From [email protected] Tue Dec 14 14:23:14 1993
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Urban Fredriksson)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad
Subject: RFD: rec.railroad reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 13 Dec 1993 14:58:00 -0500
Organization: None. I speak only for myself.
Lines: 51
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4398 news.groups:90051 rec.railroad:33777 rec.models.railroad:7354

PROPOSAL:

Split of rec.railroad into rec.railroad.misc     unmoderated
                           rec.railroad.america  unmoderated
                           rec.railroad.europe   unmoderated

RATIONALE:

These newsgroups would make it easier for readers to separate
articles by areas of interest.

The new groups are to remain under the rec.railroad hierarchy
to let anyone follow them, regardless of where they are. This
is necessary, as it is not the case that people are only 
interested in things closer to home. Many are even interested
mainly in things that are different from where they live.

It is true that people will mostly post information about things
they know best, but the creation of aus.rail made it clear that
there are many in other parts of the world who are interested
in postings about Australian practices.

Model railroading will still be discussed in rec.models.railroad.

CHARTERS:

rec.railroad.europe

Discussions on all aspects of European railroading, except
for model railroading.

rec.railroad.america

Discussions on all aspects of American railroading, except
for model railroading.

rec.railroad.misc

Discussions on all aspects of railroading outside Europe
and America, or where the geographical area is indeterminate.
Model railroading is excepted.

DISCUSSION:

To be held in news.groups, to which all followups should be directed.

VOTING:

Votes will be collected by a neutral party.
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson  [email protected] 

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Sat Jan 22 17:59:55 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad
Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.railroad reorganization
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: poster
Date: 22 Jan 1994 17:15:30 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 74
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 4 Feb 1994 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <[email protected]> 
Reply-To: [email protected] (Ron Dippold Voting Alias)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4507 news.groups:92736 rec.railroad:35800 rec.models.railroad:8197

		      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
	       unmoderated group rec.railroad.americas
		unmoderated group rec.railroad.europe
     unmoderated group rec.railroad.misc (replaces rec.railroad)


Newsgroups lines:
rec.railroad.americas	Discussions about railroading in the Americas.
rec.railroad.europe	Discussions about railroading in Europe.
rec.railroad.misc	General railroading discussions.


Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 3 February 1994. 

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected].  For questions about the
proposed group contact Urban Fredriksson .


CHARTERS

rec.railroad.americas
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading in North and South
  America, except for model railroading. Unmoderated.

rec.railroad.europe
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading in Europe, except model
  railroading. Unmoderated.

rec.railroad.misc
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading outside Europe and the
  Americas, or where the geographical area is indeterminate, except
  model railroading. Unmoderated.

  This group would replace rec.railroad, which would be removed after
  three months time in order to allow time for discussion to move.


HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.

For each group, place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote
for or against it.  If you don't want to vote on a particular group,
just leave the space blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the columns
or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.

Then mail the ballot to:  [email protected]
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the address.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.railroad split Ballot     (Don't delete this marker)

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  rec.railroad.americas
[         ]  rec.railroad.europe
[         ]  rec.railroad.misc (replacing rec.railroad)
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

Only one vote per person and per account will be counted.  Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.

rec.railroad split Bounce Ack List - no need to revote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]
[email protected]

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Tue Feb  8 11:43:36 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad
Subject: RESULT: rec.railroad reorganization fails
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 7 Feb 1994 15:49:52 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 285
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: 
References: <[email protected]>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4593 news.groups:94662 rec.railroad:36719 rec.models.railroad:8609

                               RESULTS

rec.railroad split results - 225 valid votes
 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
  92  127 :   No    No :    No : rec.railroad.americas
  92  127 :   No    No :    No : rec.railroad.europe
  92  126 :   No    No :    No : rec.railroad.misc
   4 invalid votes

Therefore, six months must pass before these groups can be voted on again.

Newsgroups lines:
rec.railroad.americas	Discussions about railroading in the Americas.
rec.railroad.europe	Discussions about railroading in Europe.
rec.railroad.misc	General railroading discussions.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected].  For questions about the
proposed group contact Urban Fredriksson .


CHARTERS

rec.railroad.americas
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading in North and South
  America, except for model railroading. Unmoderated.

rec.railroad.europe
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading in Europe, except model
  railroading. Unmoderated.

rec.railroad.misc
  Discussions on all aspects of railroading outside Europe and the
  Americas, or where the geographical area is indeterminate, except
  model railroading. Unmoderated.

  This group would replace rec.railroad, which would be removed after
  three months time in order to allow time for discussion to move.


rec.railroad split Final Vote Ack


                                                      rec.railroad.misc -----+
                                                    rec.railroad.europe ----+|
                                                  rec.railroad.americas ---+||
                                                                           |||
[email protected]                                              YYY
[email protected]                                         NNN
[email protected]              Andrew Smith - Computing Services {PR} YYY
[email protected]                                                   NNN
[email protected]                                 Duncan MacGregor NNN
[email protected]                                            Aaron Priven NNN
[email protected]                                    David Stremes YYY
[email protected]                                      Aron Eisenpress NNN
[email protected]                                        John Kane NNN
[email protected]                                     Peter Ahlstrom YYY
[email protected]                                                Al Stavely NNN
[email protected]                                      Allen Rueter NNN
[email protected]                              Brian Greg Bukowski YYY
[email protected]                                       A R Hook YYY
[email protected]                                       Andrew R Shulman YNY
[email protected]                                             YYY
[email protected]                                          Ardie Mack NNN
[email protected]                                          Bill Hoffman NNN
[email protected]                                     Allen L. Spruill YYY
[email protected]                                                     Jim Ault YYY
[email protected]                                             Brian Huck YYY
[email protected]                                    Michael D. Setty YYY
[email protected]                                                       Bob Coe NNN
[email protected]                                             Roland Bol YYY
[email protected]                              Joseph Brennan NNN
[email protected]                          Karl Brodowsky YYY
[email protected]                                   David Bromage NNN
[email protected]                                 Bruce Burden NNN
[email protected]                                       Bruce Jones YYY
[email protected]                             Edward A. Kamposek NNN
[email protected]                                         Brett Testerman YYY
[email protected]                                   Thomas J Bunce YYY
[email protected]                                                     NNN
[email protected]                                 Bob Cannon NNN
[email protected]                                              CCHB000 NNN
[email protected]                                        Tim Christensen YYY
[email protected]                            Christian L Claiborn NNN
[email protected]                                           Clive D.W. Feather NNN
[email protected]                                       Martin Coburn YYY
[email protected]                             Bill Larduskey NNN
[email protected]                                         Dick Lord NNN
[email protected]                                              Tom Box NNN
[email protected]                                                   YYY
[email protected]                                                        NNN
[email protected]                                       Steen Thomassen YYY
[email protected]                                    Dan Morisseau YYY
[email protected]                               Douglas A Rohn NNN
[email protected]                                              Dave Searle YYY
[email protected]                                      Dave Nelson YYY
[email protected]                                                          NNN
[email protected]                                          Delbert Big NNN
[email protected]                                                   NNN
[email protected]                                      Derek Oldfather YYY
[email protected]                                                     NNN
[email protected]                                             Jim Dickson NNN
[email protected]                                          David Murphy YYY
[email protected]                                                     YYY
[email protected]                               Donna Whitlinger NNN
[email protected]                                    Russell Downing NNN
[email protected]                                           David Pitts NNN
[email protected]                                 Rebecca Drayer YYY
[email protected]                                  John J. Dura YYY
[email protected]                                      Evan Richards YYY
[email protected]                                       Erik Evrard YYY
[email protected]                                              Ernest H. Robl NNN
[email protected]                                     Edward Anderson x9105 Y--
[email protected]                         Edward J. Branley YYY
[email protected]                                       Hr. Dr. Erben-Russ - A5 YYY
[email protected]                                                NNN
[email protected]                             Massimo Macucci NNN
[email protected]                                                        YYY
[email protected]                              Sean P. Ryan NNN
[email protected]                                                             YYY
[email protected]                                                    NNN
[email protected]                                         Greg Gadeholt NNN
[email protected]                                     G. "Wolfe" Woodbury YYY
[email protected]                                            Gregory Scott NNN
[email protected]                                       Georges KO Y--
[email protected]                                         Gerald Munz YYY
[email protected]                                          Gordon Matheson NNN
[email protected]                                   Graham Murray -Y-
[email protected]                                    Mark Greaves NNN
[email protected]                                                       NNN
[email protected]                                         Guy Burnham NNN
[email protected]                                                       YYY
heller%[email protected]                                                   NNN
[email protected]                     Mark A. Hilmantel NNN
[email protected]                                              R.F.HOBBS NNY
[email protected]                                Gaylord Holder NNN
[email protected]                                            Ian Phillipps YYY
[email protected]                                       william spollen YYY
[email protected]                                    Jeremy Double NNN
[email protected]                                          Eric Jacobsen NYN
[email protected]                            Jeff Aley - MD57 DFT/DFM NNN
[email protected]                                             Mark James NNN
[email protected]                                              Jim Tantillo NNN
[email protected]                                                          NNN
[email protected]                                  Jesse J. Steinfort YYY
[email protected]                                                John Harkin NNN
[email protected]                                             John Hawkinson NNN
[email protected]                                            Joel Furr YN-
[email protected]                                           Jeff Hernes NNN
[email protected]                                                Jeff Holcomb YYY
[email protected]                                   John McLachlan NNN
[email protected]                                                 b.j. mora Y-Y
[email protected]                                        Joe.Russ NNN
[email protected]                                        Joseph Shaw NYN
[email protected]                                                 YYY
[email protected]                      Johannes Beekhuizen YYY
[email protected]                                  Johannes Stille YNN
[email protected]                         John D. Balogh, +1 814 863 1252 NNN
[email protected]                              John E. Kabat Jr. NNN
[email protected]                               Joe Johnston NNN
[email protected]                                      Jerry Ozaniec YYY
[email protected]                                                               NNN
[email protected]                                 John R. MacWilliamson NNN
[email protected]                                             Jon Bell NNN
[email protected]                                      Mark Judd 73734 YYY
[email protected]                                    Keith Balderson -Y-
[email protected]                                            Frank Kastenholz NNN
[email protected]                                      Rob Knauerhase NNN
[email protected]                                John Kolassa NNN
[email protected]                                           Ken Koontz NNN
[email protected]                                    Martin Schroeder YYY
[email protected]                                           Larry Rupp NNN
LESHT%[email protected]                                       NNN
[email protected]                                   Nick Leverton NNN
[email protected]                                   Lance Gleich YYN
[email protected]                             Lonadar the Wanderer YYY
Loyd=Enochs%ISSPG%[email protected]                                           NNN
[email protected]                                   Manfred Hanley YYY
[email protected]                           Marco van Uden YYY
[email protected]                                    Mark Cockburn YYY
[email protected]                                            Leon Marr NNN
[email protected]              Jean-Pol Matheys [CERN - ECP Division] NNN
[email protected]                                 Matthew Geier YYY
[email protected]                                        Mike Northam YYY
[email protected]                                     Alan M. McKenney NNN
[email protected]                                                         YYY
[email protected]                                 Mikael Dalsgard YYY
[email protected]                                 Michael John Nanson YYY
[email protected]                                            MAX M. MAGLIARO NNN
[email protected]                                      Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS --Y
[email protected]                                                                 NNN
[email protected]                       Nicholas G. Carter OBPPS 32118 NNN
[email protected]                                         Nigel Strudwick YYY
[email protected]                                              Lou Newell NNN
[email protected]                                                Nolan Hinshaw NNN
[email protected]                                                Fred Ochs NNN
[email protected]                                                           Orc YYY
[email protected]                                           Phil Dennis NNN
[email protected]                                     Peter Harris NNN
[email protected]                                        Allon Percus NNN
[email protected]                                            Pete Gifford NNN
[email protected]                             Paul Harris --Y
[email protected]                                          Phons Bloemen YYY
[email protected]                                      Pablo A. Iglesias YYY
[email protected]                                                Larry Platt NNN
[email protected]                                             Peter Laws NNN
[email protected]                                       Andreas Polze NNY
[email protected]                                                      YYY
[email protected]                                 Pertti Tapola YYY
[email protected]                              Peter V. Mason NNN
[email protected]                               Michael J. Quinn YYY
[email protected]                                       Rick DeMattia NNN
[email protected]                                           Richard Coons YYY
[email protected]                                  Sendhil Revuluri NNN
[email protected]                                        Rick Nimtz NNN
[email protected]                            C. Richard Miller NNN
[email protected]                                         Richard H. Miller NNN
[email protected]                                                  NNN
[email protected]                                    Robert Klein-Douwel YYY
[email protected]                                             RH Schone YYY
[email protected]                                            Malcolm Roe NNN
[email protected]                               Roger Horner YYY
[email protected]                                             Richard Prince YYY
[email protected]                                                          NNY
[email protected]                                                    YYY
[email protected]                                                  Sam Lewit NNN
[email protected]                                            Scott Davis Y-Y
[email protected]                                         Bill Stackhouse YYY
[email protected]                                   Paul L. Schumann NNN
[email protected]                                   scott a hewis YYY
[email protected]                                   Marc Moorcroft NNN
[email protected]                                    Steven M. Bellovin NNN
[email protected]                                      Stan R. Ames NNN
[email protected]                                       Geoff Bethell NNN
[email protected]                                   Dwight Brown NNN
[email protected]                                         Steve Jones NNN
[email protected]                                              Steve Ludlum YYY
[email protected]                                Steve Ketcham NNN
[email protected]                                      Don Stevens-Rayburn NNN
[email protected]                    Christopher P Stone NYY
[email protected]                                          Cliff Straw USG NNN
[email protected]                          Tim "Strikemaster" Bowser NNN
[email protected]                                          Tim Rumph YYY
[email protected]                                             DUSTY YYY
[email protected]                                 Andrew R. Tefft YYY
[email protected]                                            Terje Knudsen -Y-
[email protected]                                   Terry Madsen YYY
[email protected]                                                       NNN
[email protected]                                     Richard Neitzel NNN
[email protected]                                               Timo Rinne YYY
[email protected]                                   Ted Koppel NNN
[email protected]                                   Travis L Searls YYN
[email protected]                                       Anthony Meadow YYY
[email protected]                                                          NNN
[email protected]                                                YYY
[email protected]                                                Tim Kirby YYY
[email protected]                               Sven Manias YYY
[email protected]                                                 NNN
[email protected]                                            Urban Fredriksson YYY
[email protected]                                      Hank van Cleef NNN
[email protected]                                        Virgil Rittenhouse NNN
[email protected]                                                  DONS W.J. YYY
[email protected]                                              Bill Brown NNN
[email protected]                                                                NNN
[email protected]                                  Wolfgang Zenker NNN
[email protected]                                Lewis E. Wolfgang NNN
[email protected]                                         Bill Sutton NNN
[email protected]                                                 YYY
[email protected]                                               Jeff Ochs NNN
[email protected]                                            Bormann -Y-
[email protected]                                              NNN
[email protected]                                     Ted Zateslo NNN


Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                               Adrian Turner
   ! No ballot
[email protected]                                                  none
   ! Invalid address
[email protected]                                                Conductor
   ! Invalid address
[email protected]                                 Dr. Yves Beaudoin
   ! No ballot

From [email protected] Thu Jan 26 18:08:57 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Andrew Toppan)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport,aus.rail,fr.misc.transport.rail
Subject: RFD: rec.railorad reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 26 Jan 1995 17:57:48 -0500
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 245
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:6243 news.groups:131268 rec.railroad:63962 rec.models.railroad:20465 misc.transport.urban-transit:12105 uk.transport:11387 aus.rail:2717 fr.misc.transport.rail:222

			Request For Discussion
			______________________


Proposal: reorganize rec.railroad as follows:
--------

Creation of:
-------------
misc.transport.rail.americas       Rail transport in North and South America
misc.transport.rail.australasia    Rail transport in the Australasia region
misc.transport.rail.europe         Rail transport in all of Europe
misc.transport.rail.misc	   Miscellaneous rail issues and discussions

Elimination of:
---------------
rec.railroad


	Status: all unmoderated
	Distribution: all world-wide
	Proponents: Andrew Toppan 
		    Colin A. Leech 

	(Cross)posted to: rec.railroad
			  aus.rail
			  uk.transport
			  rec.models.railroad
			  misc.transport.urban-transit
			  news.groups
			  news.announce.newgroups
                          fr.misc.transport.rail
			  The Railroad List 

	Followup-to: news.groups
	All discussion will take place on news.groups.

This is not a call for votes.  Do not vote now.  A call for votes will be
posted by the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers about 21 days after this RfD is
posted.

General Note:  I realize that this is a rather long RfD, but the issues
are quite complex.  I attempt to answer many FAQs from the previous
debates in this RfD, so please read the whole thing carefully before
posting or mailing a question or concern.

Rational
--------

Issue: Why Split rec.railroad at all?
-------------------------------------
-Traffic is routinely well over 100 messages daily, often over 150.
-Many people have difficulty coping with this load, especially those
 who must pay money to download the whole newsgroup.  Important or
 intersting posts can easily get lost in the stack of postings.
-The majority of postings are US-related. Europeans and others feel swamped
 and intimidated about posting about their own systems.
-Major confusion about names and initials. eg. NS = both a USA railroad
 and a Dutch railroad.
-Europeans and Britons are anxious to create their own groups. If this
 proposed split fails, it is virtually guaranteed that groups like
 uk.transport.rail and eunet.rail will be created, leaving rec.railroad
 even more isolated to strictly American topics.  Traffic from the UK has
 temporarily moved to uk.transport to avoid the problems of rec.railroad.
-The existing group aus.rail isn't available to most of the world, although
 many people outside Australia are interested in Australian railroads.
 misc.transport.rail.australasia will solve this problem.

Issue: Why not Regional Groups?
-------------------------------
-eg. aus.rail (existing), uk.transport.rail (proposed), eunet.rail (proposed)
-These hierarchies are not well propagated beyond their geographic areas.
 Many people are interested in railroads outside their own area
 Proof: numerous postings by Europeans about American railroads
 and vice versa.
-Splitting rec.railroad but keeping the new groups within the "Big 7"
 Usenet hierarchies (in practical terms, either as rec.* or misc.*) ensures
 that everybody worldwide will have the option to follow discussions of
 interest to them. Creating regional groups outside rec.* or misc.* would
 deprive a large number of people of this opportunity.
-Most British traffic has recently vanished to uk.transport, to the
 detriment of those who can not get that group. Similarly, Dutch traffic
 have moved to a mailing list.
-A major misconception during the previous discussion of this issue has been
 that the new misc.transport.rail.* groups would only be available in certain
 areas.  This is NOT the case.  ALL the new groups will be WORLDWIDE.


Issue: What kind of split?
--------------------------
- Three suggestions were put forward: geography, policy vs. operations
  (several variations), or passenger versus freight.
- The consensus is that a split into operations/policy would not be useful.
  The lines between the two are very fuzzy, and the split would not address
  the concerns over American domination.
- There are not enough postings about passenger traffic to justify a
  separate newsgroup for it.
- A geographic split is logical in terms of dividing up the postings into
  manageable pieces.  Since each group would be available WORLDWIDE,
  anyone could read about any geographic area they wanted to.
  The addition of a .misc group provides a place for discussions that
  apply to areas not covered by the other groups (eg Africa and Asia,
  which have very few posts today) and discussions that encompass more
  than one region--worldwide issues (eg merits of DC vs. AC electrification).

Issue: Last vote failed. Why try again?
---------------------------------------
The last vote to split rec.railroad failed largely due to concerns by American
readers about losing other traffic. The time has come that enough British
and European readers will create their own localized groups one way or the
other.  Splitting rec.railroad within Usenet (i.e. rec.* or misc.*) ensures
that everybody still has access to all articles, if desired. Creating regional
groups like uk.rail and eunet.rail will prevent many people from accessing
other discussions, and will be counterproductive to the rail community
as a whole.

Issue: Names of New Newsgroups
------------------------------
Hierarchy:
-----------
-Why not stay in rec.railroad?
  Railroad is not an international word.  Australia and Europe, among others,
  use railway, while the United States uses railroad.  There was a strong
  outcry against the use of "railroad" from many parts of the world.
  For example, a group named "rec.railroad.australia" would be unacceptable
  from an Australian  standpoint. "railway" would be acceptable to
  everyone, as would "rail",  although "rail" seems to be preferred.  So
  .rail MUST be used in place of .railroad if a truly international hierarchy
  is to exist.  Using "railroad" will cause the vote to fail, as non USA
  voters will vote "no".

-Why misc.transport.rail.* instead of rec.rail ??
  -There are a number of proposed or existing groups in the
   misc.transport.hierarchy. These include misc.transport.urban-transit
   and misc.transport.air-industry.  It is desirable (both from a
   sysadmin's and a user's standpoint) to put all the transport related
   newsgroups in one hierarchy:
	-easier to find the groups if they are all in one place
	-more effective use of overall Usenet namespace
	-the misc.transport hierarchy will be growing to include,
          eventually, all forms of transportation.
  -New second level group names (the "rail" in rec.rail) should be broad
   classifications (i.e. rec.arts, rec.sports, rec.crafts).  rec.rail is
   a rather narrow classification for a second level group.
  -creating a new second level group causes problems with newsfeeds--the
   new hierarchy must be manually added.  Adding misc.transport.rail.*
   would be more or less 'automatic'--an important consideration when
   thousands of sites (and thousands of sysadmins) are involved.
   The fact that rec.railroad already exists does not matter, rec.rail
   would still be a new hierarchy, not a renamed one.
  -From the point of view of overall Usenet namespace it is desirable to
   add group names at the third and fourth levels rather than the second
   level.
  -misc.transport.rail.* was the second choice in the informal poll,
   behind rec.railroad.  rec.rail was third.
  -misc.transport.rail is not without precedent, the French language
   equivalent of rec.railroad is fr.misc.transport.rail.
  -misc. should not be thought of as "insignificant subjects" or
   "trivial subjects" but as "subjects that don't fit elsewhere"


Why the 4 proposed groups?
--------------------------
m.t.r.americas, m.t.r.europe, m.t.r.australasia, m.t.r.misc

m.t.r.americas
--------------
The only country that could support a separate international Usenet
newsgroup by itself at the moment is the USA. However, American (USA)
issues, practices and interests are usually tied to Canadian and Mexican
ones, so a North American group is appropriate.  What little traffic
there currently is regarding Central and South America deals mostly with
North American railroad equipment etc. in relation to Central/South America.
For example: locomotives built in the USA and exported to Brazil,
American locomotives in Cuba. This small amount of traffic could
easily and logically be included in the North American group, making
it a comprehensive .americas group.  South and Central America clearly
could not support a separate newsgroup.   The alternative would be to put
South America in .misc, which is no better in terms of traffic volume.

m.t.r.europe
------------
m.t.r.europe will be a group for discussion of rail transit in all of
Europe.  Note that the opening of the Channel Tunnel has forever linked
Britain into the integrated European train network.  With the creation of the
European economic community, the countries of Europe are more closely
linked than ever.  Also, country-specific newsgroups (i.e m.t.r.uk) are
frowned upon by  senior Usenet newsadmins.

m.t.r.australasia
-----------------
The group m.t.r.australasia would largely replace aus.rail. Technically there
cannot be a Usenet vote on aus.* groups (the Usenet voting procedure is
only valid for the "Big 7" hierarchies of Usenet, and local/regional
newsgroups are not part of this).  However, aus.rail would be largely
redundant if misc.transport.rail.* is created, with the additional problem
that it is not widely propagated outside Australia.  The elimination of
aus.rail cannot be a part of a Usenet vote, but we suggest that Australian
news administrators may want to consider this issue if
misc.transport.rail.australasia is created.

The discussions in aus.rail have been isolated from the mainstream
Usenet, to the detriment of those who are interested but unable to receive
it. This proposal would bring Australian rail discussions into the
mainstream of Usenet.  By using .australasia instead of .australia,
discussions from that entire area (i.e. New Zealand) can be included,
keeping them out of .misc.

m.t.r.misc
----------
-For discussions that don't fit in the other groups.  Examples include
 traffic about Asia and Africa.
-For discussions that span several regions/groups.  Examples would
 be worldwide technical and economic issues and general railway/railroad
 questions.
-A starting point for future growth of the misc.transport.rail hierarchy.
 For example, the jumping off point for a m.t.r.asia if traffic should
 ever warrant.
-It is pretty much a requirement to have a .misc group in any hierarchy
 for general discussions or things that don't fit with the other
 classifications.

Worldwide Distribution
-----------------------
A frequent argument against splitting the group has been "but then I
can't read about railways in X country."  This is just plain wrong.
All the new groups will be available WORLDWIDE, so ANYONE can read
about ANY part of the world. If this reorganization fails regional
groups will surely be formed (uk.transport.rail, eunet.rail) which
will NOT be available worldwide.  This clearly would be to the
detriment of the rec.railroad community.  The reorganization will also
bring Australian discussions to the rest of the world and return UK
rail discussions to an international forum from the relative obscurity
of uk.transport.

Future Growth
-------------
Note that if any future newsgroup splits are required, they can be done
as reorganizations of groups as well as splits. For example, a future split
of m.t.r.americas could be to m.t.r.n-am and m.t.r.s-am, or to m.t.r.*
where * = individual country names (Canada, USA, etc.), or other
combinations. The current proposed setup does not preclude any future
options. If the traffic on m.t.r.europe rises to the point that a
separate UK newsgroup is warranted, m.t.r.uk can be created without
eliminating m.t.r.europe or creating another level like m.t.r.europe.uk.

From [email protected] Sun Feb 12 22:49:28 1995
Status: RO
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Andrew Toppan)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad,aus.rail,uk.transport,misc.transport.urban-transit,fr.misc.transport.rail
Subject: Re: 2nd RfD: rec.railroad reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 12 Feb 1995 22:23:38 -0500
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 159
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: is1.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:6291 news.groups:134130 rec.railroad:66307 rec.models.railroad:21795 misc.transport.urban-transit:13221

			Second Request For Discussion
			_____________________________


Proposal: reorganize rec.railroad as follows:

Creation of the following unmoderated, worldwide groups:

misc.transport.rail.americas       Railroads & railways North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz   Railways in Australia and New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.europe         Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.misc	   Miscellaneous rail issues and discussions.
	(replaces rec.railroad)

	Proponents: Andrew Toppan 
		    Colin A. Leech 

(Cross)posted to: rec.railroad, aus.rail, uk.transport, rec.models.railroad,
misc.transport.urban-transit, news.groups, news.announce.newgroups,
fr.misc.transport.rail

An announcement of this RfD will be mailed to the The Railroad List


All discussion of this RfD should take place on news.groups.

[Changes from the first RfD: m.t.r.australasia changed to .australia-nz
to avoid confusion about the areas it covers, the proposed charters for
all the groups have been added.  The charters address several concerns
raised in the previous discussions, mainly railfan participation]

**This is not a call for votes.  A CfV will be posted shortly after the
20th of this month.**


Rationale
---------

Why Split rec.railroad at all?
------------------------------
This has been discussed in great detail recently, but the basic reasons
are as follows:
-Traffic on rec.railroad is far too high.
-Various groups are considering splitting off into regional groups (i.e.
 uk.transport.rail, eunet.rail) which will not be available worldwide.
-The majority of postings are US-related. Europeans and others feel swamped
 and intimidated about posting about their own systems, so they are
 moving to regional groups.
-Major confusion about names and initials. eg. NS = both a USA railroad
 and a Dutch railroad.

Names of New Newsgroups
-----------------------
Hierarchy:
-----------
-Why not stay in rec.railroad?
  Railroad is not an international word.  Australia and Europe, among others,
  use railway, while the United States uses railroad.  There was a strong
  outcry against the use of "railroad" from many parts of the world.
  For example, a group named "rec.railroad.australia" would be unacceptable
  from an Australian  standpoint. "railway" would probably be acceptable to
  everyone, as would "rail",  although "rail" seems to be preferred.  So
  .rail MUST be used in place of .railroad if a truly international hierarchy
  is to exist.  Using "railroad" will cause the vote to fail, as non USA
  voters will vote "no".  It makes makes no sense to create a group that
  will not be used by those it is intended for.

-Why misc.transport.rail.* instead of rec.rail ??
  -There are a number of proposed or existing groups in the
   misc.transport.hierarchy. These include misc.transport.urban-transit,
   a group with discussions that are quite similar in nature to those
   in rec.railroad. It is desirable (both from a sysadmin's and a user's
   standpoint) to put all the transport related newsgroups in one hierarchy:
	-easier to find the groups if they are all in one place
	-more effective use of overall Usenet namespace
	-the misc.transport hierarchy will be growing to include,
          eventually, all forms of transportation.
  -New second level group names (the "rail" in rec.rail) should be broad
   classifications (i.e. rec.arts, rec.sports, rec.crafts).  rec.rail is
   a very narrow classification for a second level group.  New second
   level rec groups may have propagation problems--rec.ponds is a new
   second level rec. group, it is one of the worst propagated rec.
   groups out there.
  -creating a new second level group causes problems with newsfeeds--the
   new hierarchy must be manually added.  Adding misc.transport.rail.*
   would be more or less 'automatic'--an important consideration when
   thousands of sites (and thousands of sysadmins) are involved.
   The fact that rec.railroad already exists does not matter, rec.rail
   would still be a new hierarchy, not a renamed one.
  -From the point of view of overall Usenet namespace it is desirable to
   add group names at the third and fourth levels rather than the second
   level.
  -misc. should not be thought of as "insignificant subjects" or
   "trivial subjects" but as "subjects that don't fit elsewhere" or
   "subjects that overlap several classifications," as rec.railroad does.
  -misc is a more broad classification than rec., it can include railfan
   (recreational) and professional content, as well as posts from people
   who ride/use trains but are not interested in the recreational aspects of
   railroads/ways.  rec.rail would, by its name, discourage non RECreational
   discussions.  Everyone should be welcome--railfans, passengers and
   workers in the railroad/way industry.
  -misc.transport.rail.* would probably be better propagated than
   rec.rail.  misc.transport.rail is already better propagated than
   rec.railroad (#182 in the top 511 rec/misc groups vs. #345) and it is
   much newer, so it isn't even fully propagated.  Add to this the problems
   of new second level propagation in misc. (noted above, rec.ponds is a
   good example).  There are some sites that don't carry misc, but there
   are just as many (or more) that don't carry the very large rec. hierarchy.

Proposed Charters:
------------------

misc.transport.rail.*:
----------------------

The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects of
railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.

Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited to,
train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation, technology,
locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic and social
issues regarding railroads/ways, the future of rail transport and the
infrastructure of rail transport.  This list is not meant to be
all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).

These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
railways/roads. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the railroad/way industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.

Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.

Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.

misc.transport.rail.americas:
-----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.

misc.transport.rail.europe:
---------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.

misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
---------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.

misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups.  Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or the
entire world.  This will include discussions of technical issues that are
not specific to any one continent.

From [email protected] Sat Mar 25 15:07:57 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,misc.transport.urban-transit,rec.models.railroad,uk.transport,aus.rail,fr.misc.transport.rail
Subject: CFV: rec.railroad reorganization
Followup-To: poster
Date: 25 Mar 1995 14:57:36 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 130
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 16 Apr 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: gs2.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:6503 news.groups:141201 rec.railroad:71362 misc.transport.urban-transit:16422 rec.models.railroad:25101

                          FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.americas
                 unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.europe
              unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
      unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)

Newsgroups line:
misc.transport.rail.americas    Railroads & railways in North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.europe      Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz        Railways in Australia & New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc        Miscellaneous rail issues & discusions.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 15 April 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact Warren Lavallee .  For
questions about the proposed group contact Andrew Toppan .

This CFV will be cross posted to:
        rec.railroad
        misc.transport.urban-transit
        rec.models.railroad
        uk.transport
        aus.rail
        fr.misc.transport.rail
and sent to the EMail list 

CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------

The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects
of railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.

Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited
to, train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation,
technology, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic
and social issues regarding rail transport, the future of rail transport
and the infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to
be all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).

These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
rail transport. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the rail transport industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.

Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.

Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.

misc.transport.rail.americas:
----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.

misc.transport.rail.europe:
--------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.

misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
--------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.

misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or
the entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that
are not specific to any one continent.

HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group name. Basically, remove everything
except the ballot - we have to save them all on disk.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. Place a YES or NO in the
brackets next to the group name to vote for or against it. Don't
worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that
your reply inserts.

Send MAIL to:   [email protected]
Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.railroad reorg Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:
If you do not give a real name your vote may be rejected.

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.americas
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.europe
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Neither ABSTAIN nor CANCEL messages are counted as votes; they serve
only to cancel any previous vote. Abstentions are noted in the final
vote list, whereas CANCEL removes your vote from that list entirely.
(This is the only difference between the two.)

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account. If you attempt multiple votes or
other vote fraud, all your votes may be canceled and your name published.

The complete vote list will be posted with the vote result, including
how each person voted. Note that Usenet votes are not done by secret
ballot.

There will then be a five-day period during which the published vote
list may be corrected and any irregularities addressed. The
requirements for group creation are 100 more YES votes than NO votes,
and 2/3 of all counted votes being YES.

From [email protected] Tue Apr  4 19:09:57 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,misc.transport.urban-transit,rec.models.railroad,uk.transport,aus.rail,fr.misc.transport.rail
Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.railroad reorganization
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: poster
Date: 4 Apr 1995 17:47:51 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 130
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 16 Apr 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> 
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: gs2.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:6560 news.groups:143316 rec.railroad:72619 misc.transport.urban-transit:17235 rec.models.railroad:25798

                          LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.americas
                 unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.europe
              unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
      unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)

Newsgroups line:
misc.transport.rail.americas    Railroads & railways in North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.europe      Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz        Railways in Australia & New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc        Miscellaneous rail issues & discusions.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 15 April 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact Warren Lavallee .  For
questions about the proposed group contact Andrew Toppan .

This CFV will be cross posted to:
        rec.railroad
        misc.transport.urban-transit
        rec.models.railroad
        uk.transport
        aus.rail
        fr.misc.transport.rail
and sent to the EMail list 

CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------

The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects
of railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.

Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited
to, train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation,
technology, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic
and social issues regarding rail transport, the future of rail transport
and the infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to
be all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).

These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
rail transport. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the rail transport industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.

Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.

Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.

misc.transport.rail.americas:
----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.

misc.transport.rail.europe:
--------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.

misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
--------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.

misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or
the entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that
are not specific to any one continent.

HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group name. Basically, remove everything
except the ballot - we have to save them all on disk.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. Place a YES or NO in the
brackets next to the group name to vote for or against it. Don't
worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that
your reply inserts.

Send MAIL to:   [email protected]
Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.railroad reorg Ballot     (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:
If you do not give a real name your vote may be rejected.

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.americas
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.europe
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
[         ]  misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Neither ABSTAIN nor CANCEL messages are counted as votes; they serve
only to cancel any previous vote. Abstentions are noted in the final
vote list, whereas CANCEL removes your vote from that list entirely.
(This is the only difference between the two.)

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account. If you attempt multiple votes or
other vote fraud, all your votes may be canceled and your name published.

The complete vote list will be posted with the vote result, including
how each person voted. Note that Usenet votes are not done by secret
ballot.

There will then be a five-day period during which the published vote
list may be corrected and any irregularities addressed. The
requirements for group creation are 100 more YES votes than NO votes,
and 2/3 of all counted votes being YES.

From [email protected] Tue Apr 18 22:41:57 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.railroad,misc.transport.urban-transit,rec.models.railroad,uk.transport,aus.rail,fr.misc.transport.rail
Subject: RESULT: rec.railroad reorganization all groups pass
Supersedes: 
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 18 Apr 1995 21:27:17 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 484
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: 
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: gs2.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:6658 news.groups:145274 rec.railroad:74293 misc.transport.urban-transit:18283 rec.models.railroad:26751

                                RESULT
            rec.railroad reorganization - 381 valid votes

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 277   91 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.transport.rail.americas
 279   89 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.transport.rail.europe
 270   91 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
 267  102 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
   3 invalid votes

  misc.transport.rail.americas passed on Tue Mar 28 04:24:27 1995
  misc.transport.rail.europe passed on Tue Mar 28 02:43:28 1995
  misc.transport.rail.australia-nz passed on Tue Mar 28 04:24:27 1995
  misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad) passed on Tue Mar 28 05:56:49 1995

For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES
and NO) votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO
votes.

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the passed group(s)
shortly thereafter.

Newsgroups Lines:
misc.transport.rail.americas    Railroads & railways in North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.europe      Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz        Railways in Australia & New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc        Miscellaneous rail issues & discusions.


CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------

The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects
of railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.

Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited
to, train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation,
technology, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic
and social issues regarding rail transport, the future of rail transport
and the infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to
be all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).

These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
rail transport. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the rail transport industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.

Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.

Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.

misc.transport.rail.americas:
----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.

misc.transport.rail.europe:
--------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.

misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
--------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.

misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or
the entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that
are not specific to any one continent.


rec.railroad reorg Final Vote Ack

[This collection of addresses is (C)1995 by Consultix Computer Services.
Permission is strictly NOT given to use this list or any part thereof to
make a mailing list, or for mass-mailings.  Any other use is fine.]

                      misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad) ------+
                                      misc.transport.rail.australia-nz -----+|
                                            misc.transport.rail.europe ----+||
                                          misc.transport.rail.americas ---+|||
                                                                          ||||
[email protected]                               Erich S. Houchens YYYY
[email protected]                                  Mark Hufstetler NNNN
[email protected]                                         Andrew Henry YYYY
[email protected]                                    Andrew N. Smith YYYY
[email protected]                                     Andrew Waugh YYYY
[email protected]                                Gordon Webster YYYY
[email protected]                                Duncan MacGregor YYNY
[email protected]                                                      Aahz NNNN
[email protected]                                         Alexander Al YYYY
[email protected]                                             Aaron Priven YYYY
[email protected]                              Michael Paul Doyle NNNN
[email protected]                                            Tim Olson NNNN
[email protected]                                         Pierre A Plauzoles YYYY
[email protected]                                 Harry Dodsworth NNNN
[email protected]                                     Colin Leech YYYY
[email protected]                                    Peter Ahlstrom YYYY
[email protected]                                           John Hurst YYYY
[email protected]                                         Douglas A. Rohn NNNN
[email protected]                                   Chris Webster NNNN
[email protected]                                     Iain Bowen YYYY
[email protected]                                   Seth Alberts YYYN
[email protected]                                            Anthony Coulls YYYY
[email protected]                                        Jan-Erik Andelin -Y--
[email protected]                                      Erik Langeland YYYY
[email protected]                                     Anders Reggestad YYYY
[email protected]                                         Andrew Cooke YYYN
[email protected]                             Andrew McMahon YYYY
[email protected]                        The Tie-Dyed Side of the Force NNNN
[email protected]                                       Andy peerand NNNN
[email protected]                                              Alan Collier NNNN
[email protected]                             Adrian Philip Gaylard YYYY
[email protected]                                        Vincent Archer NNNN
[email protected]                                         Bill Hoffman YYYY
[email protected]                                    Ken Arromdee NNNN
[email protected]                                         Allen Seitner NNNN
[email protected]                                               Jim Ault YYYY
[email protected]                               Colin J. Churcher YYYY
[email protected]                                         Allister Coots YYYY
[email protected]                                             Alan Woolf YYYY
[email protected]                                        Alex Schneider NNNN
[email protected]                                     David G. Baird YYYY
[email protected]                                              Balaji YYYY
[email protected]                             Barry Copeland YYYY
[email protected]                                Eduardo Cordeiro NNNN
[email protected]                                                    Bob Curtis YYYY
[email protected]                                      Manfred Dalmeijer YYYY
[email protected]                                              Bernd Luettge YYYY
[email protected]                                            Bruce B. Harper NNNN
[email protected]                                       Bill Beford YYYY
[email protected]                                         Bill Nash N--N
[email protected]                                    Cliff Downey NNNN
[email protected]                                            B.J. Herbison ---Y
[email protected]                                                Robert K. Coe YYYY
[email protected]                               Robert Waller YYYY
[email protected]                               Andreas Boose YYYY
[email protected]                              Brendan Jones YYYY
[email protected]                             David Bromage YYNY
[email protected]                                      Barry Suttin YYYY
[email protected]                                   John Waldeck YYYY
[email protected]                                        Bruce Nordman YYYY
[email protected]                           Alexander Eichener NNNN
[email protected]                                          cad475 YYYY
[email protected]                                  Julien Cassaigne YYYY
[email protected]                                 Chris Stone YYYY
[email protected]                                Christopher Samuel YYYY
[email protected]                              Christophe BONNET YYYY
[email protected]                                     Christos Pathiakis YYYY
[email protected]                    Christopher D. Coleman YYYY
[email protected]                                          Yoshiyuki Kondo YYYY
[email protected]                       Craig Williamson NNNN
[email protected]                                            Craig Dewick YYYY
[email protected]                                            Colin Bell YYYY
[email protected]                                            Craig O'Connell YYYY
[email protected]                                K. CROUCH ----
[email protected]                                 Clem Tillier YYY-
[email protected]                                   Dale McClain Y---
[email protected]                                        Dan Rothschild YYYY
[email protected]                                      Dave Cromarty YYYY
[email protected]                                  Dave Nelson YYYY
[email protected]                                 David Cooper YYYY
[email protected]                    David Juergens YYYY
[email protected]                                              David Winters YYYY
[email protected]                                                 David Coon NNNN
[email protected]                                  Douglas E. Sherry NNNN
[email protected]                                              Dan Hartung YYYY
[email protected]                       Dietmar Behrens YYY-
[email protected]                                           Dik T. Winter YYYY
[email protected]                                          Donald Neal YYYY
[email protected]                                             Lynn Dobbs NNNN
[email protected]                                      Bill Donald NNNY
[email protected]                                              Steven J Dorst YYYY
[email protected]         If you do not give a real name NNNN
[email protected]                                    R D Masterton YYYY
[email protected]                                Russell Downing YYYY
[email protected]                                        Dan Morisseau NNNN
[email protected]                               David Legge YYYY
[email protected]                                           Daniel S. Dawdy YYYY
[email protected]                                           Doug Smith YYYY
[email protected]                                         Duncan McEwan YYYY
[email protected]                                         Don Wells YYYY
[email protected]                                        Evelyn Swenson YYYY
[email protected]                                                 Ed Lamagna NYYN
[email protected]                                  Bjoern Gustavsson YYYY
[email protected]                                       Edgar Circenis NNNN
[email protected]                                         Erwan David YYYY
[email protected]                                   EDDIE OLIVER YYYY
[email protected]                                 Edward J. Anderson NNNN
[email protected]                                                Evan Rosser YYYY
[email protected]                                               Andrew Toppan YYYY
[email protected]                                            Evan Werkema  YYYY
[email protected]                                   Ethelind Wright YYYY
[email protected]                                          Erik Evrard YYYY
[email protected]                                              Emery Lapinski YNYN
[email protected]                                     Freek Dijkstra. YYYY
[email protected]                            Massimo Macucci NNNN
[email protected]                                               Frank Mayhar NNNN
[email protected]                                      Greg Franklin YYYY
[email protected]                                 Frank Ronny Larsen YYYY
[email protected]                         Michael L. Fugger
 YYYY
[email protected]                                  Jacques Gerber YYYY
[email protected]                                         Garry Ricketson YYYY
[email protected]                                               Helen Gbala YYYY
[email protected]                      Romain Gengler YYYY
[email protected]                                         Eric Rosenberg YYYY
[email protected]                                 Tom Glanzman YYYY
[email protected]                                          Gerald Munz YYYY
[email protected]                                       John Spangenberg NNNN
[email protected]                                     Graham Judd YYYY
[email protected]                                    Donovan Gray YYYY
[email protected]                                     Gregory K. Ramsey YYYY
[email protected]                                               Kiran Wagle NNNN
[email protected]                                          Alan J Grossert YYYY
[email protected]                                  George Robbins YYYN
[email protected]                                        Greg O'Shea YYYY
[email protected]                                        Gustav Foseid YYYY
[email protected]                             Gary Wemmerus YYYY
[email protected]                                 Hank Eisenstein Y--Y
[email protected]                                              Hans Mulder YYYY
[email protected]                                         Harald PUHL YYYY
[email protected]                              Harold A. Driscoll YYYY
[email protected]                                               Hans Schaefer YYYY
[email protected]                                   Robert Heller NNNN
[email protected]                    Mark A. Hilmantel YYYY
[email protected]                                         Erik Hjelme YYYY
[email protected]                                           Hod Greeley NNNN
[email protected]                      Holger Metschulat YYYY
hop%[email protected]                                        Gerard Hop NNNN
[email protected]                        Howard R Garner YYY-
[email protected]                                           Hans Peter Poulsen YYYY
[email protected]                                   Helen Trillian Rose YYYY
[email protected]                                      Ian Trimnell YYYY
[email protected]                          Martin J Coghlan III YYYY
[email protected]                                               Ian Phillipps YYYY
Ian_Havercroft/BSL*[email protected]                   Ian Havercroft YYYY
[email protected]                                 David J. Ifversen NNNN
[email protected]                              Richard Ingraham YYYY
[email protected]                                           Ian Jackson ---Y
[email protected]                                   Jeremy Double YYYY
[email protected]                              Jeroen M. Mostert YYYY
[email protected]                                        James Watts YYYY
[email protected]                          Oliver Jaeschke YYYY
[email protected]                                      John Humphrey NNNN
[email protected]                                   James Strickland YYYY
[email protected]                                      Jan Joris Vereijken YYYY
[email protected]                                            Jeff Stanton YYYY
[email protected]                            Jeff Murphy NNNN
[email protected]                                        John Dennis YYYY
[email protected]                              Jeff Tyler  NNNN
[email protected]                                  Jeffrey Oliver NNNY
Jeffrey_Dobek#[email protected]                               Jeffrey Dobek NNNN
[email protected]                                   John R. Grout YYYY
[email protected]                                                    John Harkin YYYY
[email protected]                                      Jim Sandilands YYYY
[email protected]                                            Jim Mann YYYY
[email protected]                                          Jason M Miller NNNN
[email protected]                                            Joar Nilsson YYYY
[email protected]                                   Joe "Uno" Shaw YYYY
[email protected]                            Johan van den Akker YYYY
[email protected]                                   Johan Borkhuis YYYY
[email protected]                               Johannes Stille Y--N
[email protected]                                  John Murphy NYYN
[email protected]                                       John Smith -N-Y
[email protected]                                 John Zaitseff YYYY
[email protected]                         Johnathan A. Tainter NNNN
[email protected]                                                John Jenks YYYY
[email protected]                             John E. Kabat Jr. YYYN
[email protected]                                    John Mosbarger NNNN
[email protected]                                  John C. Smith NNNN
[email protected]                                              Trevor Tymchuk YYYY
[email protected]                        John Pfeffer YYYY
[email protected]                                               James Sterbenz YYYY
[email protected]                                  Joshua Kreitzer ---Y
[email protected]                                            Jon Bell YYYY
[email protected]                                           John T. Forbus NNNN
[email protected]                Mark S. Judd ([email protected]) YYYY
[email protected]                                               Julie Wright NNNN
[email protected]                                   Keith Balderson YYYY
[email protected]                       Karl Brodowsky YY-Y
[email protected]                                Kees Smilde -Y--
[email protected]                                       Wolfgang Keller YYYY
[email protected]                                        Kenneth R. Zuver NNNN
[email protected]                                  Kenneth A. W. Gansel YYYY
[email protected]                                              Ken Gilbert NNNN
[email protected]                                          Ken Heard YYYY
[email protected]                                           Kimmo Ketolainen YYYY
[email protected]                                      Bob Kirkland YYYY
[email protected]                                               Ken Clark NNNN
[email protected]                                  Ken Mortensen YYYY
[email protected]                                             Mike Clements YYYY
[email protected]                                                 Jakob Kruse YYYY
[email protected]                                       Kivi Shapiro YYYY
[email protected]                            Jos Kuipers / PPE, NA36 YYYY
[email protected]                                            Willi Kwiotek YYYY
[email protected]                                      Len Chisholm YYYY
[email protected]                                  Leigh John KIRWAN YYYY
[email protected]                                                 Twan Laan YYYY
[email protected]                             Craig Lamison YYYY
[email protected]                                                 Larry Smith YYYY
[email protected]                                          Larry Rupp NNNN
[email protected]                                     Leslie Brown YYYY
[email protected]                                Charles Gleich NNNN
[email protected]                                          Lars-Henrik Eriksson -Y-Y
[email protected]                             Martin Schr"oder YYYY
[email protected]    Sebastien LITAIZE ([email protected]. YYYY
[email protected]                                        Luis A. Rodriguez NNNN
[email protected]                     Ludo Van Helleputte YYYY
[email protected]                                          Tony Lupton YYYY
[email protected]                                        Martin Beer YYYY
[email protected]                             Michael Jennings YYYY
[email protected]                                          Michael A Chary YYYY
[email protected]                                       Jens Chr. Madsen YYYY
[email protected]                                       Matthias Ernst YYYY
[email protected]                                              Michael Mang  YYYN
[email protected]                                      Richard Manning NNNN
[email protected]                                       Rolf Mantel YYYY
[email protected]                                      Marc Moorcroft NNNN
[email protected]                               Marc J Burkhart M.D. YNNN
[email protected]                                    Marco van Uden YYYY
[email protected]                                           Marcel Jacobs YYYY
[email protected]                                       Mark Gould YYYY
[email protected]                                                Mark Borchers NYYN
[email protected]                                      Mark Gonzales NNNN
Mark_S._Petersen#[email protected]                         Mark S. Petersen Y---
[email protected]                                       Leon Marr NNNN
[email protected]                                             Martha J. Coe YYYY
[email protected]                                Matthew Geier YYYY
[email protected]                        Bernard J. Treves Brown YYYY
[email protected]                              Michal Jankowski YYYY
[email protected]                                 Robert Middour YNNY
[email protected]                                        Michael Quinlan NNNN
[email protected]                               Mitch Collinsworth YY-Y
[email protected]                                            M Mike Taksar YY-Y
[email protected]                                   Michael Brandt YYYN
[email protected]                                       Morten Sickel NNNN
[email protected]                                    David YYYY
[email protected]                                       Michael Sattler YYYY
[email protected]                           Michael Sheliga NNNN
[email protected]                                            Bengt Muten YYYY
[email protected]                                         Nate Edel YYYY
[email protected]               Nigel Cliffe, [email protected] YYYY
[email protected]                                                Nigel Allen YYYN
[email protected]                                     Nick Ingegneri NNNN
[email protected]                                           Art Nicolaysen YYYY
[email protected]                             Nicolas Holzschuch YYYY
[email protected]                              Norbert Hoffmann YYYY
[email protected]                                            Nicholas Russon YYYN
[email protected]                                                  Nick Sandru YYYY
[email protected]                                 Neil Waller YYYY
[email protected]                                            Nick Leverton YYYY
[email protected]                                           Naor Wallach YYYY
[email protected]                                 Anthony M Lenton YYYY
[email protected]                                       david parsons NNNN
[email protected]                                             M. Otto ----
[email protected]                                 Otto-Ville Ronkainen YYYY
[email protected]                                      P.J. van der Veer YYYY
[email protected]                                    Patrick Edmond YYYY
[email protected]                           Patrick Van Esch YYYY
[email protected]                                   Paul Pickford --Y-
[email protected]                                     Paul Green YYYY
[email protected]                                    Andreas Pavlik YYYY
[email protected]                                       Peter G. Chase YYYY
[email protected]                                       Allon Percus YYYY
[email protected]                                 Pertti Tapola YYYY
[email protected]                           Gotthard Pfander YYYY
[email protected]                        Philip George YYYY
[email protected]                       Paul Jefferson Hinton  NNNN
[email protected]                                         Phons Bloemen YYYY
[email protected]                                   Pierre Keller YYYY
[email protected]                                          Pete Humble YYYY
[email protected]                                            Peter Laws NNNN
[email protected]                                        Dusan Pokorny YYY-
[email protected]                                    Tony Polson YYYY
[email protected]                                       Ralf Propach YYYY
[email protected]                                    Paul Didelius YYYY
[email protected]                                    Paul Tilden YYYY
[email protected]                                     Dr Robert Stuart Lee YYYY
[email protected]                                      Rick DeMattia YYYY
[email protected]                                         Rebecca Drayer YYYY
[email protected]                                        Richard Alan Huss YYYY
[email protected]                                       Ray W Clarke YYYY
[email protected]                                          Maarten Deen NNNN
[email protected]                                      Ryan Waldron NNNN
[email protected]                                        Richard H. Lord NNNN
[email protected]                         Richard Stallard YYYY
[email protected]                              Rick J Hemingway YYYY
[email protected]                                        Richard H. Miller YYYY
[email protected]                                     Keith Rickert NNNN
[email protected]                                  Roman Hawryluk NNNN
[email protected]                                            Rick Miller YYYY
[email protected]                             Robert N. Ashcroft NNNN
[email protected]                                          Ron Newman YYYY
[email protected]                                       Robert Corner YYYY
[email protected]                                       Robert Marshall NYYY
[email protected]                                   Robert Klein-Douwel YYYY
[email protected]                                        Robert Schoenfeld NNNN
[email protected]                                    robert smith ---N
[email protected]                                    Roger Browne YYYY
[email protected]                                 Roland N. Bol YYYY
[email protected]                                        Ron Bach YYYY
[email protected]                                    Ross Burgess YYYY
[email protected]                                           Roger Taylor NNNN
[email protected]                                             R. T. Wurth NYYN
[email protected]                                                Rick Moran NNNN
[email protected]                                      Sandy Nicholson YYYY
[email protected]                               David Hoadley YYYY
[email protected]                                     Wayne Sanders-Unrein NNNN
[email protected]                                        Steen Thomassen YYYY
[email protected]                                           Scott Davis YYYY
[email protected]                                     D. A. Scocca YYYY
[email protected]                                    Scot Osterweil YYYY
[email protected]                                        Jon Seefeldt YNNY
[email protected]                                 Steve Sillato NNNN
[email protected]                          Michael Kenneth Simpson YYYY
[email protected]                                          Bill Rockefeller YYYY
[email protected]                                            Jim Rueschhoff YYYY
[email protected]                                   Steven M. Bellovin NNNN
[email protected]                                      Jeroen Smeets YYNY
[email protected]                                Sandy F. Smith, Jr. YYYY
[email protected]                            Jeroen Sprenger YYYY
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[email protected]                                      KEVIN STANDLEE YYYY
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[email protected]                                   steve holden YYYY
[email protected]    Stephen G. Ketcham ([email protected] YYYY
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[email protected]                 Martin Wollschlaeger YYYY
[email protected]                                    S.W.F. Borthwick NYYY
[email protected]                                  Tobias Benjamin Koehler YYYY
[email protected]                                   Christina Craft YYYN
[email protected]                                    Trevor Edmonds YYYY
[email protected]                                           Terje Knudsen YYYY
[email protected]                                  Terry Madsen YYYY
[email protected]                      Michiel J. Hanou [email protected] YYYY
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[email protected]                                            Tom Hedington YYYY
[email protected]                                      Anthony Meadow YYYY
[email protected]                                Tom Heiremans YYYY
[email protected]                                                Thomas K. Coe YYYY
[email protected]                                     Tony Middleton YYYY
[email protected]                                            Jim Ellwanger YYYY
[email protected]                                          Theo van Riet YYYY
[email protected]                                  Rian van der Borgt YYYY
[email protected]                              Sven Manias YYYY
[email protected]                                               Sheri Hurt YYYY
[email protected]                                 Krist van Besien YYYY
[email protected]                                             H. van Cleef NNNN
[email protected]                                          Andrew Valencia NNNN
[email protected]                      Paul Veltman  YYYY
[email protected]                                 John R. Lewis YYYY
[email protected]             VORST, Jes (Dutch) or Jesse (English) YYNN
[email protected]                                                 W.J. Dons YYYY
[email protected]                                           William Watson YYYY
[email protected]                                                   Wes Barris NNNN
[email protected]                                     Klaus Wilting -Y--
[email protected]                                 Wolfgang Zenker YYYY
[email protected]                                        Bill Sutton YYYY
[email protected]                                      Billy Harris ---N
[email protected]                                  Yves Duflot YYYY
[email protected]                           Scott W. Zeevaart YYYY
[email protected]                                  Rich Zellich NNNN


Votes in error
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[email protected]                                     Edwin Johnston
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                                Robert G. Mrotek
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                           TERENCE WILLIAM SCHELTEMA
   ! No vote statement in message