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Discussion ( misc.forsale.computers.discussion )

From [email protected] Tue Jul 28 17:18:21 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2567 news.groups:54747 misc.forsale.computers:46905 misc.forsale:67416 ny.forsale:2267 nj.forsale:3701 pa.forsale:1232 ne.forsale:9208 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,ne.forsale Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:24:53 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 32  I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be: 	     	misc.forsale.computers.hardware 	misc.forsale.computers.software  At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to:  	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple	 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other 	 	misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm 	misc.forsale.computers.software.apple 	misc.forsale.computers.software.other  The reason for this RFD is that many current readers of misc.forsale. computers believe the group is too cumbersome to read/follow in its current format; simply put the volume of this group is too high for the existing format to continue being an effective means of offering computer related goods for sale.  However, there are a large number who would like to continue to see the group in its present format.   Following Usenet guidelines, ALL followup discussion on this topic should occur in news.groups ONLY.  Do not cross-post back to other groups such as misc.forsale.computers.  RFDs typically generate a large amount of traffic and can swamp a newsgroup.    Regards, --  Mike Miskulin [email protected]  From [email protected] Tue Sep  1 11:37:27 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2675 news.groups:56024 misc.forsale:70268 misc.forsale.computers:50670 ny.forsale:2454 nj.forsale:3960 pa.forsale:1354 dc.forsale:3600 misc.misc:17278 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc Path: uunet!bounce-back From: Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:17:54 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 146  ************************************************************************ * 				URGENT                                 * *								       * *  [email protected] has brought to my attention that newsgroup        * *  creation guidelines now require a SEPERATE VOTE on each group       * *  in question.  A simple ballot is contained within this CFV.  The    * *  only change is that you can vote yes/no/abstain on each of the      * *  groups in question.  PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO REVOTE IF YOU HAVE     * *  ALREADY VOTED.  I personally apologize for this error and hope that * *  it does not have an adverse effect on the outcome of this vote      * *  								       * *  Mike Miskulin       						       * ************************************************************************  This article is the FIRST CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization  of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization  will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace  the current misc.forsale.computers group.   PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.  +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+  Create: 	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like] 	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ] 	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters] 	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	 	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc] 	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]  Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.  +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+  Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone   	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.   misc.forsale.computers.mac: 	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: 	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm 	for all equipment related to communications such as 	modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software 	for all software for all hardware platforms, including 	operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers 	for all equipment relating to hard copy output 	i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage 	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, 	hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other 	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other 	miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d 	for discussions of any nature related to the selling 	of computer products on usenet and discussion of 	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group  	 If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups.  +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+  One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.    You may vote Yes No or Abstain.  Possible ways to address votes include:  [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected]	 uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			  +----------+ |  BALLOT  | +----------+  Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).   __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other  +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+    1. Discussion:       The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared      in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on       28 August 1992.    2. Voting:       The vote will run through 28 September 1992.       I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of      unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the      vote is over, I will post the final results.   3.  Waiting Period:       I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the      time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.      During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn      the fairness of the vote taker.     4.  Consummation:       After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to       create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be       made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.   If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the  middle of October 1992. --  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------  From [email protected] Thu Sep 17 14:46:14 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2735 news.groups:56676 misc.forsale:71757 misc.forsale.computers:52636 ny.forsale:2554 nj.forsale:4083 pa.forsale:1409 dc.forsale:3737 misc.misc:17377 ba.market.computers:8565 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 18:35:04 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 134  This article is the *SECOND* CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization  of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization  will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace  the current misc.forsale.computers group.   PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.  PLEASE USE THE BALLOT CONTAINED IN THIS ARTICLE   +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+  Create: 	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like] 	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ] 	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters] 	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	 	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc] 	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]  Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.  +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+  Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone   	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.   misc.forsale.computers.mac: 	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: 	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm 	for all equipment related to communications such as 	modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software 	for all software for all hardware platforms, including 	operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers 	for all equipment relating to hard copy output 	i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage 	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, 	hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other 	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other 	miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d 	for discussions of any nature related to the selling 	of computer products on usenet and discussion of 	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group  	 If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups.  +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+  One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.    You may vote Yes No or Abstain.  Possible ways to address votes include:  [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected]	 uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			  +----------+ |  BALLOT  | +----------+  Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).   __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other  +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+    1. Discussion:       The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared      in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on       28 August 1992.    2. Voting:       The vote will run through 28 September 1992.       I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of      unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the      vote is over, I will post the final results.   3.  Waiting Period:       I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the      time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.      During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn      the fairness of the vote taker.     4.  Consummation:       After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to       create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be       made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.   If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the  middle of October 1992. --  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------  From [email protected] Mon Sep 28 11:13:17 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2779 news.groups:57055 misc.forsale:72590 misc.forsale.computers:54050 ny.forsale:2613 nj.forsale:4161 pa.forsale:1428 dc.forsale:3830 misc.misc:17432 ba.market.computers:8757 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: misc.forsale.computers Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: Ballot Box for mfc reorg vote <[email protected]> Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:55:49 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 585  This article is the THIRD & FINAL CALL FOR VOTES on a reorganization  of the misc.forsale.computers newsgroup. This reorganization  will provide for the creation of up to nine new groups to replace  the current misc.forsale.computers group.   (vote ack at the end)  PLEASE EXAMINE THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING ON IT.  PLEASE USE THE BALLOT INCLUDED IN THIS ARTICLE TO VOTE. +----------+ | PROPOSAL | +----------+  Create: 	misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         [ibm clone systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.mac		[mac systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.workstation	[i.e. sun/next/hp systems] 	misc.forsale.computers.comm		[modems and the like] 	misc.forsale.computers.software		[all software, o/s ] 	misc.forsale.computers.printers		[printers/plotters] 	misc.forsale.computers.storage		[disk/tape/cdrom]	 	misc.forsale.computers.other		[books,other systems,misc] 	misc.forsale.computers.d		[flame wars,reviews]  Remove:	misc.forsale.computers if misc.forsale.computers.other passes.  +-----------+ | RATIONALE | +-----------+  Misc.forsale.computers currently suffers from a high volume of postings covering many diverse subjects.  This reorganization attempts to create a more effective structure to place computer related merchandise for sale on usenet. Individually:  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone   	for computer systems based on the IBM pc.   misc.forsale.computers.mac: 	for computer systems based on the Apple Macintosh misc.forsale.computers.workstations: 	for any system known as a workstation (ie Sun, HP) misc.forsale.computers.comm 	for all equipment related to communications such as 	modems and fax cards misc.forsale.computers.software 	for all software for all hardware platforms, including 	operating systems misc.forsale.computers.printers 	for all equipment relating to hard copy output 	i.e. printers and plotters misc.forsale.computers.storage 	for all mass storage devices such as floppy drives, 	hard disks and cd-roms misc.forsale.computers.other 	for books, other hardware platforms (ie VAX) and other 	miscellaneous items. misc.forsale.computers.d 	for discussions of any nature related to the selling 	of computer products on usenet and discussion of 	postings to any other misc.forsale.computer.* group  	 If misc.forsale.computers.other and at least one other ad group pass, then misc.forsale.computers will be removed three months after the creation of the new groups.  +---------------+ | VOTING METHOD | +---------------+  One mailbox address has been set up to record votes.    You may vote Yes No or Abstain.  Possible ways to address votes include:  [email protected] mfcvote%[email protected]	 uunet!qedqcd!mfcvote			  +----------+ |  BALLOT  | +----------+  Please replace the __ with your vote (Y=YES, N=NO, A=ABSTAIN).   __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.mac __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.workstation __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.software __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.comm __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.printers __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.storage __ creation of misc.forsale.computers.d __ rename of misc.forsale.computers to misc.forsale.computers.other  +----------+ | SCHEDULE | +----------+    1. Discussion:       The official discussion period began when the first RFD appeared      in news.announce.newgroups, that is, 28 July 1992.  It ended on       28 August 1992.    2. Voting:       The vote will run through 28 September 1992.       I will post a second Call For Votes, and possibly a list of      unreachable return addresses, during the voting period.  When the      vote is over, I will post the final results.   3.  Waiting Period:       I will observe the normal waiting period of five days from the      time that the final results appear in news.announce.newgroups.      During this time, people may report lost votes and/or impugn      the fairness of the vote taker.     4.  Consummation:       After the waiting period, the appropriate control messages to       create all new newsgroups and remove the existing group will be       made.  About one week later, the control messages will be re-issued.   If the reorganization passes all changes will take effect by the  middle of October 1992. --  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Miskulin		[email protected]	70053,[email protected] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   THE FOLLOWING HAVE SENT VALID VOTES AS OF 9/27/92:  Bernhard G. Fleuti @chx400.switch.ch, Network [email protected],  [email protected] (Allan Rickards)  /usr/spool/mail/gopstein <[email protected]> [email protected] Abraham Kabanda <[email protected]> Adam Shostack <[email protected]> Adlai Waksman <[email protected]> Al Kossow <[email protected]> Albert Liu <[email protected]> Alex Dillard <[email protected]> Alex Lecea <[email protected]> Alexis Rosen <[email protected]> Alicia Lee Salomon <[email protected]> Allan Rickards <[email protected]> Andreas Meyer <[email protected]> Andrew Bressen <[email protected]> Andrew Bros <[email protected]> Andrew J. Kass <[email protected]> Andrew J. Petrarca <[email protected]> Andrew Ward <[email protected]> Andrew webster <[email protected]> Android Rubin <[email protected]> Andy Wright <[email protected]> Apollo Wong <[email protected]> Arne Henrik Juul <[email protected]> Arthur T. McClinton <[email protected]> Austin Phelps <[email protected]> B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110 <[email protected]> Baldwin Ng <[email protected]> Barbara Bury <[email protected]> Barry Margolin <[email protected]> Bdale Garbee <[email protected]> Beaker <[email protected]> Bill Bogstad <[email protected]> Bill Reeves <[email protected]> Bob Kupiec <[email protected]> Bob Shew <[email protected]> Bob Sichler <[email protected]> Bob Vaughan <[email protected]> Bob Williams <[email protected]> Brad Wallet <[email protected]> Brent Earl <[email protected]> Brian Catlin <[email protected]> Brian Court <[email protected]> Brian Curtiss <[email protected]> Brian Kenney <[email protected]> Brian Michael Patten <[email protected]> Bruce Clement <[email protected]> Bruce Mackey <[email protected]> Casey Bahr <[email protected]> Cathi Cook <[email protected]> Charles Fee <[email protected]> Charlie Pilzer <[email protected]> Chip Rosenthal <[email protected]> Chip Salzenberg <[email protected]> Chris Blackmon <[email protected]> Chris Ellington <[email protected]> Chris Wolf <[email protected]> Christophe M. Kalisiak <[email protected]> Christopher Jeanrichard <[email protected]> Christopher Oliver <[email protected]> Christopher Wroten <[email protected]> Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath <[email protected]> Clark Coffman <[email protected]> Cloyce. <[email protected]> Curtis Chen <[email protected]> D. Brian Kimmel <[email protected]> D. W. James <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Dale Call <[email protected]> Dana Jacobsen <[email protected]> Dane Hendrix <[email protected]> Darius S. Naqvi <[email protected]> Darren Stalder <[email protected]> Daryl Biberdorf <[email protected]> Dave Friedman <[email protected]> Dave Lampe <[email protected]> Dave Medin <[email protected]> Dave Wiseman <[email protected]> David 574-7299 <[email protected]> David A. Berson <[email protected]> David Barr <[email protected]> David Heiney <[email protected]> David Kline <[email protected]> David Lively <[email protected]> David Muir Sharnoff <[email protected]> David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637 <[email protected]> David S. Miller <[email protected]> David S.A. Stine <[email protected]> David Schankin <[email protected]> Dean M. Phillips <[email protected]> Denis Concordel <[email protected]> Desmond Fuller <[email protected]> Dick Sweet <[email protected]> Don Ried <[email protected]> Donald H. Locker <[email protected]> Doug Greenwald <[email protected]> Doug Peckham <[email protected]> Doug Philips <[email protected]> Duckie Shiau <[email protected]> Dwight A. Schwartz <[email protected]> Ed Bailey <[email protected]> Ed Paradis <[email protected]> Edmund Burnette <[email protected]> Edward Bertsch <[email protected]> Edward Feustel <[email protected]> Edward Reid <[email protected]> Elizabeth Schwartz <[email protected]> Ellen Yu <[email protected]> Elliott Kleinrock <[email protected]> Emru Townsend <[email protected]> Eric  Gaumond <[email protected]> Eric J. Bartelsman <[email protected]et.uu.net> Eric J. Olson <[email protected]> Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320 <[email protected]> Eric Shepherd <[email protected]> Erik Seaberg <[email protected]> Floyd Davidson <[email protected]> Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems <[email protected]> Foster Schucker <[email protected]> Fred Heutte <[email protected]> Fred Rump from home <[email protected]> >From rare places come rare experiences. 01-Sep-1992 0818 <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Gary Goldberg <[email protected]> Gary Morris <[email protected]> Geoff Peck <[email protected]> Geoffrey Hopcraft <[email protected]> George S Kaczowka <[email protected]> Gerry Swetsky <[email protected]> Gilles Detillieux <[email protected]> Glenn Gray <[email protected]> Gordon Dohle <[email protected]> Graeme Hart <[email protected]> Greg Franklin <[email protected]> Greg Moore <[email protected]> Gregory G. Woodbury <[email protected]> Gregory Gulik <[email protected]> Gregory M Marr <[email protected]> Gwochyuan Chen <[email protected]> Harry Bloomberg <[email protected]> Hiroto Shibuya <[email protected]> Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani <[email protected]> [email protected] Hsin-Yuan Huang <[email protected]> Huma Dragonbane <[email protected]> I can't drive 55 <[email protected]> In-Jerng Choe <[email protected]> Irving Shang-Yi Hsu <[email protected]> J. Eric Townsend <[email protected]> J. Scott Anderson <[email protected]> J. Scott Farrow <[email protected]> J. Taggart Gorman <[email protected]> J.W. <[email protected]> Jack Decker <[email protected]> Jack Previdi <[email protected]> James H. Cloos Jr. <[email protected]> James Offutt <[email protected]> James Ralston Crawford <[email protected]> Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting <[email protected]> Jan Timm <[email protected]> Jason Galanter <[email protected]> Jay Maynard <[email protected]> Jean-Jacques P. Drolet <[email protected]> Jeff Dairiki <[email protected]> Jeff Goldader <[email protected]> Jeff Meyer <[email protected]> Jeff Miller <[email protected]> Jeff Szczepanski <[email protected]> Jeff Wishnie <[email protected]> Jeffrey C Jodoin <[email protected]> Jerry Gally <[email protected]> Jerry Gulla <[email protected]> Jerry Leichter <[email protected]> Jerry Miller <[email protected]> Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A <[email protected]> Jim A Snowden <[email protected]> Jim Apriletti <[email protected]> Jim Ault <[email protected]> Jim Cabral <[email protected]> Jim Liston <[email protected]> Jim Vienneau  - Sun Microsystems <[email protected]> Jim Williams <[email protected]> Joe Kelsey <[email protected]> Joel C. Justen <[email protected]> John Bailey <[email protected]> John Burnette <[email protected]> John Conner <[email protected]> John D. Zitterkopf <[email protected]> John Harkin <[email protected]> John Lee <[email protected]> John Lynch Davis <[email protected]> John Mahoney <[email protected]> John Townsend <[email protected]> John Will <[email protected]> Jonathan B. Horen <[email protected]> Jonathan Kruger <[email protected]> Jonathan Thornburg <[email protected]> Jong Y. Lee <[email protected]> Joseph Malloy <[email protected]> Joseph O. Hines Jr. <[email protected]> Joshua Kronengold <[email protected]> Jueychong Ong <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] Kamesh Ramakrishna <[email protected]> Keith Ward N5OOD <[email protected]> Keith Woodard <[email protected]> Kelly Deyoe <[email protected]> Ken Olum <[email protected]> Kenneth Fribert <[email protected]> Kent Dalton <[email protected]> Kevin Nechodom <[email protected]> Kevin O'Gorman <[email protected]> Kevin_Story <[email protected]> Khushro Shahookar <[email protected]> Kim DeVaughn <[email protected]> Kristen McQuillin <[email protected]> L L Campbell <[email protected]> Larry Gilmore <[email protected]> Larry Larson <[email protected]> Lee Chen <[email protected]> Lee Havemann <[email protected]> Leon Wicki <[email protected]> Leonid V. Yakovlev <[email protected]> Levin F Magruder <[email protected]> Life... <[email protected]> Lisa Bjarke <[email protected]> Lori Inglett <[email protected]> [email protected] Marc G. Frank <[email protected]> Marc Moorcroft <[email protected]> MargARET D. Gibbs <[email protected]> Margaret Keller <[email protected]> Mario Goertzel <[email protected]> Mark Adam <[email protected]> Mark Ng <[email protected]> Mark Purtill <[email protected]> Mark Sicignano <[email protected]> Mark Solsman <[email protected]> Mark Vidov <[email protected]> Marshall Abrams <[email protected]> Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services <[email protected]> Matthew C. Jones <[email protected]> Matthew Coriale (x37975 <[email protected]> Matthew E. Merkelson <[email protected]> Michael Browner <[email protected]> Michael Chang <[email protected]> Michael F Horgan <[email protected]> Michael Faurot <[email protected]> Michael George Buening <[email protected]> Michael L. Hall <[email protected]> Michael P. Deffendall <[email protected]> Michael P. Deignan <[email protected]> Michael R Linksvayer <[email protected]> Michael Schuh <[email protected]> Mike A. Pasek <[email protected]> Mike Campbell  <[email protected]> Mike Dodd <[email protected]> Mike Herman <[email protected]> Mike Johnston <[email protected]> Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> Mike Murphy <[email protected]> Mike Shirley <[email protected]> Munkacsy <[email protected]> Murray Nesbitt <[email protected]> Nathan Lee <[email protected]> Nick Duffek <[email protected]> Noe Garza <[email protected]> Not A Random Name <[email protected]> [email protected] Oleg Rovner <[email protected]> OmniSoft <[email protected]> [email protected] Otto Heuer #3 <[email protected]> [email protected] Pat Kane <[email protected]> Patrick Clancey <[email protected]> Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems) <[email protected]> Paul Alexander Gomme <[email protected]> Paul C. Romano <[email protected]> Paul Hutmacher <[email protected]> Paul Robichaux <[email protected]> [email protected] Pete Boulay <[email protected]> Peter C. Sun <[email protected]> Peter Clitherow <[email protected]> Peter Vines <[email protected]> Peter Von Ege <[email protected]> Peter W. De Bonte <[email protected]> Phil Kramer <[email protected]> RAVEN Winter <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Randolph Turner <[email protected]> Randy Bush <[email protected]> Ray Lampman <[email protected]> Rich Brennan <[email protected]> Richard Gorton <[email protected]> Richard H. Miller <[email protected]> Richard Kulawiec <[email protected]> Richard P. Muller <[email protected]> Richard Pan  <[email protected]> Richard Reiner <[email protected]> Rick O'Shea <[email protected]> Rick Rodman <[email protected]> Rob Cartaino <[email protected]> Robert J. McNamara <[email protected]> Robert Landry <[email protected]> Robert Myhre <[email protected]> Robert Rhode <[email protected]> Ron HALL <[email protected]> Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199 <[email protected]> Russ Jorgensen <[email protected]> [email protected] Sam Hill Cabal, DS <[email protected]> Samuel Roy Helwig <[email protected]> Sandy Bendremer <[email protected]> Sandy Duveneck <[email protected]> Sascha Wildner <[email protected]> Scott Barman <[email protected]> Scott Blachowicz <[email protected]> Scott Curry <[email protected]> Scott D. Curtin <[email protected]> Scott I. Logan <[email protected]> Sean Petty <[email protected]> Soroka Alexander Vasilevich <[email protected]> Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow <[email protected]> Stephan Heilmayr <[email protected]> Stephan Muhs <[email protected]> Steve Gibbons <[email protected]> Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service <[email protected]> Steve Turner <[email protected]> Steven White <[email protected]> Stu Labovitz <[email protected]> Stuart M Lichtenthal <[email protected]> Stuart Milton <[email protected]> Stuart S Goldstone <[email protected]> Sunil Gupta <[email protected]> System Operator <[email protected]> Ted Koppel <[email protected]> Theo Deraadt <[email protected]> Thomas Aaron Insel <[email protected]> Thomas Arneberg <[email protected]> Tim Ramsey <[email protected]> Tim Sullivan <[email protected]> Tim Tyhurst <[email protected]> Timothy VanFosson <[email protected]> Timothy W Tjarks <[email protected]> Todd Cooper <[email protected]> Todd Heatherton <[email protected]> Todd Mummert <[email protected]> Tom Atwater <[email protected]> Tom Fitzgerald <[email protected]> Tom Haapanen <[email protected]> Tomislav Lozic <[email protected]> Tony Matt <[email protected]> Toshi Takeuchi <[email protected]> Tuomas Siren <[email protected]> Ulf Bahrenfuss <[email protected]> V Balaji <[email protected]> Valerie E Polichar <[email protected]> Vern <[email protected]> Vijay Tulsiani <[email protected]> Vincent Hurtubise <[email protected]> Wesner L. Precil <[email protected]> William R. Quayle <[email protected]> William Y. Lai <[email protected]> Yat Lok L. Cheung <[email protected]> Zeke Koch <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] bill d'Amico <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] dan  cornett <[email protected]> [email protected] deborah samuels <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] eh? <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] gordon e. banks <[email protected]> [email protected] gregory d moncreaff <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] kmc[email protected] [email protected] [email protected] lhanson <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] moebius <[email protected]> [email protected] (Roger Barth) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] rodrigo vanegas <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] shawn <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] the stupid one <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] victor porguen <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] william E Davidsen <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Fri Oct  9 16:10:39 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2816 news.groups:57597 misc.forsale:73452 misc.forsale.computers:55348 ny.forsale:2678 nj.forsale:4254 pa.forsale:1468 dc.forsale:3922 misc.misc:17532 ba.market.computers:8998 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers,ny.forsale,nj.forsale,pa.forsale,dc.forsale,misc.misc,ba.market.computers Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Mike Miskulin) Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.computers reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: High Energy Concepts Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:21:58 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Lines: 515      Proposal    Yes   No  Abs    Margin  % in favor    Result   ==========    =============    ==================    ======         comm    307  172    9      135     64.1%        FAIL            d    341  133   14      208     71.9%        PASS          mac    343  137    8      206     71.5%        PASS         other    325  149   14      176     68.6%        PASS     pc-clone    344  138    6      206     71.4%        PASS     printers    310  168   10      142     64.9%        FAIL      software    320  164    4      156     66.1%        FAIL      storage    303  173   12      130     63.7%        FAIL  workstation    326  148   14      178     68.8%        PASS   488 total votes 239(49.0%) all-yes votes 105(21.5%) all-no votes 0(0.0%) all-abstain votes.  Proposals needed 100 more yes votes than no votes and at least twice as many yes votes as no votes.  Attached is a list of the individual votes which were received and counted.  The listing is given in rudimentary alphabetic order. Votes are arranged in the same order as the above summary.  NYANANNNN  /usr/spool/mail/gopstein <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Abraham Kabanda <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Adam Shostack <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Adlai Waksman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Al Kossow [email protected]> YYYYYNYYN  Alan Peterman <[email protected]> NYNYNNYNN  Alex Dillard <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Alex Lecea <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Alex Matulich <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Alexis Rosen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Alicia Lee Salomon <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Allan Rickards <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Andreas Meyer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYN  Andrew Bressen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Andrew Bros <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Andrew J. Kass" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Andrew J. Petrarca" <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNN  Andrew Ward <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Andrew webster <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Android Rubin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Andy Wright <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Anthony Wei <[email protected]> YYAYYYYYY  "Antonio J Salerno, Jr" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Apollo Wong <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Arne Henrik Juul <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Arthur T. McClinton" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Austin Phelps <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "B.J. 02-Sep-1992 1110" <[email protected]> YAYYYAYAY  Baldwin Ng <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Barbara Bury <[email protected]> YYYYYNNNY  Barry Margolin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Bdale Garbee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Beaker <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bill Bogstad <[email protected]> NAYYYNNNY  Bill Reeves <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  Bob Kupiec <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY  Bob Shew <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bob Sichler <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bob Vaughan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bob Williams <[email protected]> NNYNYNYNY  Bob Witmer <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Brad Wallet <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Brent Earl <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Brian Catlin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Brian Court <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Brian Curtiss <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Brian D Pollard <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY  Brian Kenney <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Brian Michael Patten <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Clement <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Mackey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Bruce Oneel  <[email protected]> AYYNYYYYY  Casey Bahr <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Cathi Cook <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Chad Burkins <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY  Charles Fee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Charlie Pilzer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Chih-Pong Lin <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Chip Rosenthal <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Chip Salzenberg <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Chris Blackmon <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Chris Ellington <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Chris Penington <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Chris Wolf <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Christophe M. Kalisiak" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Jeanrichard <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Oliver <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Christopher Wroten <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Chuck 'Down But Not Out' McMath <[email protected]> NNNYNNYNN  Chuck Farmer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Clark Coffman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Cloyce." <[email protected]> YYYAYYYAA  Craig Carpenter Harris Corp/ISD Phone (407)984-6444 Fax (407)984-6327 <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Craig Presnell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Curtis Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "D. Brian Kimmel" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "D. W. James" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NYNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Dale Call <[email protected]> YYYYYAYYY  Dana Jacobsen <[email protected]> NAYYYNYAA  Dane Hendrix <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Darius S. Naqvi" <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Dark Elf <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  Darren Stalder <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Daryl Biberdorf <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Dave Frederick <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Dave Friedman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Dave Lampe <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Dave Medin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Dave Wiseman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  David 574-7299 <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "David A. Berson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  David Barr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  David Heiney <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY  David Kline <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  David Lively <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  David Muir Sharnoff <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYA  "David Richardson, UTA, +1 817 856 6637" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "David S. Miller" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "David S.A. Stine" <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY  David Schankin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Dean M. Phillips" <[email protected]> NYYYYYYNY  Denis Concordel <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Desmond Fuller <[email protected]> AYYYYYAAA  Dick Sweet <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Don Ried <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY  Don Sawtelle <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Donald H. Locker" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Doug Greenwald <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Doug Peckham <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Doug Philips <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Douglas Plant <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Duckie Shiau <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Dwight A. Schwartz" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Ed Bailey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Ed Paradis <[email protected]> YYYYNYYYY  Edmund Burnette <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Edward Bertsch <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Edward Feustel <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Edward Reid <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN  Elizabeth Schwartz <[email protected]> NYYYYYYNY  Ellen Yu <[email protected]> AYAYYYYYY  Elliott Kleinrock <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Emru Townsend <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY  Eric  Gaumond <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  "Eric J. Bartelsman" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Eric J. Olson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Eric Loyd - Data Center Operations, x7320" <[email protected]> YYNYNYYYN  Eric Shepherd <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Erik Seaberg <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  F Harvell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Floyd Davidson <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY  "Forrest Howard, Director of Parallel Systems" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Foster Schucker <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Fred Heutte <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Fred Rump from home <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Gabe Helou <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Gary Goldberg <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY  Gary Morris <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Geoff Peck <[email protected]> YYNYYYYYY  Geoffrey Hopcraft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  George S Kaczowka <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  Gerry Swetsky <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Gilles Detillieux <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Glenn Gray <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Gordon Dohle <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Graeme Hart <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY  Greg Franklin <[email protected]> NYNNNYYYN  Greg Moore <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Gregory G. Woodbury" <[email protected]> NYNNNNYNN  Gregory Gulik <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Gregory M Marr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Gwochyuan Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Harry Bloomberg <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Hiroto Shibuya <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY  Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Hsin-Yuan Huang <[email protected]> YAYAYNYNA  Huma Dragonbane <[email protected]> NYYYNYYYY  I can't drive 55 <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  In-Jerng Choe <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Irving Shang-Yi Hsu <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "J. Eric Townsend" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "J. Scott Anderson" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "J. Scott Farrow" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "J. Taggart Gorman" <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  "J.W." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  JOHN FISKIO-LASSETER <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  JOHN HEIM <[email protected]> YAAYYYNYA  Jack Decker <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jack McKinney <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jack Previdi <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "James H. Cloos Jr." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  James Offutt <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  James Ralston Crawford <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting" <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  Jan Sondergaard <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Jan Timm <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Jason Galanter <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jay Maynard <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Jean-Jacques P. Drolet" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNNY  Jeff Dairiki <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Jeff Goldader <[email protected]> YYYYYYNNY  Jeff Meyer <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Jeff Miller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jeff Szczepanski <[email protected]> NYYNYYNYY  Jeff Wishnie <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jeffrey C Jodoin <[email protected]> YYYAYYNYY  Jeffrey Komori <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Gally <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Gulla <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jerry Leichter <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Jerry Miller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim -- DTN 223-5747 -- Moved to MLO5-2/13A <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Jim A Snowden <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Apriletti <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Ault <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Cabral <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Liston <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Liston <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Jim Vienneau  - Sun Microsystems <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jim Williams <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Joe Kelsey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Joel C. Justen" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Johan A. Grape" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  John Bailey <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  John Burnette <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  John Conner <[email protected]> NYAYYANNA  "John D. Zitterkopf" <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  John Harkin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  John Lee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  John Lynch Davis <[email protected]> NYNNNYYNN  John Mahoney <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY  John Townsend <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "John W. Schwegler" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  John Will <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Jonathan B. Horen" <[email protected]> YYNNNYYYN  Jonathan Kruger <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Jonathan Thornburg <[email protected]> YYYYYNYYN  "Jong Y. Lee" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Joseph Malloy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Joseph O. Hines Jr." <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Joshua Kronengold <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Jueychong Ong <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NYNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYAAYY  [email protected] AYYYAYYYY  Kamesh Ramakrishna <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Karl A. Nyberg" <[email protected]> YYAAAAYYA  Keith Ward N5OOD <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Keith Woodard <[email protected]> YYYYYNYYN  Kelly Deyoe <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Ken Olum <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Kenneth Fribert <[email protected]> YYYYYNNYY  Kent Dalton <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Kevin Nechodom <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Kevin O'Gorman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Kevin_Story <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Khushro Shahookar <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Kim DeVaughn <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Kristen McQuillin <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  L L Campbell <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Larry Gilmore <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Larry Larson <[email protected]> YNNYYYYYY  Lee Chen <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Lee Havemann <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Leon Wicki <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Leonid V. Yakovlev" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Levin F Magruder <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY  "Life..." <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Lisa Bjarke <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Lisa Parry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Lori Inglett <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYA  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  "Marc G. Frank" <[email protected]> NNNNNNANN  Marc Moorcroft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "MargARET D. Gibbs" <[email protected]> AAYAYAYAA  Margaret Keller <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mario Goertzel <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNN  Mark Adam <[email protected]> NNYNNNNNN  Mark Ng <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mark Purtill <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY  Mark Sicignano <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Mark Solsman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Mark Vidov <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Marshall Abrams <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Marty Rattner - SMCC Professional Services <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Matthew Blum <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Matthew C. Jones" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  "Matthew Coriale (x37975" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Matthew E. Merkelson" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Michael Browner <[email protected]> NNNNNNYNN  Michael Chang <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Michael F Horgan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Michael Faurot <[email protected]> YYYYYYYAY  "Michael G. Reed" <[email protected]> NAYYYNYNY  Michael George Buening <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Michael L. Hall" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Michael P. Deffendall" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Michael R Linksvayer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Michael Schuh <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Mike A. Pasek" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mike Campbell  <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Mike Dodd <[email protected]> NNYYYYYNN  Mike Herman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mike Johnston <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mike Miskulin <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Mike Murphy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Mike Shirley <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Munkacsy <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Murray Nesbitt <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Nathan Lee <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Nick Duffek <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Noe Garza <[email protected]> NNYNYNYYN  Not A Random Name <[email protected]> NNYNYNYNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  Oleg Rovner <[email protected]> YNYYYYNYY  OmniSoft <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Otto Heuer #3 <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNYNN  Pat Kane <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Patrick Clancey <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Patrick LEROY (Bull Worldwide Information Systems)" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Patrick Wei <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Paul Alexander Gomme <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Paul C. Romano" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Paul Hutmacher <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Paul Robichaux <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Paul Vargo <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Paul Wei <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYNNYNNY  Pete Boulay <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Peter C. Sun" <[email protected]> YAYAAAYYY  Peter Clitherow <[email protected]> AYYYYYYNA  Peter Vines <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Peter Von Ege <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN  Phil Kramer <[email protected]> AYYYYAYAY  RAVEN Winter <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Randolph Turner <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Randy Bush <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY  Ray Lampman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Rich Brennan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Richard Gorton <[email protected]> NNYNYNNNN  "Richard H. Miller" <[email protected]> YYYAYYNYY  Richard Kulawiec <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Richard P. Muller" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Richard Pan  <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Richard Reiner <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  Rick DeMattia <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Rick O'Shea <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Rick Rodman <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Rob Cartaino <[email protected]> NNYYYNYNY  "Robert J. McNamara" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Robert Landry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Robert Myhre <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Robert Rhode <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Rodrick Su <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Ron HALL <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Ron Vyhmeister (312)-996-5199" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Russ Jorgensen <[email protected]> YYYNYYYYY  Ryan Waldron <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYAYYYYY  "Sam Hill Cabal, DS" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Samuel Roy Helwig <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Sandy Bendremer <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Sandy Duveneck <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Sascha Wildner <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Scott Barman <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Scott Blachowicz <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Scott Curry <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Scott I. Logan" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Sean Petty <[email protected]> YYAYYYYAY  Soroka Alexander Vasilevich <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "Stanley (S.T.H.) Chow" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Stephan Heilmayr <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Stephan Muhs <[email protected]> NYYYYYYYY  "Stephen P. Potter" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYAY  Steve Gibbons <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Steve Pike - Sun Customer Service <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Steve Turner <[email protected]> NYYYYNNYY  Steven White <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  Stu Labovitz <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Stuart M Lichtenthal <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Stuart Milton <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Stuart S Goldstone <[email protected]> YYYAYYYYY  Sunil Gupta <[email protected]> YYYNYYNYY  System Operator <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Ted Koppel <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Theo Deraadt <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Thomas Aaron Insel <[email protected]> YNYYYYNYY  Thomas Arneberg <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  "Thomas C. Burns" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Tim Ramsey <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Tim Sullivan <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Tim Tyhurst <[email protected]> YNYYYAYAY  Timothy VanFosson <[email protected]> YNYYYYAYY  Timothy W Tjarks <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Todd Cooper <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Todd Heatherton <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Todd Mummert <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Tom Atwater <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Tom Fitzgerald <[email protected]> YAYYYYYYY  Tom Haapanen <[email protected]> NYNNNNNNN  "Tom. Adams 529-7860" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Tomislav Lozic <[email protected]> YYAYYYNYY  Tony Matt <[email protected]> YYYYAYNAA  Toshi Takeuchi <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Tuomas Siren <[email protected]> NYYYYNYNY  Ulf Bahrenfuss <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  V Balaji <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY  Valerie E Polichar <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY  Vern <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  Vijay Tulsiani <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Vincent Hurtubise <[email protected]> ANYAAYYYY  "Wesner L. Precil" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  Will Fitzgerald <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "William R. Quayle" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  "William Y. Lai" <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  "Yat Lok L. Cheung" <[email protected]> YYYYYYNYY  Zeke Koch <[email protected]> YYNNNYYNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  "andrew m. boardman" <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] AYYYYAYAY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  bill d'Amico <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  Bernhard G. Fleuti <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  dan  cornett <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYNNY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  deborah samuels <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  eh? <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YNYYYYYYY  "gordon e. banks" <[email protected]> YNYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  gregory d moncreaff <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NYNANNNNA  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  james keen U <[email protected]> NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNYYYNYNY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NYNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NAYNYNNNA  lhanson <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NYYNYNNNY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  moebius <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] (Roger Barth) YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYAYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YNYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYNYYYNNY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  rodrigo vanegas <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  shawn <[email protected]> NYYYYNNNY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NYNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  the stupid one <[email protected]> YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] YYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNYYYNYNN  victor porguen <[email protected]> NYYYYYYYY  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  [email protected] NNNNNNNNN  william E Davidsen <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Wed Jun 29 13:30:19 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d Subject: RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups Followup-To: news.groups Date: 29 Jun 1994 10:51:03 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 100 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5295 news.groups:107438 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:60924 misc.forsale.computers.other:28619 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:10689 misc.forsale.computers.mac:31556 misc.forsale.computers.d:5738                          REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION                              on creating                    misc.forsale.computers.storage                    misc.forsale.computers.communications                    misc.forsale.computers.monitors                    misc.forsale.computers.printers   RATIONALE     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of     subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software:         misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         misc.forsale.computers.other         misc.forsale.computers.workstation         comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*)      While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a     Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not      take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that     is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,     laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are     usable on a wide variety of equipment.      Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?     But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?     But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would     be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target     market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be cropssposted     to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.      Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized     cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware     will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will     also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as     .workstation.  CURRENT READERSHIP DATA         +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.         |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population         |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all         |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)         |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)         |     |     |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders         |     |     |      |    |      |    who read this group.         V     V     V      V    V      V    109 150000  1243   72%  5486   4.9    2.5%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone   172 14633+0  1041   70%  2935   2.6    2.1%  misc.forsale.computers.mac   194 120000   989   72%  2233   1.6    2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.other   331  99000   819   69%   967   0.7    1.6%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation   445  86000   717   69%   361   0.4    1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.d   PROPOSED CHARTERS     misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Hardware-dependent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.      misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most         commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but         also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and         cabling systems.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  DISCUSSION AND VOTING     The discussion period lasts for 21 days from the date in the header     of this article.  All discussion should take place in news.groups.     The groups in this proposal are subject to change, and if necessary,     a second, revised RFD will be posted prior to the end of the      discussion period.      A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion     period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.      This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation     guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please     refer to this document if you have questions about the process. --  [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "the edsel is here to stay"                            -- henry ford, 1957 ]  From [email protected] Thu Jul 28 17:24:42 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d Subject: 2nd RFD: misc.forsale.computers.* new groups Followup-To: news.groups Date: 28 Jul 1994 16:26:15 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 151 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5401 news.groups:110020 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:66875 misc.forsale.computers.other:30921 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:11576 misc.forsale.computers.mac:34316 misc.forsale.computers.d:6153                          REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION                              on creating                 misc.forsale.computers.communications                     misc.forsale.computers.memory                    misc.forsale.computers.monitors                    misc.forsale.computers.printers                     misc.forsale.computers.storage                              and renaming               misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer   misc.forsale.computers.mac to misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone to misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific     misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion  RATIONALE     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      The last misc.forsale.computers reorganization created a number of     subgroups for the sale of computer hardware and software:         misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone         misc.forsale.computers.other         misc.forsale.computers.workstation         comp.sys.macintosh.wanted (*separate hierarchy*)      While this division makes it clear where to sell or to look for a     Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does not      take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that     is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,     laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are     usable on a wide variety of equipment.      Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?     But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?     But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would     be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target     market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted     to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.      Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized     cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware     will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will     also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as     .workstation.  	Also, it is proposed that the .pc-clone and .mac groups be renamed to 	.pc-specific and .mac-specific to make it clear that these groups are 	intended for PC- and Macintosh-specific hardware only, and not for 	items such as printers, monitors and hard disks.  It is proposed that 	the .workstation group not be renamed to .unix-only, since workstations 	may or may not run Unix, and both PCs and Macintoshes are also capable  	of running Unix.  	Finally, it is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to 	misc.forsale.non-computer, as it is currently inundated with a variety 	of assorted and various postings about computer equipment.  A clear 	name will hopefully assist in retaining this group for things other  	than computers.  Similarly, the .discussion group name will be far more 	obvious to new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  CURRENT READERSHIP DATA         +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.         |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population         |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all         |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)         |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)         |     |     |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders         |     |     |      |    |      |    who read this group.         V     V     V      V    V      V    109 150000  1243   72%  5486   4.9    2.5%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone   172 14633+0  1041   70%  2935   2.6    2.1%  misc.forsale.computers.mac   194 120000   989   72%  2233   1.6    2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.other   331  99000   819   69%   967   0.7    1.6%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation   445  86000   717   69%   361   0.4    1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.d   PROPOSED CHARTERS     misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or 		buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: 		SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have 		or need.      misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most         commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but         also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and         cabling systems.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific is for articles to buy and sell         computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and 		software that is specific to the PC "clone" platform.  It is not 		for platform-independent equipment.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific is for articles to buy and sell         computer equipment (systems, components and/or peripherals) and 		software that is specific to the Macintosh platform.  It is not 		for platform-independent equipment.      misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to 		the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same 		and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell 		or buy computer equipment.  COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING     There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically 	outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  However, it is 	not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly 	what would constitute a commercial posting.  Further comments on this 	topic are welcome.  DISCUSSION AND VOTING     The discussion period will last at least a further 10 days from the     date in the header of this 2nd RFD.  All discussion should take place     in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,     and if necessary, a final, further revised RFD will be posted prior     to the end of the discussion period.      A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion     period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.      This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation     guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please     refer to this document if you have questions about the process. --  [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "where all men think alike, no one thinks very much"     -- walter lippman ]  From [email protected] Tue Aug 16 16:36:30 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale,misc.wanted Subject: 3rd RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Date: 15 Aug 1994 15:08:55 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 311 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5506 news.groups:112530 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:70734 misc.forsale.computers.other:32369 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12189 misc.forsale.computers.mac:36202 misc.forsale.computers.d:6531 misc.forsale:153591 misc.wanted:45492                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION                            on creating               misc.forsale.computers.communications                   misc.forsale.computers.memory                  misc.forsale.computers.monitors                  misc.forsale.computers.printers                  misc.forsale.computers.storage           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software            misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards             misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc          misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards             misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio          misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems              misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc               misc.forsale.computers.other.software               misc.forsale.computers.other.systems                 misc.forsale.computers.other.misc                            and removing                    misc.forsale.computers.mac                   misc.forsale.computers.other                  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone                            and renaming 	 misc.forsale.* HIERARCHY to misc.marketplace.*             misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer   misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion   INTRODUCTION     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,     with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups     for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those     participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to     create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a     result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the     misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;     *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand     the reasoning behind the proposals.  RATIONALE     1.  Non-computer group 	It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- 	forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety 	of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the 	group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining 	this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- 	related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.      2.  Platform-independent hardware 	While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look 	for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does 	not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that 	is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, 	laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are 	usable on a wide variety of equipment.  	Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone? 	But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? 	But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would 	be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target 	market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted 	to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.  	Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized 	cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware 	will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will 	also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as 	.workstation.  	Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage, 	.memory, .communications and .printers.      3.  PC hardware 	The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 	200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone 	be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for 	PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, 	monitors and hard disks.  	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the 	heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems, 	.software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that 	monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and 	.misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the 	hardware-independent groups.      4.  Macintosh hardware 	The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 	100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be 	renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for 	Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, 	monitors and hard disks.  	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the 	heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, .video- 	cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not 	belong in this group), .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors, 	modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.      5.  Workstation hardware 	It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to 	.unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs 	and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the 	traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.      6.  Discussion group 	Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to 	new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This 	will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that 	are currently posted to the .d group.      7.  Hierarchy rename 	In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, 	a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. 	However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename 	of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.      8.	Commercial posts 	As it is impossible to prevent commercial posts; as there is no 	overall agreement on whether commercial posts should be banned; and  	as it is not clear when commercial posts are "below market prices" 	(as per the FAQ), it is proposed that all commercial posts in the 	misc.forsale.* groups must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the 	Subject: line.  	A keyword flagging mechanism will allow most readers to eliminate 	commercial posts (using KILL files) if they so wish; it will enable 	others to find the commercial posts easily, if they prefer to deal 	with businesses only; and it is a relatively harmless addition for 	business' posts, posing little incentive to ignore this guideline.  CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)  	   +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. 	   |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population 	   |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all 	   |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) 	   |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) 	   |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders 	   |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group. 	   V     V     V      V    V    V         6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale       87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone      151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac      160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other      325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation     446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d      957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *    2056   7200   218  25%    128  0.0  0.4%  misc.forsale.wanted       * obsolete group      [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the      calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of      the current proposal.]  PROPOSED CHARTERS     [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]      misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.  Commercial postings must 	contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or 	buy memory (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: 	SIMMs, SIPPs, DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have 	or need.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: 	in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.communications (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.communications is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent communications equipment.  This is most         commonly asynchronous modems (v.32, v.32bis, v.34 and others), but         also synchronous modems, terminal servers and network hubs and         cabling systems.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword         COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.  Commercial postings must contain the keyword         COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  Commercial postings must 	contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible computer systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows-based software.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  Commercial postings must         contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- 	computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent 	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and 	.communications).  Commercial postings must contain the keyword 	COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell Macintosh-based software.  Commercial postings must contain         the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  Commercial         postings must contain the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- 	computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent 	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and 	.communications).  Commercial postings must contain the keyword 	COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.      misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to 	the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same 	and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell 	or buy computer equipment.      misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and 	all non-computer-related items.  Commercial postings must contain 	the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the Subject: line.  COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING     There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically     outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  However, it is     not clear to me how such a restriction should be worded, and exactly     what would constitute a commercial posting.  Further, it is not currently     possible to effectively enforce a ban on commercial posting, even if     such posts were clearly identifiable.      As a result, it is proposed that all commercial postings must include     the keyword COMMERCIAL: in the subject line.  This allows everyone to     use the groups as currently, and yet allows people to easily kill the     commercial posts if they so desire.  Further, it is neither an onerous     nor a incapacitating requirement for commerical posters, who should     thus hopefully be willing to co-operate with such a scheme.  DISCUSSION AND VOTING     The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the     date in the header of this 3rd RFD.  All discussion should take place     in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,     and if major changes are necessary, a final, 4th, RFD will be posted     prior to the voting.      A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion     period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.      This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation     guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please     refer to this document if you have questions about the process. --  [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "work for something because it is good, not simply because                 ] [  it has a chance to succeed."                              -- vaclav havel ]  From [email protected] Thu Sep  1 11:15:57 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Tom Haapanen) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: 4th RFD: misc.forsale.* reorganization, biz.marketplace.* Followup-To: news.groups Date: 1 Sep 1994 11:09:16 -0400 Organization: Software Metrics Inc. Lines: 368 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5579 news.groups:114695 biz.config:292 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:74439 misc.forsale.computers.other:33635 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:12729 misc.forsale.computers.mac:37943 misc.forsale.computers.d:6793 misc.forsale:156519                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION                            on creating                   misc.forsale.computers.modems              misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware                   misc.forsale.computers.memory                  misc.forsale.computers.monitors                  misc.forsale.computers.printers                  misc.forsale.computers.storage           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software            misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems           misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables          misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards             misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc          misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards             misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio           misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables          misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software            misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems              misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc               misc.forsale.computers.other.software               misc.forsale.computers.other.systems                 misc.forsale.computers.other.misc                            and removing 		       misc.forsale.wanted                    misc.forsale.computers.mac                   misc.forsale.computers.other                  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone                            and renaming             misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer   misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discuss  [ AND creating biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of   ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in the traditional CFV.   ]    INTRODUCTION     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,     with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups     for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those     participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to     create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a     result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the     misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;     *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand     the reasoning behind the proposals.  RATIONALE     1.  Non-computer group 	It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.- 	forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety 	of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the 	group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining 	this group for things other than computers, and direct computer- 	related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.      2.  Platform-independent hardware 	While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look 	for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does 	not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that 	is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems, 	laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are 	usable on a wide variety of equipment.  	Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone? 	But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other? 	But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would 	be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target 	market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted 	to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.  	Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized 	cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware 	will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will 	also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as 	.workstation.  	Thus, it is proposed to create misc.{forsale,marketplace}.storage, 	.memory, .modems, .network-hardware and .printers.  It was originally 	proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and 	.network-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.      3.  PC hardware 	The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of 	200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone 	be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for 	PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, 	monitors and hard disks.  	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the 	heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems, 	.software, .video-cards (not .video in order to make it clear that 	monitors do not belong in this group), .audio, .motherboards and 	.misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the 	hardware-independent groups.  	Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group 	name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am 	using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for 	the reasons outlined above.      4.  Macintosh hardware 	The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over 	100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be 	renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for 	Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers, 	monitors and hard disks.  	Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the 	heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software, .video- 	cards (not .video in order to make it clear that monitors do not 	belong in this group), .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors, 	modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.  	Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group 	name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am 	using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for 	the reasons outlined above.      5.  Workstation hardware 	It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to 	.unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs 	and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the 	traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.      6.  Discussion group 	Finally, the .discuss group name will be far more obvious to 	new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This 	will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that 	are currently posted to the .d group.      7.  Hierarchy rename 	In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles, 	a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale. 	However, [email protected] STRONGLY adviced against a rename 	of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.      9.	Wanted group 	It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in 	the specific newsgroups, and not in misc.forsale.wanted, which 	is barely used (only 2% of the traffic of the current .pc-clone 	group) and poorly propagated.  As a result, it is proposed that 	the current .wanted group be removed.      9.	Commercial posts 	There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the 	misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on 	whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is 	no way to enforce such a ban.  	As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new 	hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group 	hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This 	will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the 	buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller. 	It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all  	commercial postings.  	The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well proagated; most active 	groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat 	lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average -- and 	much better than misc.forsale.wanted's 25%.  An active marketplace 	hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.* propagation.  	The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond 	to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the 	format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding misc.- 	marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.   CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)  	   +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. 	   |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population 	   |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all 	   |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) 	   |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) 	   |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders 	   |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group. 	   V     V     V      V    V    V         6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale       87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone      151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac      160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other      325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.computers.workstation     446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d      957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *    2056   7200   218  25%    128  0.0  0.4%  misc.forsale.wanted       * obsolete group      [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the      calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of      the current proposal.]  PROPOSED CHARTERS     [Note that`all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]      misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory         (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,         DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy         hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,         v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.network-hardware is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category 	contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,         terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.   	No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.   	No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software. 	No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy         and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to         buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- 	computers.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent 	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and 	.communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.video-cards is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.- 	computers.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent 	misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and 	.communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and         sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations. 	No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and         sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes         and workstations.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell         other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale. computers.* 	subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.discuss (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discuss is for discussion relating to 	the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same 	and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell 	or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and 	all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.      The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the     corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last      sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for     all biz.marketplace.* groups.  COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING     There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically     outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the     proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is     proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale     groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of      business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still     be considered acceptable.      All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*     group.  DISCUSSION AND VOTING     The discussion period will last at least a further 7 days from the     date in the header of this 4th RFD.  All discussion should take place     in news.groups.  The groups in this proposal are subject to change,     and if major changes are necessary, a final, 5th, RFD will be posted     prior to the voting.      A CFV (Call for Votes) will be posted after the end of the discussion     period.  The vote will be run by a neutral third party.      This RFD attempts to fully comply with Usenet newsgroup creation     guidelines set in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup". Please     refer to this document if you have questions about the process.  --  [ /tom haapanen -- [email protected] -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ] [ "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"                      ]   From [email protected] Tue Oct  4 15:36:04 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization Followup-To: poster Date: 4 Oct 1994 14:36:45 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 464 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5735 news.groups:118935 biz.config:417 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:81937 misc.forsale.computers.other:36309 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:13976 misc.forsale.computers.mac:41685 misc.forsale.computers.d:7395 misc.forsale:162181                        FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                      misc.forsale.* reorganization  To CREATE the unmoderated groups:  misc.forsale.computers.modems misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc  and REMOVE: misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone                            and RENAME: misc.forsale             to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation  [ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of     ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV.  ]  Newsgroups lines:  misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.   Votes must be received by 29:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>.   INTRODUCTION     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,     with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups     for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those     participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to     create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a     result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the     misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;     *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand     the reasoning behind the proposals.  RATIONALE     1.  Non-computer group         It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-         forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety         of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the         group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining         this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-         related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.      2.  Platform-independent hardware         While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look         for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does         not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that         is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,         laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are         usable on a wide variety of equipment.          Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?         But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?         But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would         be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target         market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted         to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.          Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized         cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware         will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will         also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as         .workstation.          Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage,         .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers.  It was originally         proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and         .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.      3.  PC hardware         The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of         200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone         be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for         PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,         monitors and hard disks.          Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the         heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,         software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and          .misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the         hardware-independent groups.          Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group         name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am         using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for         the reasons outlined above.      4.  Macintosh hardware         The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over         100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be         renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for         Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,         monitors and hard disks.          Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the         heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software,          cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,         modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.          Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group         name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am         using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for         the reasons outlined above.      5.  Workstation hardware         It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to         .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs         and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the         traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.      6.  Discussion group         Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to         new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This         will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that         are currently posted to the .d group.      7.  Hierarchy rename         In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,         a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.         However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename         of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.          Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.*         groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.computers.*.  This,         however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not         included in this proposal.      8.  Wanted postings         It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in         the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup.      9.  Commercial posts         There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the         misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on         whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is         no way to enforce such a ban.          As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new         hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group         hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This         will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the         buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller.         It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all         commercial postings.          The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active         groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat         lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average.  An         active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.*          propagation.          The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond         to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the         format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.-         marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.   CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)             +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.            |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population            |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all            |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)            |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)            |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders            |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.            V     V     V      V    V    V       6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale      87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone     151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac     160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other     325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.workstation     446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d     957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *      * obsolete group      [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the      calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of      the current proposal.]  PROPOSED CHARTERS     [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]      misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory         (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,         DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy         hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,         v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category         contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,         terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy         and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to         buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to         buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and         sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and         sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes         and workstations.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell         other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*         subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to         the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same         and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell         or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and         all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.      The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the     corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last     sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for     all biz.marketplace.* groups.  COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING     There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically     outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the     proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is     proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale     groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of     business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still     be considered acceptable.      All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*     group.   HOW TO VOTE  Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these lines and do not change the group names.  Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Then mail the ballot to: [email protected]     Just Replying to this message should work.  -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- misc.forsale reorganization Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)  Give your real name here:  [Your Vote]  Group ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.modems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.memory [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.monitors [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.printers [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.storage [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.misc  [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.mac [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.other [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  [     ]  rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer [     ]  rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion [     ]  rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.  --Brennan T. Price, UVV   Running UseVote 3.0  From [email protected] Wed Oct 12 13:24:22 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: 2nd CFV: misc.forsale.* reorganization Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Date: 12 Oct 1994 12:43:15 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 472 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 26 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5773 news.groups:120321 biz.config:424 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:83893 misc.forsale.computers.other:37102 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14300 misc.forsale.computers.mac:42604 misc.forsale.computers.d:7595 misc.forsale:163674                        LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                      misc.forsale.* reorganization  To CREATE the unmoderated groups:  misc.forsale.computers.modems misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware misc.forsale.computers.memory misc.forsale.computers.monitors misc.forsale.computers.printers misc.forsale.computers.storage misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc misc.forsale.computers.other.software misc.forsale.computers.other.systems misc.forsale.computers.other.misc  and REMOVE: misc.forsale.computers.mac misc.forsale.computers.other misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone                            and RENAME: misc.forsale             to misc.forsale.non-computer misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation  [ AND create biz.marketplace.* groups corresponding to to each of     ] [ the proposed misc.forsale newsgroups, for commercial postings only. ] [ The biz.marketplace.* proposal is outside the scope of the usual    ] [ Guidelines, and thus will not be voted on in this traditional CFV.  ]  Newsgroups lines:  misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.   Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>.   INTRODUCTION     The misc.forsale.computers is one of the busiest hierarchies on Usenet,     with over 20,000 articles posted each month in its various subgroups.     Its usefulness is further limited by excessive crossposting and the     difficulty of determining the correct groups for many items.      While it was initially proposed to create only a handful of new groups     for platform-independent hardware, the general consensus among those     participating in the discussions has been to use this opportunity to     create a logical organization for the present and the future.  As a     result, this RFD proposes a comprehensive reorganization of all the     misc.forsale.computers.* groups with only a few remaining untouched;     *PLEASE* take the time to read through the rationale below to understand     the reasoning behind the proposals.  RATIONALE     1.  Non-computer group         It is proposed that the group misc.forsale be renamed to misc.-         forsale.non-computer as it is currently inundated with a variety         of postings about computer equipment, making up 30-40% of the         group's traffic.  A clear name will hopefully assist in retaining         this group for things other than computers, and direct computer-         related traffic to the appropriate subgroups in that subhierarchy.      2.  Platform-independent hardware         While the current division makes it clear where to sell or to look         for a Sun workstation, or a 386-based PC, or a Macintosh, it does         not take into account the increasingly large amount of hardware that         is standardized across platforms.  SCSI disks, tape drives, modems,         laser, inkjet and dot matrix printers and multiscan monitors are         usable on a wide variety of equipment.          Where does one advertise a multiscan monitor today?  In .pc-clone?         But it's not a clone in itself, so maybe it should go into .other?         But if it's a 17" monitor, maybe the folks in .workstation would         be more interested...  They might also appear as the right target         market for a 1 GB SCSI drive -- but maybe it should be crossposted         to *all* the groups since everyone can use SCSI drives.          Clearly there is no well-defined place for selling standardized         cross-platform peripherals.  Providing a place for this hardware         will not only make it easier to buy and sell such equipment, it will         also reduce the amount of cross-posting into groups such as         .workstation.          Thus, it is proposed to create misc.forsale.storage,         .memory, .modems, .net-hardware and .printers.  It was originally         proposed to create .communications, but this was split to .modems and         .net-hardware after numerous comments in news.groups.      3.  PC hardware         The .pc-clone group is currently experiencing traffic in excess of         200 articles on most days.  First, it is proposed that the .pc-clone         be renamed to .pc-specific to make it clear that it is intended for         PC-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,         monitors and hard disks.          Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the         heavy traffic in the PC group.  These groups include .systems,         software, .cards.video, .cards.misc, .audio, .motherboards and          .misc.  Memory, monitors, modems and disks are to be posted in the         hardware-independent groups.          Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group         name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am         using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for         the reasons outlined above.      4.  Macintosh hardware         The .mac group is also experiencing very heavy traffic, usually over         100 articles per day.  First, it is proposed that the .mac be         renamed to .mac-specific to make it clear that it is intended for         Mac-specific hardware only, and not for items such as printers,         monitors and hard disks.          Second, it is proposed to create several subgroups to handle the         heavy traffic.  These groups include .systems, .software,          cards.video, cards.misc, .portables and .misc.  Memory, monitors,         modems and disks are to be posted in the hardware-independent groups.          Several people are opposed to the -specific suffic due to the group         name length; however, the opinions are quite evenly split, so I am         using my best judgement and staying with the -specific suffix for         the reasons outlined above.      5.  Workstation hardware         It is proposed that the .workstation group not be renamed to         .unix-only, since workstations may or may not run Unix, and both PCs         and Macintoshes are also capable of running Unix.  Further, the         traffic is not currently high enough to warrant a split.      6.  Discussion group         Finally, the .discussion group name will be far more obvious to         new users of Usenet than the traditional .d currently used.  This         will hopefully reduce the large number of "for sale" articles that         are currently posted to the .d group.      7.  Hierarchy rename         In order to reflect the groups' content of both buy and sell articles,         a hierarchy name of .marketplace would be preferable to .forsale.         However, [email protected] STRONGLY advised against a rename         of the hierarchy at this point, so it is not proposed at this time.          Many people also requested to rename all the misc.forsale.computers.*         groups to the somewhat shorter misc.forsale.comp.*.  This,         however, was also strongly opposed by group-advice, so it is not         included in this proposal.      8.  Wanted postings         It is proposed that all "wanted" or "buy" postings be posted in         the specific newsgroups, and not in a separate newsgroup.      9.  Commercial posts         There is considerable opposition to commercial postings in the         misc.forsale groups; however, there is no overall agreement on         whether commercial posts should be totally banned; and there is         no way to enforce such a ban.          As a method of resolving this, it is proposed to create a new         hierarchy, biz.marketplace.*, to mirror the misc.forsale.* group         hierarchy, intended for exclusively commercial postings.  This         will provide a clear place for such posts, while allowing the         buyers to easily select a commercial or non-commercial seller.         It will also allow sites so inclined to easily decline all         commercial postings.          The biz.* hierarchy is generally fairly well propagated; most active         groups have a propagation of around 55% of Usenet, only somewhat         lower than misc.forsale.* groups' current 70% average.  An         active marketplace hierarchy will also help to improve the biz.*          propagation.          The set of biz.marketplace.* groups to be created will correspond         to the results of the misc.forsale.* vote; each group of the         format misc.forsale.x{.y{.z}} will have a corresponding biz.-         marketplace.x{.y{.z}} group for commercial postings.   CURRENT READERSHIP DATA (July 1994)             +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.            |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population            |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all            |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)            |     |     |      |    +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month)            |     |     |      |    |    +-- Share: % of newsrders            |     |     |      |    |    |    who read this group.            V     V     V      V    V    V       6 290000  2757  81%   5385  5.0  5.6%  misc.forsale      87 110000  1194  72%   6163  5.6  2.4%  misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone     151  90000   966  71%   2989  2.5  2.0%  misc.forsale.computers.mac     160  88000   928  72%   2370  1.9  1.9%  misc.forsale.computers.other     325  65000   707  70%    863  0.7  1.4%  misc.forsale.workstation     446  55000   603  69%    433  0.5  1.2%  misc.forsale.computers.d     957  4633+0   509  45%    575  0.6  1.0%  misc.forsale.computers *      * obsolete group      [Note that the total readership estimates appear inaccurate due to the      calculation method used; however, this does not affect the rationale of      the current proposal.]  PROPOSED CHARTERS     [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]      misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory         (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,         DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy         hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,         v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category         contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,         terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy         and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to         buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to         buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and         sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and         sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes         and workstations.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell         other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*         subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to         the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same         and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell         or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and         all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.      The charter of each proposed biz.marketplace.* group would match the     corresponding misc.forsale.* group, with the exception of the last     sentence, which would be changed to "Commercial postings only" for     all biz.marketplace.* groups.  COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING     There have been several requests during this discussion to specifically     outlaw commercial postings in the new groups' charters.  With the     proposal to create a mirroring biz.marketplace.* hierarchy, it is     proposed that no commercial posting be permitted in misc.forsale     groups -- "commercial" meaning sales in the ordinary course of     business.  Disposal of used and surplus equipment etc. would still     be considered acceptable.      All commercial posts should be made in the appropriate biz.marketplace.*     group.   HOW TO VOTE  VOTETAKER'S NOTE:  The vote counting software was incorrectly configured with a spelling error in in one of the group names, misc.forsale. computers.mac-specific.portables.  This spelling error is reflected in the ballot below.  All votes on "protables" have been counted and will be counted toward the "portables" vote.  Please keep this in mind  when filling out your ballot, and do not alter the ballot to indicate the correct spelling.  Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these lines and do not change the group names.  Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Then mail the ballot to: [email protected]     Just Replying to this message should work.  -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- misc.forsale reorganization Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)  Give your real name here:  [Your Vote]  Group ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.modems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.memory [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.monitors [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.printers [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.storage [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.protables [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.software [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.systems [     ]  misc.forsale.computers.other.misc  [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.mac [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.other [     ]  remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  [     ]  rename misc.forsale to misc.forsale.non-computer [     ]  rename misc.forsale.computers.d to misc.forsale.computers.discussion [     ]  rename misc.forsale.workstation to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.  --Brennan T. Price, UVV   Running UseVote 3.0  From [email protected] Wed Oct 26 23:44:54 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Brennan T. Price) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,biz.config,misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone,misc.forsale.computers.other,misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.mac,misc.forsale.computers.d,misc.forsale Subject: RESULT: misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Date: 26 Oct 1994 23:12:05 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 564 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5847 news.groups:121732 biz.config:440 misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone:87504 misc.forsale.computers.other:38359 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:14813 misc.forsale.computers.mac:44396 misc.forsale.computers.d:7858 misc.forsale:166243                                  RESULT             misc.forsale.* reorganization all proposals pass  misc.forsale reorganization results - 268 valid votes   Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group ---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------  225   37 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.modems  209   42 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware  223   39 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.memory  217   41 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.monitors  217   40 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.printers  220   41 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.storage  196   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software  196   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems  179   65 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables  186   58 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  181   63 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video  197   49 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc  189   56 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards  182   62 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio  182   64 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables  187   60 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc  180   67 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  197   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software  192   56 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems  197   54 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc  200   51 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.software  196   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.systems  197   52 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.forsale.computers.other.misc  209   50 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.mac  212   48 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.other  211   48 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone  216   47 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale to            :            :       : misc.forsale.non-computer  209   53 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale.computers.d to            :            :       : misc.forsale.computers.discussion  225   34 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rename misc.forsale.workstation to            :            :       : misc.forsale.computers.workstation   19 invalid votes  Newsgroups lines:  misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips and modules for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM and tape drives for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards. misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems. misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment. misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems. misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment. misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted. misc.forsale.computers.discussion       Discussions only about items for sale. misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstations for sale and wanted.   Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Oct 1994.  This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the proposed groups contact Tom Haapanen <[email protected]>.   CHARTERS     [Note that all groups permit buying *AND* selling of equipment.]      misc.forsale.computers.storage (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.storage is primarily for articles to sell         or buy hardware-independent storage devices.  Typically this is         SCSI equipment (of various flavours): hard disks, tape drives, DAT         drives, CD-ROMs, optical disks, removable hard disks and others.         Less hardware-independent equipment (such as IDE hard disks or QIC         tape drives) would also be acceptable.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.memory (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.memory is for articles to sell or buy memory         (RAM, ROM and flash memory) in all the myriad forms: SIMMs, SIPPs,         DIPs, 8-bit and 9-bit, and anything anyone might have or need.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.modems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.modems is for articles to sell or buy         hardware-independent modems, most commonly asynchronous (v.32,         v.32bis, v.34 and others), but also synchronous models.  No         commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware is for articles to sell or         buy hardware-independent networking equipment.  This category         contains, but is not limited to, routers, hubs, concentrators,         terminal servers and cabling systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.monitors (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.monitors is for articles to sell or buy         computer monitors.  Most commonly this would be hardware-inde-         pendent multiscan monitors, but possibly also LCD or eleectro-         luminescent ddisplay panels, projection displays or fixed-         frequency monitors.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.printers (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.printers is for articles to buy and sell         hardcopy output devices of all types, including laser printers,         LED printers, inkjet printers, dot matrix printers, thermal         printers, line printers and pen plotters.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible desktop and/or tower computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell complete PC-compatible laptop and notebook computer systems.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows and other PC-specific software.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video is for articles to buy         and sell video display cards for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         PC-compatible systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio is for articles to buy         and sell audio equipment for PC-compatible systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards is for articles to         buy and sell PC-compatible motherboards.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell PC-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.pc-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems is for articles to buy         and sell complete Macintosh desktop and server systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables is for articles to buy         and sell portable Macintosh (e.g. PowerBook) systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software is for articles to buy         and sell Macintosh-based software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video is for articles to         buy and sell video display cards for Macintosh systems.  No commercial         postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc is for articles to         buy and sell adapter cards (other than video display cards) for         Macintosh systems.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc is for articles to buy and         sell Macintosh-specific equipment not covered by other misc.forsale.-         comp.mac-specific subgroups, or by the hardware-independent         misc.forsale.computers subgroups (.storage, .monitors, .memory and         .communications).  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.systems (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.systems is for articles to buy and         sell systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes and workstations.         No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.software (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.software is for articles to buy and         sell software for systems other than PC-compatibles, Macintoshes         and workstations.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.other.misc (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.other.misc is for articles to buy and sell         other equipment not covered by the misc.forsale.computers.*         subgroups, other than systems and software.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.computers.discussion (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.computers.discussion is for discussion relating to         the .forsale.computer groups, to items for sale in the same         and any other .forsale-related articles that do not offer to sell         or buy computer equipment.  No commercial postings.      misc.forsale.non-computer (unmoderated)         misc.forsale.non-computer is for articles to buy and sell any and         all non-computer-related items.  No commercial postings.   misc.forsale reorganization Final Vote Ack    rename to misc.forsale.computers.workstation -------------------------------+   rename to misc.forsale.computers.discussion ------------------------------+|           rename to misc.forsale.non-computer -----------------------------+||        remove misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone ----------------------------+|||           remove misc.forsale.computers.other ---------------------------+||||             remove misc.forsale.computers.mac --------------------------+|||||             misc.forsale.computers.other.misc -------------------------+||||||          misc.forsale.computers.other.systems ------------------------+|||||||         misc.forsale.computers.other.software -----------------------+||||||||       misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc ----------------------+|||||||||    misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems ---------------------+||||||||||   misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software --------------------+||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video ------------------+|||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc ------------------+|||||||||||||  misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables -----------------+||||||||||||||      misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio ----------------+||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards -------------+||||||||||||||||      misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc --------------+||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video -----------+|||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc -----------+||||||||||||||||||| misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables -----------+||||||||||||||||||||   misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems ----------+|||||||||||||||||||||  misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software ---------+||||||||||||||||||||||                misc.forsale.computers.storage --------+|||||||||||||||||||||||               misc.forsale.computers.printers -------+||||||||||||||||||||||||               misc.forsale.computers.monitors ------+|||||||||||||||||||||||||                 misc.forsale.computers.memory -----+||||||||||||||||||||||||||           misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware ----+|||||||||||||||||||||||||||                 misc.forsale.computers.modems ---+||||||||||||||||||||||||||||                                                  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 34II5MT%[email protected]    John D YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                   Sean Carmody YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Andrew Henry Y-YYYY------YYY-Y-YY---YYYYYY [email protected]           Bill Mackela YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Scott Salzman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Arthur B. Byrn YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]               Avram Cheaney YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Alison Colm YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Albert Crosby YYYYYYYYNYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                       Steve Adams YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AFECU%[email protected]    Aron Ei YYYYYY------NNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]         Colin R. Leech YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Seyed A Alavizadeh YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 G. Alexander Flett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                                 NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNYNY [email protected]             Alexey B.Bulychev --------------------------YYY [email protected]                  Eric C. Anderson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                   Andy Latto YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Ayn Shipley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Adam Tilghman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]     Ehvo Tewallaikmada Jarhai YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                      Jim Ault YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Ed Bailey YYYYYYYYNNNYYYNNNYYYNNNYNYNYY [email protected]                      David Barr YYYYYYYYNYYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                       Bill Baker YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 Bram Cohen YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Peter Bierman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]     William C Waggoner YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Bill von Hagen NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYY [email protected]             Dan Birchall YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                    B.J Herbison YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Ronald W. Blaschke YYY--Y------YY----YY------YYY [email protected]    Richard Ingraham Blu NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                    Bob Palmer NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]         Brant Pellett YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]                Brad Andrews YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Leo Bresler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Andrew K. Bressen YYYNYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY---YYY [email protected]        Thomas J. Bunce YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 Buz Cory YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    William Ward [CONTRACTO YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Craig Bair NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]    Clinton Chambe YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Eric C. Carlson YYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNNYY [email protected]         Carl Aude YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Mark Kupferman NNNNNNYYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNYYNYY [email protected]    Robert W.  YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Charles Oliphant YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Charles Herrick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNNNNY [email protected]       Chris Koenigsberg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Ernest Cline YYYYYYYY--NY---Y-YYY---YYYYYY [email protected]             Clive Jones --------------------------NNY [email protected]            Jeffrey C. Miller NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]                      Mark Crafts YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY [email protected]    Matthew Cros YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]      K.P Crouch NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]              Wes Hodges YYYYYYYYYYYNYYYYYYYNYYYYNYYYY [email protected]             Charles T. Smith, Jr. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNYY [email protected]                     Peter Campbell YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                          Dale Quigg YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Richard F. Daley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                                     YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY [email protected]         David Reynolds NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]      David Brazendale YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       David W. Richardson YYYYYYYYYYYY---Y-Y-YYYY---YNY [email protected]                    Seth de Lackner YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         David Dyer-Bennet YNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Dave DeBry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Dee-Ann LeBlanc YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                David Filippi NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]             David Mosher YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]           Don Jackson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Mark dranoff NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]      Harold A. Driscoll YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Dwight A. Schwar YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             David Medin YYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 John Dull NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNN [email protected]                   Dave Wiseman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Thomas Andrew Eason YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Eric W. Burger YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Eddy Black YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Edwin F. Nesman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                     Derek Fu YYYYYYYYNNNYYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                    Eiji Hirai YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Robert Smits NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]              Eric Edwards YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYNYYYY [email protected]                     Emery Lapinski YYNYYNY-NYNYNNNYNYNYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]                         Samu Mielonen YYYYYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                      Garth Fisher YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]               Florence K. Wood YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected]                       Floyd Miller YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]     Fred Monsour YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]     fred ungewitter YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Sean P. Ryan YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYNN [email protected]                     Brian Beuning YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Gregory G. Woodbury YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYYN [email protected]                Geoffrey H Spear NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNY [email protected]        GillesBronchti YYYY-Y------Y-Y--YY----YYYYN- [email protected]          Greg Kuperberg NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]                    Glen Hoag YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Bill Godfrey YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYY--YYYYYY [email protected]    Dan Goldwate YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Chris Tubutis YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YYYYYY [email protected]      Hank Stephenson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Robert A. Hay YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 Oliver Hellwig YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         Zhi Ren Xu YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Cris J. Holdorph YNYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNNNYY [email protected]          Helen Trillian Rose YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Harold Smoliar NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                Roger H}kansson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Tsung-Hsiang Hsueh YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Howard Troughton YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                          Ian Darwin NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYN [email protected]                 Josh Smith YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Jim Hilsheimer YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Steven A Janow YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYN [email protected]         James Chokey YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]      J. D. Almand YYYYYYYYNNNYNNNNNYYYYYYNNNYYY [email protected]                James DeMuth YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          John F. Bailey, Jr. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]      Jeff Goslin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                John Gotts YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                           John Harkin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                    Jon Lewis NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]                    Jason Morris Y-Y--YYYYYYY-----------YYY--- [email protected]            Jon Moritz NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNYYY [email protected]             Jeremy M Posner YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected]       John R. MacWilliamson NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYNNN [email protected]                      John Bazik YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         Joshua Kreitzer NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]               David Judd Y-YYYY------Y-YYYYYYY-NNNNYYY [email protected]                   Jon Wright YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                       Ken Olum YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Keith Rowland YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Ken Spong as [email protected] YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Ken de Veaux NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY--- [email protected]         Kerrin J Pine YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         Kenneth R Hathaway YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]        Daniel A. King YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Henry King YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Kjetil T. Homme YYYYYY---NN----NN---YYYYYYNYY [email protected]               Kevin J. Sinclair YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Keith Rettig Y-YYYYYYYYYY----------YY--NY- [email protected]                    Lewis Butler YYYYYYYYNYNYYYNYNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Kenneth Simon YYYYYYYYYYYY--------YYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Martin Schr"oder YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 Lee Hines YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Larry Rosenman YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Leonard Kamlet NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN--- [email protected]                Mark Linimon YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Lynne Seamans YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Lutz Donnerhacke YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                        Ed Casey YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Mark Foster YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Mark C. Alfero NNYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNNNNNYNNYNY [email protected]             Marc Moorcroft NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]               Mark Moraes YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                    Mark B. Bundick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                       Mark Orton YYYYYYYYY--YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]             Perry Martin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNY [email protected]                 max ahlgren YYYYYYYYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected]           Michael Bauser YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Matt Thul YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Leo Mekenkamp YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         Mark Polhamus YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Michael Bryan YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Micky Oakley NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                Micke Hovm\vller YYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Michael De La Rue YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           milan podhorsky Y-NYYY-----------------YYYYYY [email protected]           JASON E. MINTON YYYYYYNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYNYYY [email protected]                   M Mike Taksar YYYY-Y-Y-NNY-----------YYYYNY [email protected]              Michael Sattler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Matthew T. Kinney Y-YYYY------YYYYYYYY---YYYYYY [email protected]             Bill Muller YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Joseph Murray YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Michael Visconti YYYYYYYYNYNYYNNYNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Randolph Finder YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Neil Willet YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Talbott Nelson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                   Nick Waterman YYYYYY--N-----------YYYYYYYNY [email protected]                 Neal Patrick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                     phil reed YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]              Paul Duckenfield NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                 PETER WIEBE BURKA YYYYYYYYNYYYYNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Peter D. G YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Paul Donahue Y-YNYNYYYYYY--------YYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 J.C.A. Peper YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Pierre Uszynski YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]           Pete Boulay YYYYYNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNYYYYY [email protected]      Timothy R Prodin YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Phil Sumida YYYYYYYYNNNYYYNYNYYYYYYYYYNYY [email protected]                 W. Paul Zola YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Rebecca Drayer NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]             Ramanathan Raman YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYY-YYNYY [email protected]            Randy Michelson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Rex M. Craig Y-YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                          Corp Reed YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                      Ryan Waldron YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]                Richard Tanner NNNNNYNNNNNYNNNNNNNYNNYNNYYYY [email protected]      Richard Aubry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    rj.kulman ([email protected] ----------------NNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                Rohan Khaleel NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]        Robert Gillis YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Jim Robertson YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Roderick Schertler YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Ronald Jones YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Michael Rothstein YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                 rpwhite YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]       Richard Ross-Langley YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNYNYYY [email protected]                  J. Rufinus YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]           Russ Smith YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY------ [email protected]                  rodrigo vanegas YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                        Mike Mills NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]                      Steve Fenwick YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                        Stanley Chow YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]         Scott Philben YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    H.A.R.V. Wijes YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY [email protected]                       Sharon Vogt Y-Y---YYYYYY-----------YYYY-N [email protected]                  Allen Shoemaker YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Lynda L. True NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]         Simon Lyall YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                     Stan Koper NNNNNN------NNNNNNNNNNNNNNYN- [email protected]                    Sara Langseth YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]          Sten M Drescher YYYYYYNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Kevin Ruddy YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Dick Smith YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                        Sam Kamens YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Brian Sommers NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]                    Dwight Brown NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]       Sarah Skovronsky YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Steve Terry YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Steve Wech YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                     Brian Stoler YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                    Steve Davis YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNN [email protected]            Stu Labovitz YNYNNYYYNYNYYNNYNYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]         Bjorn Svartengren YYYYYY------YNYYNYNYNNN-NYYYY [email protected]     steve white ------YYYYYY-----------YYYYYY [email protected]                 Scott Morris YYYYNYNYNNNYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYNY [email protected]                           Thomas Cuny YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNYY [email protected]            Terry Raymond YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                         Thomas Lee YYNNNNYYYYYYYNNNNNNNYYYYNNNYY [email protected]      Tom Guptill YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY [email protected]                    Tim Hogard YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYNYYYY [email protected]          Thomas Gasser YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]            Thomas R. Kimpton YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Tom Staniszewski YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYNNNNYN [email protected]                    Tom Haapanen YYYYYYYYYYYY--YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]               tom satter YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]             Stanley Trimble Y-YYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                  Tony Servies YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY U20190%[email protected]    Carlo S Y---Y------------Y-YYYY------ [email protected]               David Zatz YYYYYYYYYY-Y-----------YYYYYY [email protected]                   David Poling YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]               Cranston Snord YYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]       Jacob Kirsch NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]          Wally Garchow YYYYYYYNNNNNNNNNNYNNYNNNNNYYY [email protected]            Bill Bradley YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNNNN [email protected]            Billy Harris --Y--YYYYNNY-YYNNYYYYYYNN-YN- [email protected]          Stuart Whitmore YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                Mikko Hanninen YYYYYY------YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]                     Jeff Wolfe YYYYYYYYNNNYNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Craig Wylli YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY [email protected]    Dave Sha YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNNNYYY [email protected]                   Oceager Yee NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [email protected]               Yuval Kfir -----------Y-------YY--YYYYNY [email protected]              THE HOBBIT YYYYYYYY----YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYNY   Votes in error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                           Alan Peterman    ! 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