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General ( misc.forsale.computers )
From [email protected] Tue Jul 28 17:18:21 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2567 news.groups:54747 misc.forsale.computers:46905 misc.forsale:67416 ny.forsale:2267 nj.forsale:3701 pa.forsale:1232 ne.forsale:9208 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,ne.forsale Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:24:53 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 32 I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new hierarchy. At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be: misc.forsale.computers.hardware misc.forsale.computers.software At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to: misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm misc.forsale.computers.software.apple misc.forsale.computers.software.other The reason for this RFD is that many current readers of misc.forsale. computers believe the group is too cumbersome to read/follow in its current format; simply put the volume of this group is too high for the existing format to continue being an effective means of offering computer related goods for sale. However, there are a large number who would like to continue to see the group in its present format. Following Usenet guidelines, ALL followup discussion on this topic should occur in news.groups ONLY. Do not cross-post back to other groups such as misc.forsale.computers. RFDs typically generate a large amount of traffic and can swamp a newsgroup. Regards, -- Mike Miskulin [email protected] From [email protected] Tue Sep 1 11:37:27 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2675 news.groups:56024 misc.forsale:70268 misc.forsale.computers:50670 ny.forsale:2454 nj.forsale:3960 pa.forsale:1354 dc.forsale:3600 misc.misc:17278 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc Path: uunet!bounce-back From: Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:17:54 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 146 ************************************************************************ * URGENT * * * * [email protected] has brought to my attention that newsgroup * * creation guidelines now require a SEPERATE VOTE on each group * * in question. A simple ballot is contained within this CFV. The * * only change is that you can vote yes/no/abstain on each of the * * groups in question. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO REVOTE IF YOU HAVE * * ALREADY VOTED. I personally apologize for this error and hope that * * it does not have an adverse effect on the outcome of this vote * * * * Mike Miskulin * ************************************************************************ This article is the FIRST CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace the current misc.forsale.computers group. PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT. +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+ Create: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone [ibm clone systems] misc.forsale.computers.mac [mac systems] misc.forsale.computers.workstation [i.e. sun/next/hp systems] misc.forsale.computers.comm [modems and the like] misc.forsale.computers.software [all software, o/s ] misc.forsale.computers.printers [printers/plotters] misc.forsale.computers.storage [disk/tape/cdrom] misc.forsale.computers.other [books,other systems,misc] misc.forsale.computers.d [flame wars,reviews] Remove: misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes. +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+ Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects. This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone for computer systems based on the IBM pc. misc.forsale.computers.mac: for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm for all equipment related to communications such as modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software for all software for all hardware platforms, including operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers for all equipment relating to hard copy output i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d for discussions of any nature related to the selling of computer products on usenet and discussion of postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups. +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+ One mailbox address has been set up to record votes. You may vote Yes No or Abstain. Possible ways to address votes include: [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected] uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote +----------+ | BALLOT | +----------+ Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN). __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+ 1. Discussion: The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992. It ended on 28 August 1992. 2. Voting: The vote will run through 28 September 1992. I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of unreachable return addresses, during the voting period. When the vote is over, I will post the final results. 3. Waiting Period: I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups. During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn the fairness of the vote taker. 4. Consummation: After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be made. About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued. If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the middle of October 1992. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin [email protected] 70053,[email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From [email protected] Thu Sep 17 14:46:14 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2735 news.groups:56676 misc.forsale:71757 misc.forsale.computers:52636 ny.forsale:2554 nj.forsale:4083 pa.forsale:1409 dc.forsale:3737 misc.misc:17377 ba.market.computers:8565 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 18:35:04 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 134 This article is the *SECOND* CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace the current misc.forsale.computers group. PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT. PLEASE USE THE BALLOT CONTAINED IN THIS ARTICLE +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+ Create: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone [ibm clone systems] misc.forsale.computers.mac [mac systems] misc.forsale.computers.workstation [i.e. sun/next/hp systems] misc.forsale.computers.comm [modems and the like] misc.forsale.computers.software [all software, o/s ] misc.forsale.computers.printers [printers/plotters] misc.forsale.computers.storage [disk/tape/cdrom] misc.forsale.computers.other [books,other systems,misc] misc.forsale.computers.d [flame wars,reviews] Remove: misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes. +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+ Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects. This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone for computer systems based on the IBM pc. misc.forsale.computers.mac: for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm for all equipment related to communications such as modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software for all software for all hardware platforms, including operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers for all equipment relating to hard copy output i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d for discussions of any nature related to the selling of computer products on usenet and discussion of postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups. +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+ One mailbox address has been set up to record votes. You may vote Yes No or Abstain. Possible ways to address votes include: [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected] uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote +----------+ | BALLOT | +----------+ Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN). __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+ 1. Discussion: The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992. It ended on 28 August 1992. 2. Voting: The vote will run through 28 September 1992. I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of unreachable return addresses, during the voting period. When the vote is over, I will post the final results. 3. Waiting Period: I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups. During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn the fairness of the vote taker. 4. Consummation: After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be made. About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued. If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the middle of October 1992. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin [email protected] 70053,[email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From [email protected] Mon Sep 28 11:13:17 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2779 news.groups:57055 misc.forsale:72590 misc.forsale.computers:54050 ny.forsale:2613 nj.forsale:4161 pa.forsale:1428 dc.forsale:3830 misc.misc:17432 ba.market.computers:8757 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: misc.forsale.computers Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: Ballot Box for mfc reorg vote <[email protected]> Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:55:49 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 585 This article is the THIRD & FINAL CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace the current misc.forsale.computers group. (vote ack at the end) PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT. PLEASE USE THE BALLOT INCLUDED IN THIS ARTICLE TO VOTE. +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+ Create: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone [ibm clone systems] misc.forsale.computers.mac [mac systems] misc.forsale.computers.workstation [i.e. sun/next/hp systems] misc.forsale.computers.comm [modems and the like] misc.forsale.computers.software [all software, o/s ] misc.forsale.computers.printers [printers/plotters] misc.forsale.computers.storage [disk/tape/cdrom] misc.forsale.computers.other [books,other systems,misc] misc.forsale.computers.d [flame wars,reviews] Remove: misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes. +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+ Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects. This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone for computer systems based on the IBM pc. misc.forsale.computers.mac: for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm for all equipment related to communications such as modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software for all software for all hardware platforms, including operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers for all equipment relating to hard copy output i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d for discussions of any nature related to the selling of computer products on usenet and discussion of postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups. +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+ One mailbox address has been set up to record votes. You may vote Yes No or Abstain. Possible ways to address votes include: [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected] uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote +----------+ | BALLOT | +----------+ Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN). __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+ 1. Discussion: The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992. It ended on 28 August 1992. 2. Voting: The vote will run through 28 September 1992. I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of unreachable return addresses, during the voting period. When the vote is over, I will post the final results. 3. Waiting Period: I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups. During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn the fairness of the vote taker. 4. Consummation: After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be made. About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued. If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the middle of October 1992. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin [email protected] 70053,[email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE FOLLOWING HAVE SENT VALID VOTES AS OF 9/27/92: Bernhard G. Fleuti @chx400.switch.ch, Network [email protected], [email protected] (Allan Rickards) /usr/spool/mail/gopstein <[email protected]> [email protected] Abraham Kabanda <[email protected]> Adam Shostack <[email protected]> Adlai Waksman <[email protected]> Al Kossow <[email protected]> Albert Liu <[email protected]> Alex Dillard <[email protected]> Alex Lecea <[email protected]> Alexis Rosen <[email protected]> Alicia Lee Salomon <[email protected]> Allan Rickards <[email protected]> Andreas Meyer <[email protected]> Andrew Bressen <[email protected]> Andrew Bros <[email protected]> Andrew J. Kass <[email protected]> Andrew J. Petrarca <[email protected]> Andrew Ward <[email protected]> Andrew webster <[email protected]> Android Rubin <[email protected]> Andy Wright <[email protected]> Apollo Wong <[email protected]> Arne Henrik Juul <[email protected]> Arthur T. McClinton <[email protected]> Austin Phelps <[email protected]> B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110 <[email protected]> Baldwin Ng <[email protected]> Barbara Bury <[email protected]> Barry Margolin <[email protected]> Bdale Garbee <[email protected]> Beaker <[email protected]> Bill Bogstad <[email protected]> Bill Reeves <[email protected]> Bob Kupiec <[email protected]> Bob Shew <[email protected]> Bob Sichler <[email protected]> Bob Vaughan <[email protected]> Bob Williams <[email protected]> Brad Wallet <[email protected]> Brent Earl <[email protected]> Brian Catlin <[email protected]> Brian Court <[email protected]> Brian Curtiss <[email protected]> Brian Kenney <[email protected]> Brian Michael Patten <[email protected]> Bruce Clement <[email protected]> Bruce Mackey <[email protected]> Casey Bahr <[email protected]> Cathi Cook <[email protected]> Charles Fee <[email protected]> Charlie Pilzer <[email protected]> Chip Rosenthal <[email protected]> Chip Salzenberg <[email protected]> Chris Blackmon <[email protected]> Chris Ellington <[email protected]> Chris Wolf <[email protected]> Christophe M. Kalisiak <[email protected]> Christopher Jeanrichard <[email protected]> Christopher Oliver <[email protected]> Christopher Wroten <[email protected]> Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath <[email protected]> Clark Coffman <[email protected]> Cloyce. <[email protected]> Curtis Chen <[email protected]> D. Brian Kimmel <[email protected]> D. W. James <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Dale Call <[email protected]> Dana Jacobsen <[email protected]> Dane Hendrix <[email protected]> Darius S. Naqvi <[email protected]> Darren Stalder <[email protected]> Daryl Biberdorf <[email protected]> Dave Friedman <[email protected]> Dave Lampe <[email protected]> Dave Medin <[email protected]> Dave Wiseman <[email protected]> David 574-7299 <[email protected]> David A. Berson <[email protected]> David Barr <[email protected]> David Heiney <[email protected]> David Kline <[email protected]> David Lively <[email protected]> David Muir Sharnoff <[email protected]> David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637 <[email protected]> David S. Miller <[email protected]> David S.A. Stine <[email protected]> David Schankin <[email protected]> Dean M. Phillips <[email protected]> Denis Concordel <[email protected]> Desmond Fuller <[email protected]> Dick Sweet <[email protected]> Don Ried <[email protected]> Donald H. Locker <[email protected]> Doug Greenwald <[email protected]> Doug Peckham <[email protected]> Doug Philips <[email protected]> Duckie Shiau <[email protected]> Dwight A. Schwartz <[email protected]> Ed Bailey <[email protected]> Ed Paradis <[email protected]> Edmund Burnette <[email protected]> Edward Bertsch <[email protected]> Edward Feustel <[email protected]> Edward Reid <[email protected]> Elizabeth Schwartz <[email protected]> Ellen Yu <[email protected]> Elliott Kleinrock <[email protected]> Emru Townsend <[email protected]> Eric Gaumond <[email protected]> Eric J. Bartelsman <[email protected]> Eric J. Olson <[email protected]> Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320 <[email protected]> Eric Shepherd <[email protected]> Erik Seaberg <[email protected]> Floyd Davidson <[email protected]> Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems <[email protected]> Foster Schucker <[email protected]> Fred Heutte <[email protected]> Fred Rump from home <[email protected]> >From rare places come rare experiences. 01-Sep-1992 0818 <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Gary Goldberg <[email protected]> Gary Morris <[email protected]> Geoff Peck <[email protected]> Geoffrey Hopcraft <[email protected]> George S Kaczowka <[email protected]> Gerry Swetsky <[email protected]> Gilles Detillieux <[email protected]> Glenn Gray <[email protected]> Gordon Dohle <[email protected]> Graeme Hart <[email protected]> Greg Franklin <[email protected]> Greg Moore <[email protected]> Gregory G. Woodbury <[email protected]> Gregory Gulik <[email protected]> Gregory M Marr <[email protected]> Gwochyuan Chen <[email protected]> Harry Bloomberg <[email protected]> Hiroto Shibuya <[email protected]> Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani <[email protected]> [email protected] Hsin-Yuan Huang <[email protected]> Huma Dragonbane <[email protected]> I can't drive 55 <[email protected]> In-Jerng Choe <[email protected]> Irving Shang-Yi Hsu <[email protected]> J. Eric Townsend <[email protected]> J. Scott Anderson <[email protected]> J. Scott Farrow <[email protected]> J. Taggart Gorman <[email protected]> J.W. <[email protected]> Jack Decker <[email protected]> Jack Previdi <[email protected]> James H. Cloos Jr. <[email protected]> James Offutt <[email protected]> James Ralston Crawford <[email protected]> Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting <[email protected]> Jan Timm <[email protected]> Jason Galanter <[email protected]> Jay Maynard <[email protected]> Jean-Jacques P. Drolet <[email protected]> Jeff Dairiki <[email protected]> Jeff Goldader <[email protected]> Jeff Meyer <[email protected]> Jeff Miller <[email protected]> Jeff Szczepanski <[email protected]> Jeff Wishnie <[email protected]> Jeffrey C Jodoin <[email protected]> Jerry Gally <[email protected]> Jerry Gulla <[email protected]> Jerry Leichter <[email protected]> Jerry Miller <[email protected]> Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A <[email protected]> Jim A Snowden <[email protected]> Jim Apriletti <[email protected]> Jim Ault <[email protected]> Jim Cabral <[email protected]> Jim Liston <[email protected]> Jim Vienneau - Sun Microsystems <[email protected]> Jim Williams <[email protected]> Joe Kelsey <[email protected]> Joel C. Justen <[email protected]> John Bailey <[email protected]> John Burnette <[email protected]> John Conner <[email protected]> John D. Zitterkopf <[email protected]> John Harkin <[email protected]> John Lee <[email protected]> John Lynch Davis <[email protected]> John Mahoney <[email protected]> John Townsend <[email protected]> John Will <[email protected]> Jonathan B. Horen <[email protected]> Jonathan Kruger <[email protected]> Jonathan Thornburg <[email protected]> Jong Y. Lee <[email protected]> Joseph Malloy <[email protected]> Joseph O. Hines Jr. <[email protected]> Joshua Kronengold <[email protected]> Jueychong Ong <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] Kamesh Ramakrishna <[email protected]> Keith Ward N5OOD <[email protected]> Keith Woodard <[email protected]> Kelly Deyoe <[email protected]> Ken Olum <[email protected]> Kenneth Fribert <[email protected]> Kent Dalton <[email protected]> Kevin Nechodom <[email protected]> Kevin O'Gorman <[email protected]> Kevin_Story <[email protected]> Khushro Shahookar <[email protected]> Kim DeVaughn <[email protected]> Kristen McQuillin <[email protected]> L L Campbell <[email protected]> Larry Gilmore <[email protected]> Larry Larson <[email protected]> Lee Chen <[email protected]> Lee Havemann <[email protected]> Leon Wicki <[email protected]> Leonid V. Yakovlev <[email protected]> Levin F Magruder <[email protected]> Life... <[email protected]> Lisa Bjarke <[email protected]> Lori Inglett <[email protected]> [email protected] Marc G. Frank <[email protected]> Marc Moorcroft <[email protected]> MargARET D. Gibbs <[email protected]> Margaret Keller <[email protected]> Mario Goertzel <[email protected]> Mark Adam <[email protected]> Mark Ng <[email protected]> Mark Purtill <[email protected]> Mark Sicignano <[email protected]> Mark Solsman <[email protected]> Mark Vidov <[email protected]> Marshall Abrams <[email protected]> Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services <[email protected]> Matthew C. Jones <[email protected]> Matthew Coriale (x37975 <[email protected]> Matthew E. Merkelson <[email protected]> Michael Browner <[email protected]> Michael Chang <[email protected]> Michael F Horgan <[email protected]> Michael Faurot <[email protected]> Michael George Buening <[email protected]> Michael L. Hall <[email protected]> Michael P. Deffendall <[email protected]> Michael P. Deignan <[email protected]> Michael R Linksvayer <[email protected]> Michael Schuh <[email protected]> Mike A. Pasek <[email protected]> Mike Campbell <[email protected]> Mike Dodd <[email protected]> Mike Herman <[email protected]> Mike Johnston <[email protected]> Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Mike Murphy <[email protected]> Mike Shirley <[email protected]> Munkacsy <[email protected]> Murray Nesbitt <[email protected]> Nathan Lee <[email protected]> Nick Duffek <[email protected]> Noe Garza <[email protected]> Not A Random Name <[email protected]> [email protected] Oleg Rovner <[email protected]> OmniSoft <[email protected]> [email protected] Otto Heuer #3 <[email protected]> [email protected] Pat Kane <[email protected]> Patrick Clancey <[email protected]> Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems) <[email protected]> Paul Alexander Gomme <[email protected]> Paul C. Romano <[email protected]> Paul Hutmacher <[email protected]> Paul Robichaux <[email protected]> Pau[email protected] Pete Boulay <[email protected]> Peter C. Sun <[email protected]> Peter Clitherow <[email protected]> Peter Vines <[email protected]> Peter Von Ege <[email protected]> Peter W. De Bonte <[email protected]> Phil Kramer <[email protected]> RAVEN Winter <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Randolph Turner <[email protected]> Randy Bush <[email protected]> Ray Lampman <[email protected]> Rich Brennan <[email protected]> Richard Gorton <[email protected]> Richard H. Miller <[email protected]> Richard Kulawiec <[email protected]> Richard P. Muller <[email protected]> Richard Pan <[email protected]> Richard Reiner <[email protected]> Rick O'Shea <[email protected]> Rick Rodman <[email protected]> Rob Cartaino <[email protected]> Robert J. McNamara <[email protected]> Robert Landry <[email protected]> Robert Myhre <[email protected]> Robert Rhode <[email protected]> Ron HALL <[email protected]> Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199 <[email protected]> Russ Jorgensen <[email protected]> [email protected] Sam Hill Cabal, DS <[email protected]> Samuel Roy Helwig <[email protected]> Sandy Bendremer <[email protected]> Sandy Duveneck <[email protected]> Sascha Wildner <[email protected]> Scott Barman <[email protected]> Scott Blachowicz <[email protected]> Scott Curry <[email protected]> Scott D. Curtin <[email protected]> Scott I. Logan <[email protected]> Sean Petty <[email protected]> Soroka Alexander Vasilevich <[email protected]> Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow <[email protected]> Stephan Heilmayr <[email protected]> Stephan Muhs <[email protected]> Steve Gibbons <[email protected]> Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service <[email protected]> Steve Turner <[email protected]> Steven White <[email protected]> Stu Labovitz <[email protected]> Stuart M Lichtenthal <[email protected]> Stuart Milton <[email protected]> Stuart S Goldstone <[email protected]> Sunil Gupta <[email protected]> System Operator <[email protected]> Ted Koppel <[email protected]> Theo Deraadt <[email protected]> Thomas Aaron Insel <[email protected]> Thomas Arneberg <[email protected]> Tim Ramsey <[email protected]> Tim Sullivan <[email protected]> Tim Tyhurst <[email protected]> Timothy VanFosson <[email protected]> Timothy W Tjarks <[email protected]> Todd Cooper <[email protected]> Todd Heatherton <[email protected]> Todd Mummert <[email protected]> Tom Atwater <[email protected]> Tom Fitzgerald <[email protected]> Tom Haapanen <[email protected]> Tomislav Lozic <[email protected]> Tony Matt <[email protected]> Toshi Takeuchi <[email protected]> Tuomas Siren <[email protected]> Ulf Bahrenfuss <[email protected]> V Balaji <[email protected]> Valerie E Polichar <[email protected]> Vern <[email protected]> Vijay Tulsiani <[email protected]> Vincent Hurtubise <[email protected]> Wesner L. Precil <[email protected]> William R. Quayle <[email protected]> William Y. Lai <[email protected]> Yat Lok L. Cheung <[email protected]> Zeke Koch <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] bill d'Amico <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] dan cornett <[email protected]> [email protected] deborah samuels <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] eh? <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] gordon e. banks <[email protected]> [email protected] gregory d moncreaff <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] lhanson <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] moebius <[email protected]> [email protected] (Roger Barth) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] rodrigo vanegas <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] shawn <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] the stupid one <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] victor porguen <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] william E Davidsen <[email protected]> From [email protected] Fri Oct 9 16:10:39 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2816 news.groups:57597 misc.forsale:73452 misc.forsale.computers:55348 ny.forsale:2678 nj.forsale:4254 pa.forsale:1468 dc.forsale:3922 misc.misc:17532 ba.market.computers:8998 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:21:58 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Lines: 515 Proposal Yes No Abs Margin % in favor Result ========== ============= ================== ====== comm 307 172 9 135 64.1% FAIL d 341 133 14 208 71.9% PASS mac 343 137 8 206 71.5% PASS other 325 149 14 176 68.6% PASS pc-clone 344 138 6 206 71.4% PASS printers 310 168 10 142 64.9% FAIL software 320 164 4 156 66.1% FAIL storage 303 173 12 130 63.7% FAIL workstation 326 148 14 178 68.8% PASS 488 total votes 239(49.0%) all-yes votes 105(21.5%) all-no votes 0(0.0%) all-abstain votes. Proposals needed 100 more yes votes than no votes and at least twice as many yes votes as no votes. Attached is a list of the individual votes which were received and counted. The listing is given in rudimentary alphabetic order. Votes are arranged in the same order as the above summary. NYANANNNN /usr/spool/mail/gopstein <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Abraham Kabanda <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Adam Shostack <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Adlai Waksman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Al Kossow <[email protected]> YYYYYNYYN Alan Peterman <[email protected]> NYNYNNYNN Alex Dillard <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Alex Lecea <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Alex Matulich <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Alexis Rosen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Alicia Lee Salomon <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Allan Rickards <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Andreas Meyer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYN Andrew Bressen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Andrew Bros <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Andrew J. Kass" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Andrew J. Petrarca" <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNN Andrew Ward <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Andrew webster <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Android Rubin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Andy Wright <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Anthony Wei <[email protected]> YYAYYYYYY "Antonio J Salerno, Jr" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Apollo Wong <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Arne Henrik Juul <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Arthur T. McClinton" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Austin Phelps <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110" <[email protected]> YAYYYAYAY Baldwin Ng <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Barbara Bury <[email protected]> YYYYYNNNY Barry Margolin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Bdale Garbee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Beaker <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bill Bogstad <[email protected]> NAYYYNNNY Bill Reeves <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN Bob Kupiec <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY Bob Shew <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bob Sichler <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bob Vaughan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bob Williams <[email protected]> NNYNYNYNY Bob Witmer <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Brad Wallet <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Brent Earl <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Brian Catlin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Brian Court <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Brian Curtiss <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Brian D Pollard <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY Brian Kenney <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Brian Michael Patten <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bruce Clement <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bruce Mackey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Bruce Oneel <[email protected]> AYYNYYYYY Casey Bahr <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Cathi Cook <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Chad Burkins <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY Charles Fee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Charlie Pilzer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Chih-Pong Lin <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Chip Rosenthal <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Chip Salzenberg <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Chris Blackmon <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Chris Ellington <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Chris Penington <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Chris Wolf <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Christophe M. Kalisiak" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Christopher Jeanrichard <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Christopher Oliver <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Christopher Wroten <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath <[email protected]> NNNYNNYNN Chuck Farmer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Clark Coffman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Cloyce." <[email protected]> YYYAYYYAA Craig Carpenter Harris Corp/ISD Phone (407)984-6444 Fax (407)984-6327 <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Craig Presnell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Curtis Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "D. Brian Kimmel" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "D. W. James" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NYNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Dale Call <[email protected]> YYYYYAYYY Dana Jacobsen <[email protected]> NAYYYNYAA Dane Hendrix <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Darius S. Naqvi" <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Dark Elf <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY Darren Stalder <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Daryl Biberdorf <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Dave Frederick <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Dave Friedman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Dave Lampe <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Dave Medin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Dave Wiseman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY David 574-7299 <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "David A. Berson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY David Barr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN David Heiney <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY David Kline <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY David Lively <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY David Muir Sharnoff <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYA "David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "David S. Miller" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "David S.A. Stine" <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY David Schankin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Dean M. Phillips" <[email protected]> NYYYYYYNY Denis Concordel <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Desmond Fuller <[email protected]> AYYYYYAAA Dick Sweet <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Don Ried <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY Don Sawtelle <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Donald H. Locker" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Doug Greenwald <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Doug Peckham <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Doug Philips <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Douglas Plant <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Duckie Shiau <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Dwight A. Schwartz" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Ed Bailey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Ed Paradis <[email protected]> YYYYNYYYY Edmund Burnette <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Edward Bertsch <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Edward Feustel <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Edward Reid <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN Elizabeth Schwartz <[email protected]> NYYYYYYNY Ellen Yu <[email protected]> AYAYYYYYY Elliott Kleinrock <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Emru Townsend <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY Eric Gaumond <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY "Eric J. Bartelsman" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Eric J. Olson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320" <[email protected]> YYNYNYYYN Eric Shepherd <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Erik Seaberg <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY F Harvell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Floyd Davidson <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY "Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Foster Schucker <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Fred Heutte <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Fred Rump from home <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Gabe Helou <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Gary Goldberg <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY Gary Morris <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Geoff Peck <[email protected]> YYNYYYYYY Geoffrey Hopcraft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN George S Kaczowka <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY Gerry Swetsky <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Gilles Detillieux <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Glenn Gray <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Gordon Dohle <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Graeme Hart <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY Greg Franklin <[email protected]> NYNNNYYYN Greg Moore <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Gregory G. Woodbury" <[email protected]> NYNNNNYNN Gregory Gulik <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Gregory M Marr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Gwochyuan Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Harry Bloomberg <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Hiroto Shibuya <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Hsin-Yuan Huang <[email protected]> YAYAYNYNA Huma Dragonbane <[email protected]> NYYYNYYYY I can't drive 55 <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN In-Jerng Choe <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Irving Shang-Yi Hsu <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "J. Eric Townsend" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "J. Scott Anderson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "J. Scott Farrow" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "J. Taggart Gorman" <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY "J.W." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY JOHN FISKIO-LASSETER <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN JOHN HEIM <[email protected]> YAAYYYNYA Jack Decker <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jack McKinney <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jack Previdi <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "James H. Cloos Jr." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY James Offutt <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY James Ralston Crawford <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting" <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY Jan Sondergaard <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Jan Timm <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Jason Galanter <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jay Maynard <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Jean-Jacques P. Drolet" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNNY Jeff Dairiki <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Jeff Goldader <[email protected]> YYYYYYNNY Jeff Meyer <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Jeff Miller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jeff Szczepanski <[email protected]> NYYNYYNYY Jeff Wishnie <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jeffrey C Jodoin <[email protected]> YYYAYYNYY Jeffrey Komori <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jerry Gally <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jerry Gulla <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jerry Leichter <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Jerry Miller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Jim A Snowden <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Apriletti <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Ault <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Cabral <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Liston <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Liston <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Jim Vienneau - Sun Microsystems <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jim Williams <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Joe Kelsey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Joel C. Justen" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Johan A. Grape" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY John Bailey <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN John Burnette <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN John Conner <[email protected]> NYAYYANNA "John D. Zitterkopf" <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN John Harkin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN John Lee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY John Lynch Davis <[email protected]> NYNNNYYNN John Mahoney <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY John Townsend <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "John W. Schwegler" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN John Will <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Jonathan B. Horen" <[email protected]> YYNNNYYYN Jonathan Kruger <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Jonathan Thornburg <[email protected]> YYYYYNYYN "Jong Y. Lee" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Joseph Malloy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Joseph O. Hines Jr." <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Joshua Kronengold <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Jueychong Ong <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NYNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYAAYY [email protected] AYYYAYYYY Kamesh Ramakrishna <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Karl A. Nyberg" <[email protected]> YYAAAAYYA Keith Ward N5OOD <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Keith Woodard <[email protected]> YYYYYNYYN Kelly Deyoe <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Ken Olum <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Kenneth Fribert <[email protected]> YYYYYNNYY Kent Dalton <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Kevin Nechodom <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Kevin O'Gorman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Kevin_Story <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Khushro Shahookar <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Kim DeVaughn <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Kristen McQuillin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY L L Campbell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Larry Gilmore <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Larry Larson <[email protected]> YNNYYYYYY Lee Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Lee Havemann <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Leon Wicki <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Leonid V. Yakovlev" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Levin F Magruder <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY "Life..." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Lisa Bjarke <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Lisa Parry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Lori Inglett <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYA [email protected] YYYYYYYYY "Marc G. Frank" <[email protected]> NNNNNNANN Marc Moorcroft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "MargARET D. Gibbs" <[email protected]> AAYAYAYAA Margaret Keller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mario Goertzel <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNN Mark Adam <[email protected]> NNYNNNNNN Mark Ng <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mark Purtill <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY Mark Sicignano <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Mark Solsman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Mark Vidov <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Marshall Abrams <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Matthew Blum <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Matthew C. Jones" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY "Matthew Coriale (x37975" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Matthew E. Merkelson" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Michael Browner <[email protected]> NNNNNNYNN Michael Chang <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Michael F Horgan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Michael Faurot <[email protected]> YYYYYYYAY "Michael G. Reed" <[email protected]> NAYYYNYNY Michael George Buening <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Michael L. Hall" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Michael P. Deffendall" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Michael R Linksvayer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Michael Schuh <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Mike A. Pasek" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mike Campbell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Mike Dodd <[email protected]> NNYYYYYNN Mike Herman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mike Johnston <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Mike Murphy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Mike Shirley <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Munkacsy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Murray Nesbitt <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Nathan Lee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Nick Duffek <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Noe Garza <[email protected]> NNYNYNYYN Not A Random Name <[email protected]> NNYNYNYNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN Oleg Rovner <[email protected]> YNYYYYNYY OmniSoft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Otto Heuer #3 <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNYNN Pat Kane <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Patrick Clancey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems)" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Patrick Wei <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Paul Alexander Gomme <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Paul C. Romano" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Paul Hutmacher <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Paul Robichaux <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Paul Vargo <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Paul Wei <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYNNYNNY Pete Boulay <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Peter C. Sun" <[email protected]> YAYAAAYYY Peter Clitherow <[email protected]> AYYYYYYNA Peter Vines <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Peter Von Ege <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN Phil Kramer <[email protected]> AYYYYAYAY RAVEN Winter <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Randolph Turner <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Randy Bush <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY Ray Lampman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Rich Brennan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Richard Gorton <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN "Richard H. Miller" <[email protected]> YYYAYYNYY Richard Kulawiec <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Richard P. Muller" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Richard Pan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Richard Reiner <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN Rick DeMattia <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Rick O'Shea <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Rick Rodman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Rob Cartaino <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY "Robert J. McNamara" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Robert Landry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Robert Myhre <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Robert Rhode <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Rodrick Su <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Ron HALL <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Russ Jorgensen <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY Ryan Waldron <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYAYYYYY "Sam Hill Cabal, DS" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Samuel Roy Helwig <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Sandy Bendremer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Sandy Duveneck <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Sascha Wildner <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Scott Barman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Scott Blachowicz <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Scott Curry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Scott I. Logan" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Sean Petty <[email protected]> YYAYYYYAY Soroka Alexander Vasilevich <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Stephan Heilmayr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Stephan Muhs <[email protected]> NYYYYYYYY "Stephen P. Potter" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYAY Steve Gibbons <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Steve Turner <[email protected]> NYYYYNNYY Steven White <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY Stu Labovitz <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Stuart M Lichtenthal <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Stuart Milton <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Stuart S Goldstone <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY Sunil Gupta <[email protected]> YYYNYYNYY System Operator <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Ted Koppel <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Theo Deraadt <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Thomas Aaron Insel <[email protected]> YNYYYYNYY Thomas Arneberg <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN "Thomas C. Burns" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Tim Ramsey <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Tim Sullivan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Tim Tyhurst <[email protected]> YNYYYAYAY Timothy VanFosson <[email protected]> YNYYYYAYY Timothy W Tjarks <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Todd Cooper <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Todd Heatherton <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Todd Mummert <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Tom Atwater <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Tom Fitzgerald <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY Tom Haapanen <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN "Tom. Adams 529-7860" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Tomislav Lozic <[email protected]> YYAYYYNYY Tony Matt <[email protected]> YYYYAYNAA Toshi Takeuchi <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Tuomas Siren <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY Ulf Bahrenfuss <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN V Balaji <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY Valerie E Polichar <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY Vern <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN Vijay Tulsiani <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Vincent Hurtubise <[email protected]> ANYAAYYYY "Wesner L. Precil" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY Will Fitzgerald <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "William R. Quayle" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY "William Y. Lai" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN "Yat Lok L. Cheung" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY Zeke Koch <[email protected]> YYNNNYYNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN "andrew m. boardman" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] AYYYYAYAY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY bill d'Amico <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY Bernhard G. Fleuti <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY dan cornett <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYNNY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN deborah samuels <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY eh? <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YNYYYYYYY "gordon e. banks" <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY gregory d moncreaff <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NYNANNNNA [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY james keen U <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNYYYNYNY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NYNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NAYNYNNNA lhanson <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NYYNYNNNY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN moebius <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] (Roger Barth) YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYAYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YNYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYNYYYNNY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY rodrigo vanegas <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY shawn <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NYNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] YYYYYYYYY the stupid one <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNYYYNYNN victor porguen <[email protected]> NYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN [email protected] NNNNNNNNN william E Davidsen <[email protected]> From [email protected] Wed Jun 29 13:30:19 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups Followup-To: news.groups Date: 29 Jun 1994 10:51:03 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 100 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5295 news.groups:107438 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:60924 misc.forsale.computers.other:28619 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:10689 misc.forsale.computers.mac:31556 misc.forsale.computers.d:5738 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION on creating misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.communications misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers RATIONALE The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.workstation comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*) While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be cropssposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 109 150000 1243 72% 5486 4.9 2.5% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 172 14633+0 1041 70% 2935 2.6 2.1% misc.forsale.computers.mac 194 120000 989 72% 2233 1.6 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.other 331 99000 819 69% 967 0.7 1.6% misc.forsale.computers.workstation 445 86000 717 69% 361 0.4 1.4% misc.forsale.computers.d PROPOSED CHARTERS misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Hardware-dependent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent communications equipment. This is most commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and cabling systems. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. DISCUSSION AND VOTING The discussion period lasts for 21 days from the date in the header of this article. All discussion should take place in news.groups. The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if necessary, a second, revised RFD will be posted prior to the end of the discussion period. A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion period. The vote will be run by a neutral third party. This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please refer to this document if you have questions about the process. -- [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "the edsel is here to stay" -- henry ford, 1957 ] From [email protected] Thu Jul 28 17:24:42 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d Subject: 2nd RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups Followup-To: news.groups Date: 28 Jul 1994 16:26:15 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 151 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5401 news.groups:110020 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:66875 misc.forsale.computers.other:30921 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:11576 misc.forsale.computers.mac:34316 misc.forsale.computers.d:6153 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION on creating misc.forsale.computers.communications misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage and renaming misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.mac to misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone to misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion RATIONALE The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software: misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.workstation comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*) While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. Also, it is proposed that the .pc-clone and .mac groups be renamed to .pc-specific and .mac-specific to make it clear that these groups are intended for PC- and Macintosh-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix. Finally, it is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.forsale.non-computer, as it is currently inundated with a variety of assorted and various postings about computer equipment. A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other than computers. Similarly, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 109 150000 1243 72% 5486 4.9 2.5% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 172 14633+0 1041 70% 2935 2.6 2.1% misc.forsale.computers.mac 194 120000 989 72% 2233 1.6 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.other 331 99000 819 69% 967 0.7 1.6% misc.forsale.computers.workstation 445 86000 717 69% 361 0.4 1.4% misc.forsale.computers.d PROPOSED CHARTERS misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent communications equipment. This is most commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and cabling systems. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific is for articles to buy and sell computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and software that is specific to the PC "clone" platform. It is not for platform-independent equipment. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific is for articles to buy and sell computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and software that is specific to the Macintosh platform. It is not for platform-independent equipment. misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters. However, it is not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly what would constitute a commercial posting. Further comments on this topic are welcome. DISCUSSION AND VOTING The discussion period will last at least a further 10 days from the date in the header of this 2nd RFD. All discussion should take place in news.groups. The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if necessary, a final, further revised RFD will be posted prior to the end of the discussion period. A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion period. The vote will be run by a neutral third party. This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please refer to this document if you have questions about the process. -- [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "where all men think alike, no one thinks very much" -- walter lippman ] From [email protected] Tue Aug 16 16:36:30 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale,misc.wanted Subject: 3rd RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Date: 15 Aug 1994 15:08:55 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 311 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5506 news.groups:112530 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:70734 misc.forsale.computers.other:32369 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12189 misc.forsale.computers.mac:36202 misc.forsale.computers.d:6531 misc.forsale:153591 misc.wanted:45492 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION on creating misc.forsale.computers.communications misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc and removing misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone and renaming misc.forsale.* HIERARCHY to misc.marketplace.* misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion INTRODUCTION The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet, with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to create a logical organization for the present and the future. As a result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched; *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand the reasoning behind the proposals. RATIONALE 1. Non-computer group It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the group's traffic. A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy. 2. Platform-independent hardware While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage, .memory, .communications and .printers. 3. PC hardware The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 200 articles on most days. First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic in the PC group. These groups include .systems, .software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. 4. Macintosh hardware The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 100 articles per day. First, it is proposed that the .mac be renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic. These groups include .systems, .software, .video- cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not belong in this group), .portables and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. 5. Workstation hardware It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix. Further, the traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split. 6. Discussion group Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used. This will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that are currently posted to the .d group. 7. Hierarchy rename In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time. 8. Commercial posts As it is impossible to prevent commercial posts; as there is no overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be banned; and as it is not clear when commercial posts are "below market prices" (as per the FAQ), it is proposed that all commercial posts in the misc.forsale.* groups must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. A keyword flagging mechanism will allow most readers to eliminate commercial posts (using KILL files) if they so wish; it will enable others to find the commercial posts easily, if they prefer to deal with businesses only; and it is a relatively harmless addition for business' posts, posing little incentive to ignore this guideline. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994) +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 6 290000 2757 81% 5385 5.0 5.6% misc.forsale 87 110000 1194 72% 6163 5.6 2.4% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 151 90000 966 71% 2989 2.5 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.mac 160 88000 928 72% 2370 1.9 1.9% misc.forsale.computers.other 325 65000 707 70% 863 0.7 1.4% misc.forsale.computers.workstation 446 55000 603 69% 433 0.5 1.2% misc.forsale.computers.d 957 4633+0 509 45% 575 0.6 1.0% misc.forsale.computers * 2056 7200 218 25% 128 0.0 0.4% misc.forsale.wanted * obsolete group [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of the current proposal.] PROPOSED CHARTERS [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.] misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent communications equipment. This is most commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and cabling systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible computer systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows-based software. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-based software. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated) misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and all non-computer-related items. Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters. However, it is not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly what would constitute a commercial posting. Further, it is not currently possible to effectively enforce a ban on commercial posting, even if such posts were clearly identifiable. As a result, it is proposed that all commercial postings must include the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the subject line. This allows everyone to use the groups as currently, and yet allows people to easily kill the commercial posts if they so desire. Further, it is neither an onerous nor a incapacitating requirement for commerical posters, who should thus hopefully be willing to co-operate with such a scheme. DISCUSSION AND VOTING The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the date in the header of this 3rd RFD. All discussion should take place in news.groups. The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if major changes are necessary, a final, 4th, RFD will be posted prior to the voting. A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion period. The vote will be run by a neutral third party. This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please refer to this document if you have questions about the process. -- [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "work for something because it is good, not simply because ] [ it has a chance to succeed." -- vaclav havel ] From [email protected] Thu Sep 1 11:15:57 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: 4th RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization, biz.marketplace.* Followup-To: news.groups Date: 1 Sep 1994 11:09:16 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 368 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5579 news.groups:114695 biz.config:292 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:74439 misc.forsale.computers.other:33635 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12729 misc.forsale.computers.mac:37943 misc.forsale.computers.d:6793 misc.forsale:156519 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION on creating misc.forsale.computers.modems misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc and removing misc.forsale.wanted misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone and renaming misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discuss [ AND creating biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in the traditional CFV. ] INTRODUCTION The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet, with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to create a logical organization for the present and the future. As a result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched; *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand the reasoning behind the proposals. RATIONALE 1. Non-computer group It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the group's traffic. A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy. 2. Platform-independent hardware While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage, .memory, .modems, .network-hardware and .printers. It was originally proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and .network-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups. 3. PC hardware The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 200 articles on most days. First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic in the PC group. These groups include .systems, .software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 4. Macintosh hardware The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 100 articles per day. First, it is proposed that the .mac be renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic. These groups include .systems, .software, .video- cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not belong in this group), .portables and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 5. Workstation hardware It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix. Further, the traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split. 6. Discussion group Finally, the .discuss group name will be far more obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used. This will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that are currently posted to the .d group. 7. Hierarchy rename In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time. 9. Wanted group It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in the specific newsgroups, and not in misc.forsale.wanted, which is barely used (only 2% of the traffic of the current .pc-clone group) and poorly propagated. As a result, it is proposed that the current .wanted group be removed. 9. Commercial posts There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is no way to enforce such a ban. As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings. This will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller. It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all commercial postings. The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well proagated; most active groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average -- and much better than misc.forsale.wanted's 25%. An active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* propagation. The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding misc.- marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994) +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 6 290000 2757 81% 5385 5.0 5.6% misc.forsale 87 110000 1194 72% 6163 5.6 2.4% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 151 90000 966 71% 2989 2.5 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.mac 160 88000 928 72% 2370 1.9 1.9% misc.forsale.computers.other 325 65000 707 70% 863 0.7 1.4% misc.forsale.computers.workstation 446 55000 603 69% 433 0.5 1.2% misc.forsale.computers.d 957 4633+0 509 45% 575 0.6 1.0% misc.forsale.computers * 2056 7200 218 25% 128 0.0 0.4% misc.forsale.wanted * obsolete group [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of the current proposal.] PROPOSED CHARTERS [Note that`all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.] misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent networking equipment. This category contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators, terminal servers and cabling systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-based software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale. computers.* subgroups, other than systems and software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.discuss (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discuss is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated) misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and all non-computer-related items. No commercial postings. The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for all biz.marketplace.* groups. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters. With the proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of business. Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still be considered acceptable. All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.* group. DISCUSSION AND VOTING The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the date in the header of this 4th RFD. All discussion should take place in news.groups. The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if major changes are necessary, a final, 5th, RFD will be posted prior to the voting. A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion period. The vote will be run by a neutral third party. This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please refer to this document if you have questions about the process. -- [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" ] From [email protected] Tue Oct 4 15:36:04 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization Followup-To: poster Date: 4 Oct 1994 14:36:45 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 464 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5735 news.groups:118935 biz.config:417 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:81937 misc.forsale.computers.other:36309 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:13976 misc.forsale.computers.mac:41685 misc.forsale.computers.d:7395 misc.forsale:162181 FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) misc.forsale.* reorganization To CREATE the unmoderated groups: misc.forsale.computers.modems misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc and REMOVE: misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone and RENAME: misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation [ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV. ] Newsgroups lines: misc.forsale.computers.modems Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation Workstations for sale and wanted. Votes must be received by 29:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only contact [email protected] For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>. INTRODUCTION The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet, with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to create a logical organization for the present and the future. As a result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched; *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand the reasoning behind the proposals. RATIONALE 1. Non-computer group It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the group's traffic. A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy. 2. Platform-independent hardware While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage, .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers. It was originally proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups. 3. PC hardware The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 200 articles on most days. First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic in the PC group. These groups include .systems, software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 4. Macintosh hardware The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 100 articles per day. First, it is proposed that the .mac be renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic. These groups include .systems, .software, cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 5. Workstation hardware It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix. Further, the traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split. 6. Discussion group Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used. This will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that are currently posted to the .d group. 7. Hierarchy rename In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time. Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.computers.*. This, however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not included in this proposal. 8. Wanted postings It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup. 9. Commercial posts There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is no way to enforce such a ban. As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings. This will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller. It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all commercial postings. The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average. An active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* propagation. The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.- marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994) +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 6 290000 2757 81% 5385 5.0 5.6% misc.forsale 87 110000 1194 72% 6163 5.6 2.4% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 151 90000 966 71% 2989 2.5 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.mac 160 88000 928 72% 2370 1.9 1.9% misc.forsale.computers.other 325 65000 707 70% 863 0.7 1.4% misc.forsale.workstation 446 55000 603 69% 433 0.5 1.2% misc.forsale.computers.d 957 4633+0 509 45% 575 0.6 1.0% misc.forsale.computers * * obsolete group [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of the current proposal.] PROPOSED CHARTERS [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.] misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent networking equipment. This category contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators, terminal servers and cabling systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-based software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.* subgroups, other than systems and software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated) misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and all non-computer-related items. No commercial postings. The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for all biz.marketplace.* groups. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters. With the proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of business. Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still be considered acceptable. All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.* group. HOW TO VOTE Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these lines and do not change the group names. Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Then mail the ballot to: [email protected] Just Replying to this message should work. -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- misc.forsale reorganization Ballot(Don't remove this marker) Give your real name here: [Your Vote] Group ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [ ] misc.forsale.computers.modems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware [ ] misc.forsale.computers.memory [ ] misc.forsale.computers.monitors [ ] misc.forsale.computers.printers [ ] misc.forsale.computers.storage [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.misc [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.mac [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.other [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone [ ] rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer [ ] rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion [ ] rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly. Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. --Brennan T. Price, UVV Running UseVote 3.0 From [email protected] Wed Oct 12 13:24:22 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Date: 12 Oct 1994 12:43:15 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 472 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5773 news.groups:120321 biz.config:424 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:83893 misc.forsale.computers.other:37102 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14300 misc.forsale.computers.mac:42604 misc.forsale.computers.d:7595 misc.forsale:163674 LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) misc.forsale.* reorganization To CREATE the unmoderated groups: misc.forsale.computers.modems misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc and REMOVE: misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone and RENAME: misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation [ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV. ] Newsgroups lines: misc.forsale.computers.modems Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation Workstations for sale and wanted. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only contact [email protected] For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>. INTRODUCTION The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet, with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups. Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items. While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to create a logical organization for the present and the future. As a result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched; *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand the reasoning behind the proposals. RATIONALE 1. Non-computer group It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the group's traffic. A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy. 2. Platform-independent hardware While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that is standardized across platforms. SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are usable on a wide variety of equipment. Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today? In .pc-clone? But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would be more interested... They might also appear as the right target market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives. Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized cross-platform peripherals. Providing a place for this hardware will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as .workstation. Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage, .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers. It was originally proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups. 3. PC hardware The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 200 articles on most days. First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic in the PC group. These groups include .systems, software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 4. Macintosh hardware The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 100 articles per day. First, it is proposed that the .mac be renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, monitors and hard disks. Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the heavy traffic. These groups include .systems, .software, cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc. Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups. Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for the reasons outlined above. 5. Workstation hardware It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix. Further, the traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split. 6. Discussion group Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used. This will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that are currently posted to the .d group. 7. Hierarchy rename In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time. Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.* groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.comp.*. This, however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not included in this proposal. 8. Wanted postings It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup. 9. Commercial posts There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is no way to enforce such a ban. As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings. This will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller. It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all commercial postings. The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average. An active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* propagation. The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.- marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings. CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994) +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V 6 290000 2757 81% 5385 5.0 5.6% misc.forsale 87 110000 1194 72% 6163 5.6 2.4% misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 151 90000 966 71% 2989 2.5 2.0% misc.forsale.computers.mac 160 88000 928 72% 2370 1.9 1.9% misc.forsale.computers.other 325 65000 707 70% 863 0.7 1.4% misc.forsale.workstation 446 55000 603 69% 433 0.5 1.2% misc.forsale.computers.d 957 4633+0 509 45% 575 0.6 1.0% misc.forsale.computers * * obsolete group [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of the current proposal.] PROPOSED CHARTERS [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.] misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent networking equipment. This category contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators, terminal servers and cabling systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-based software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.* subgroups, other than systems and software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated) misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and all non-computer-related items. No commercial postings. The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for all biz.marketplace.* groups. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters. With the proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of business. Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still be considered acceptable. All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.* group. HOW TO VOTE VOTETAKER'S NOTE: The vote counting software was incorrectly configured with a spelling error in in one of the group names, misc.forsale. computers.mac-specific.portables. This spelling error is reflected in the ballot below. All votes on "protables" have been counted and will be counted toward the "portables" vote. Please keep this in mind when filling out your ballot, and do not alter the ballot to indicate the correct spelling. Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these lines and do not change the group names. Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Then mail the ballot to: [email protected] Just Replying to this message should work. -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- misc.forsale reorganization Ballot (Don't remove this marker) Give your real name here: [Your Vote] Group ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [ ] misc.forsale.computers.modems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware [ ] misc.forsale.computers.memory [ ] misc.forsale.computers.monitors [ ] misc.forsale.computers.printers [ ] misc.forsale.computers.storage [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video [ ] misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.software [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.systems [ ] misc.forsale.computers.other.misc [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.mac [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.other [ ] remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone [ ] rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer [ ] rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion [ ] rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly. Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. --Brennan T. Price, UVV Running UseVote 3.0 From [email protected] Wed Oct 26 23:44:54 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Date: 26 Oct 1994 23:12:05 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 564 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5847 news.groups:121732 biz.config:440 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:87504 misc.forsale.computers.other:38359 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14813 misc.forsale.computers.mac:44396 misc.forsale.computers.d:7858 misc.forsale:166243 RESULT misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass misc.forsale reorganization results - 268 valid votes Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group ---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : ------------------------------------------- 225 37 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.modems 209 42 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware 223 39 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.memory 217 41 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.monitors 217 40 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.printers 220 41 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.storage 196 49 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software 196 49 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems 179 65 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables 186 58 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc 181 63 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video 197 49 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc 189 56 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards 182 62 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio 182 64 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables 187 60 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc 180 67 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video 197 52 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software 192 56 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems 197 54 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc 200 51 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.software 196 52 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.systems 197 52 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.misc 209 50 : Yes Yes : Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.mac 212 48 : Yes Yes : Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.other 211 48 : Yes Yes : Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone 216 47 : Yes Yes : Yes : rename misc.forsale to : : : misc.forsale.non-computer 209 53 : Yes Yes : Yes : rename misc.forsale.computers.d to : : : misc.forsale.computers.discussion 225 34 : Yes Yes : Yes : rename misc.forsale.workstation to : : : misc.forsale.computers.workstation 19 invalid votes Newsgroups lines: misc.forsale.computers.modems Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation Workstations for sale and wanted. Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only contact [email protected] For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>. CHARTERS [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.] misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent storage devices. Typically this is SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others. Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC tape drives) would also be acceptable. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or buy hardware-independent networking equipment. This category contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators, terminal servers and cabling systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy computer monitors. Most commonly this would be hardware-inde- pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro- luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed- frequency monitors. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers, LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal printers, line printers and pen plotters. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-based software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for Macintosh systems. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and .communications). No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.* subgroups, other than systems and software. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated) misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell or buy computer equipment. No commercial postings. misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated) misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and all non-computer-related items. No commercial postings. misc.forsale reorganization Final Vote Ack rename to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -------------------------------+ rename to misc.forsale.computers.discussion ------------------------------+| rename to misc.forsale.non-computer -----------------------------+|| remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone ----------------------------+||| remove misc.forsale.computers.other ---------------------------+|||| remove misc.forsale.computers.mac --------------------------+||||| misc.forsale.computers.other.misc -------------------------+|||||| misc.forsale.computers.other.systems ------------------------+||||||| misc.forsale.computers.other.software -----------------------+|||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc ----------------------+||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems ---------------------+|||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software --------------------+||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video ------------------+|||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc ------------------+||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables -----------------+|||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio ----------------+||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards -------------+|||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc --------------+||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video -----------+|||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc -----------+||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables -----------+|||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems ----------+||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software ---------+|||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.storage --------+||||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.printers -------+|||||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.monitors ------+||||||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.memory -----+|||||||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware ----+||||||||||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.modems ---+|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 34II5MT%[email protected] John D YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Sean Carmody YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Andrew Henry Y-YYYY------YYY-Y-YY---YYYYYY [email protected] Bill Mackela YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Scott Salzman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Arthur B. Byrn YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Avram Cheaney YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Alison Colm YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Albert Crosby YYYYYYYYNYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Steve Adams YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AFECU%[email protected] Aron Ei YYYYYY------NNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected] Colin R. Leech YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Seyed A Alavizadeh YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] G. Alexander Flett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNYNY [email protected] Alexey B.Bulychev --------------------------YYY [email protected] Eric C. Anderson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Andy Latto YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ayn Shipley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Adam Tilghman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ehvo Tewallaikmada Jarhai YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jim Ault YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ed Bailey YYYYYYYYNNNYYYNNNYYYNNNYNYNYY [email protected] David Barr YYYYYYYYNYYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Bill Baker YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Bram Cohen YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Peter Bierman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] William C Waggoner YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Bill von Hagen NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYY [email protected] Dan Birchall YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] B.J Herbison YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ronald W. Blaschke YYY--Y------YY----YY------YYY [email protected] Richard Ingraham Blu NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Bob Palmer NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Brant Pellett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected] Brad Andrews YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Leo Bresler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Andrew K. Bressen YYYNYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY---YYY [email protected] Thomas J. Bunce YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Buz Cory YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] William Ward [CONTRACTO YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Craig Bair NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Clinton Chambe YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Eric C. Carlson YYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNNYY [email protected] Carl Aude YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Mark Kupferman NNNNNNYYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNYYNYY [email protected] Robert W. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]cs.NET Charles Oliphant YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Charles Herrick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNNNNY [email protected] Chris Koenigsberg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ernest Cline YYYYYYYY--NY---Y-YYY---YYYYYY [email protected] Clive Jones --------------------------NNY [email protected] Jeffrey C. Miller NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected] Mark Crafts YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY [email protected] Matthew Cros YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] K.P Crouch NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected] Wes Hodges YYYYYYYYYYYNYYYYYYYNYYYYNYYYY [email protected] Charles T. Smith, Jr. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNYY [email protected] Peter Campbell YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dale Quigg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Richard F. Daley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY [email protected] David Reynolds NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] David Brazendale YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] David W. Richardson YYYYYYYYYYYY---Y-Y-YYYY---YNY [email protected] Seth de Lackner YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] David Dyer-Bennet YNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dave DeBry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dee-Ann LeBlanc YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] David Filippi NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] David Mosher YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected] Don Jackson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Mark dranoff NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Harold A. Driscoll YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dwight A. Schwar YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] David Medin YYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] John Dull NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNN [email protected] Dave Wiseman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Thomas Andrew Eason YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Eric W. Burger YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Eddy Black YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Edwin F. Nesman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Derek Fu YYYYYYYYNNNYYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Eiji Hirai YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Robert Smits NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Eric Edwards YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYNYYYY [email protected] Emery Lapinski YYNYYNY-NYNYNNNYNYNYYYYYYYYNY [email protected] Samu Mielonen YYYYYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Garth Fisher YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Florence K. Wood YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected] Floyd Miller YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected] Fred Monsour YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] fred ungewitter YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Sean P. Ryan YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYNN [email protected] Brian Beuning YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Gregory G. Woodbury YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYYN [email protected] Geoffrey H Spear NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNY [email protected] GillesBronchti YYYY-Y------Y-Y--YY----YYYYN- [email protected] Greg Kuperberg NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected] Glen Hoag YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Bill Godfrey YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYY--YYYYYY [email protected] Dan Goldwate YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Chris Tubutis YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YYYYYY [email protected] Hank Stephenson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Robert A. Hay YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Oliver Hellwig YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Zhi Ren Xu YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Cris J. Holdorph YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNNNYY [email protected] Helen Trillian Rose YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Harold Smoliar NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Roger H}kansson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Tsung-Hsiang Hsueh YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Howard Troughton YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ian Darwin NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYN [email protected] Josh Smith YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jim Hilsheimer YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Steven A Janow YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYN [email protected] James Chokey YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] J. D. Almand YYYYYYYYNNNYNNNNNYYYYYYNNNYYY [email protected] James DeMuth YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] John F. Bailey, Jr. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jeff Goslin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] John Gotts YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] John Harkin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jon Lewis NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected] Jason Morris Y-Y--YYYYYYY-----------YYY--- [email protected] Jon Moritz NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNYYY [email protected] Jeremy M Posner YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected] John R. 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Craig Y-YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Corp Reed YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ryan Waldron YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected] Richard Tanner NNNNNYNNNNNYNNNNNNNYNNYNNYYYY [email protected] Richard Aubry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] rj.kulman ([email protected] ----------------NNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Rohan Khaleel NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Robert Gillis YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jim Robertson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Roderick Schertler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Ronald Jones YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Michael Rothstein YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] rpwhite YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Richard Ross-Langley YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYYY [email protected] J. 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True NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Simon Lyall YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Stan Koper NNNNNN------NNNNNNNNNNNNNNYN- [email protected] Sara Langseth YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Sten M Drescher YYYYYYNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Kevin Ruddy YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dick Smith YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Sam Kamens YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Brian Sommers NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Dwight Brown NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Sarah Skovronsky YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Steve Terry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Steve Wech YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Brian Stoler YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Steve Davis YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected] Stu Labovitz YNYNNYYYNYNYYNNYNYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected] Bjorn Svartengren YYYYYY------YNYYNYNYNNN-NYYYY [email protected] steve white ------YYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected] Scott Morris YYYYNYNYNNNYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNY [email protected] Thomas Cuny YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNYY [email protected] Terry Raymond YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Thomas Lee YYNNNNYYYYYYYNNNNNNNYYYYNNNYY [email protected] Tom Guptill YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected] Tim Hogard YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYNYYYY [email protected] Thomas Gasser YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Thomas R. Kimpton YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Tom Staniszewski YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNNNYN [email protected] Tom Haapanen YYYYYYYYYYYY--YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] tom satter YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Stanley Trimble Y-YYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Tony Servies YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY U20190%[email protected] Carlo S Y---Y------------Y-YYYY------ [email protected] David Zatz YYYYYYYYYY-Y-----------YYYYYY [email protected] David Poling YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Cranston Snord YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Jacob Kirsch NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Wally Garchow YYYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNYNNYNNNNNYYY [email protected] Bill Bradley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNN [email protected] Billy Harris --Y--YYYYNNY-YYNNYYYYYYNN-YN- [email protected] Stuart Whitmore YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Mikko Hanninen YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Jeff Wolfe YYYYYYYYNNNYNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Craig Wylli YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected] Dave Sha YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYYY [email protected] Oceager Yee NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected] Yuval Kfir -----------Y-------YY--YYYYNY [email protected] THE HOBBIT YYYYYYYY----YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY Votes in error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected] Alan Peterman ! 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