.  Hierarchy rename
        In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,
        a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.
        However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename
        of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.

        Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.*
        groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.comp.*.  This,
        however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not
        included in this proposal.

    8.  Wanted postings
        It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in
        the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup.

    9.  Commercial posts
        There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the
        misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on
        whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is
        no way to enforce such a ban.

        As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new
        hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group
        hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This
        will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the
        buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller.
        It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all
        commercial postings.

        The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active
        groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat
        lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average.  An
        active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* 
        propagation.

        The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond
        to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the
        format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.-
        marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.


CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)

           +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
           |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
           |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
           |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
           |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)
           |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders
           |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.
           V     V     V      V    V    V
      6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale
     87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
    151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac
    160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other
    325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.workstation
    446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d
    957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *

    * obsolete group

    [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the
     calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of
     the current proposal.]

PROPOSED CHARTERS
    [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]

    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory
        (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,
        DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy
        hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,
        v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category
        contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,
        terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy
        and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to
        buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to
        buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and
        sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and
        sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes
        and workstations.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell
        other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*
        subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to
        the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
        and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
        or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and
        all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.

    The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the
    corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last
    sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for
    all biz.marketplace.* groups.

COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING
    There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically
    outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the
    proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is
    proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale
    groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of
    business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still
    be considered acceptable.

    All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*
    group.


HOW TO VOTE

VOTETAKER'S NOTE:  The vote counting software was incorrectly configured
with a spelling error in in one of the group names, misc.forsale.
computers.mac-specific.portables.  This spelling error is reflected
in the ballot below.  All votes on "protables" have been counted
and will be counted toward the "portables" vote.  Please keep this in mind 
when filling out your ballot, and do not alter the ballot to indicate
the correct spelling.

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If you don't want
to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank.  Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
inserts.

Then mail the ballot to: [email protected]    
Just Replying to this message should work.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
misc.forsale reorganization Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.modems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.memory
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.monitors
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.printers
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.storage
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.software
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
[     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.misc

[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.mac
[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.other
[     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone

[     ]  rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer
[     ]  rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion
[     ]  rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.  Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.

--Brennan T. Price, UVV
  Running UseVote 3.0

From [email protected] Wed Oct 26 23:44:54 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale
Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 26 Oct 1994 23:12:05 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 564
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5847 news.groups:121732 biz.config:440 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:87504 misc.forsale.computers.other:38359 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14813 misc.forsale.computers.mac:44396 misc.forsale.computers.d:7858 misc.forsale:166243

                                RESULT
            misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass

misc.forsale reorganization results - 268 valid votes

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 225   37 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.modems
 209   42 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware
 223   39 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.memory
 217   41 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.monitors
 217   40 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.printers
 220   41 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.storage
 196   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software
 196   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems
 179   65 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables
 186   58 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc
 181   63 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video
 197   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
 189   56 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards
 182   62 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio
 182   64 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables
 187   60 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc
 180   67 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video
 197   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software
 192   56 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems
 197   54 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc
 200   51 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.software
 196   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.systems
 197   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.misc
 209   50 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.mac
 212   48 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.other
 211   48 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone
 216   47 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale to 
          :            :       : misc.forsale.non-computer
 209   53 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale.computers.d to 
          :            :       : misc.forsale.computers.discussion
 225   34 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale.workstation to 
          :            :       : misc.forsale.computers.workstation
  19 invalid votes

Newsgroups lines:

misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment.
misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale.
misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.


Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected].  For questions about the
proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen .


CHARTERS
    [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]

    misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell
        or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is
        SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT
        drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.
        Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC
        tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory
        (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,
        DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy
        hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,
        v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No
        commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or
        buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category
        contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,
        terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy
        computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-
        pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-
        luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-
        frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell
        hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,
        LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal
        printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy
        and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy
        and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to
        buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy
        and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy
        and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy
        and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to
        buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial
        postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to
        buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for
        Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and
        sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-
        comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent
        misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and
        .communications).  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and
        sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.
        No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and
        sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes
        and workstations.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell
        other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*
        subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to
        the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same
        and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell
        or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.

    misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)
        misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and
        all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.


misc.forsale reorganization Final Vote Ack


 rename to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -------------------------------+
  rename to misc.forsale.computers.discussion ------------------------------+|
          rename to misc.forsale.non-computer -----------------------------+||
       remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone ----------------------------+|||
          remove misc.forsale.computers.other ---------------------------+||||
            remove misc.forsale.computers.mac --------------------------+|||||
            misc.forsale.computers.other.misc -------------------------+||||||
         misc.forsale.computers.other.systems ------------------------+|||||||
        misc.forsale.computers.other.software -----------------------+||||||||
      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc ----------------------+|||||||||
   misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems ---------------------+||||||||||
  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software --------------------+|||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video ------------------+||||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc ------------------+|||||||||||||
 misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables -----------------+||||||||||||||
     misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio ----------------+|||||||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards -------------+||||||||||||||||
     misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc --------------+|||||||||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video -----------+||||||||||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc -----------+|||||||||||||||||||
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables -----------+||||||||||||||||||||
  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems ----------+|||||||||||||||||||||
 misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software ---------+||||||||||||||||||||||
               misc.forsale.computers.storage --------+|||||||||||||||||||||||
              misc.forsale.computers.printers -------+||||||||||||||||||||||||
              misc.forsale.computers.monitors ------+|||||||||||||||||||||||||
                misc.forsale.computers.memory -----+||||||||||||||||||||||||||
          misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware ----+|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
                misc.forsale.computers.modems ---+||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
                                                 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
34II5MT%[email protected]    John D YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                   Sean Carmody YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                Andrew Henry Y-YYYY------YYY-Y-YY---YYYYYY
[email protected]           Bill Mackela YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                Scott Salzman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]    Arthur B. Byrn YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]               Avram Cheaney YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]    Alison Colm YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]              Albert Crosby YYYYYYYYNYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                       Steve Adams YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
AFECU%[email protected]    Aron Ei YYYYYY------NNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN
[email protected]         Colin R. Leech YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]        Seyed A Alavizadeh YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                 G. Alexander Flett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                                 NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNYNY
[email protected]             Alexey B.Bulychev --------------------------YYY
[email protected]                  Eric C. Anderson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                   Andy Latto YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                  Ayn Shipley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]            Adam Tilghman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]     Ehvo Tewallaikmada Jarhai YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                      Jim Ault YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]             Ed Bailey YYYYYYYYNNNYYYNNNYYYNNNYNYNYY
[email protected]                      David Barr YYYYYYYYNYYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                       Bill Baker YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                 Bram Cohen YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]       Peter Bierman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]     William C Waggoner YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]       Bill von Hagen NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYY
[email protected]             Dan Birchall YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                    B.J Herbison YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]        Ronald W. Blaschke YYY--Y------YY----YY------YYY
[email protected]    Richard Ingraham Blu NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
[email protected]                    Bob Palmer NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
[email protected]         Brant Pellett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY
[email protected]                Brad Andrews YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]        Leo Bresler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]        Andrew K. Bressen YYYNYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY---YYY
[email protected]        Thomas J. Bunce YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                 Buz Cory YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]    William Ward [CONTRACTO YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]              Craig Bair NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
[email protected]    Clinton Chambe YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]              Eric C. Carlson YYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNNYY
[email protected]         Carl Aude YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]                Mark Kupferman NNNNNNYYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNYYNYY
[email protected]    Robert W.  YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]             Charles Oliphant YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]          Charles Herrick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNNNNY
[email protected]       Chris Koenigsberg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
[email protected]              Ernest Cline YYYYYYYY--NY---Y-YYY---YYYYYY
[email protected]             Clive Jones --------------------------NNY
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[email protected]                          Dale Quigg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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[email protected]                                     YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY
[email protected]         David Reynolds NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
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ian@squilgee                          Ian Darwin NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYN
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[email protected]       Lutz Donnerhacke YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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[email protected]                 max ahlgren YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY
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[email protected]           milan podhorsky Y-NYYY-----------------YYYYYY
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[email protected]                   M Mike Taksar YYYY-Y-Y-NNY-----------YYYYNY
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U20190%[email protected]    Carlo S Y---Y------------Y-YYYY------
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[email protected]    Dave Sha YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYYY
[email protected]                   Oceager Yee NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
[email protected]               Yuval Kfir -----------Y-------YY--YYYYNY
[email protected]              THE HOBBIT YYYYYYYY----YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY


Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                           Alan Peterman
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                                      Ben Taylor
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                               Bill Kujawa
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                     Adam M Bowen
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                       Jamie Brown
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                                  Bryant Fong
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                              Doug Brouwer
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                                               
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                                     Jose Cid
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                               Joseph Davida
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                            
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                          Yeongkuo Lin
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                    Lloyd Johnston
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                                Shawn Marier
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                                   Randall Goff
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                             Richard H. Miller
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                           Igor M. Maltcev
   ! Invalid address
[email protected]                                            Rodney Schuler
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                         Peter Burka
   ! Invalid address

--Brennan T. Price, UVV
  Running UseVote 3.0