Newsgroups Main » Newsgroups Directory » Hobbies and Enthusiasts » Video

Desktop video ( rec.video.desktop )

From [email protected] Mon Feb 14 19:53:21 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: "M. Hedlund" <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.video,rec.video.production,comp.multimedia,comp.os.os2.multimedia,comp.publish.cdrom.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.sgi.graphics Subject: RFD: rec.video.desktop Followup-To: news.groups Date: 12 Feb 1994 00:30:58 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 142 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4599 news.groups:95205 rec.video:59142 rec.video.production:5733 comp.multimedia:14118 comp.os.os2.multimedia:3639 comp.publish.cdrom.multimedia:508 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:3981 comp.sys.mac.graphics:1662 comp.sys.sgi.graphics:3863  REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION: rec.video.desktop (unmoderated)  Newsgroups Line: ================ rec.video.desktop	Amateur, computer-based video editing  This message initiates a 30-day discussion period to consider the  creation of a rec.video.desktop newsgroup.  Discussion will take  place in news.groups, and _all_ follow-up posts should be posted to that group.  Anyone at all interested in this proposal is  encouraged to participate in the discussion.  Readers unfamiliar with the newsgroup creation process may obtain a brief description of it from: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.announce.newsgroups/How_to_Create*   The Need for a New Group: =========================  	This RFD stems from an ongoing discussion in rec.video.produc- tion (partial transcript below).  The discussion arose out of several posters' feeeling that the "professional" element of rec.video.produc- tion did not address their needs, and that the group was discussing a  different sort of video production -- namely, traditional A/B roll  editing and high-end, on-line post-production.  Several readers expressed  interest in a group devoted exclusively to Macintosh video, and several  others suggested a small hierarchy, organized around platform or split  between digital and analog.  While there was not a clear consensus, there  was strong support for the alternate suggestion of rec.video.desktop, which  could be expanded into platform-specific groups if traffic ever warrants. (An alt.desktop.video group was considered and dismissed.)  	While rec.video.production is not a high-traffic group, it does tend to focus on equipment and techniques available only to those with professional-level budgets -- a valuable but exclusive arena. Desktop video, or video editing that makes use of personal-computer technology, is itself an expensive pursuit, but there is a great dif- ference in scale between a $100,000 Avid Media Composer set-up and, say a Mac IIci with a video board and Adobe Premiere.  This group will hopefully address the needs of the lower-end user.  	Several posters mentioned other groups as the best forum for desktop video, but in so doing evidenced the other part of the need for a unified group: they mentioned several different groups, and could  have mentioned several more.  As well as rec.video and rec.video.produc- tion, desktop video could easily be grouped into any of the multimedia or graphics newsgroups.  A reader seeking advice on a desktop video setup might reasonably consult rec.video production, comp.multimedia,  comp.os.os2.multimedia, comp.sys.amiga.graphics, comp.sys.amiga.multi- media, comp.sys.mac.graphics, _and_ comp.sys.sgi.graphics.  No one of these groups fully address the topic, and the traffic of all of them  taken together is overwhelming.  Despite the sentiments of one partic- ipant in the original discussion, one focussed group could well draw a much higher readership than rec.video.production itself, encourage a  comparison of software, platforms, and peripherals, and provide a resource for those lacking a professional-level budget.  Proposed Charter: =================  	This group will exist to serve as a forum for users of the increasingly affordable computer-based video editing systems.  It will cover all platforms' lower-end (say, under $10-15,000) desktop video set- ups, including hardware, software, peripherals, and resources, as well as  information concerning submittals to and schedules of any amateur video contests and film festivals.  This would, for instance, exclude the Avid  Media Composer, as it is largely a professional package, but would not  exclude Avid's lower-end offerings.  The purpose of this limit is to focus  the discussion into a price range reasonable for amateurs -- high-end  users should consult rec.video.production.  Advocates for particular  platforms will be encouraged to develop platform-specific FAQs; no r.v.d FAQ, however, shall ever list a contact address for "America's Funniest Home Videos."  [;)  	Hopefully, the definition of independent filmmaking will broaden as desktop video becomes more accessible, allowing for lower production costs and easier distribution.  This group is open to all home video users regardless of their intended end-product, and hopefully it will help to develop a community of low-end users, sharing resources, stock footage, lo-tech solutions, and eventually, sample works.  The Story So Far: =================  	What follows are the relevant excerpts from the rec.video.prouction discussion that initiated this request.  Headers, quotes from preceeding posts, and .sigs have been removed to conserve space; in addition, I have tried to remove non-relevant material.  My apologies to the authors if I have cut too much or quoted out of context.   [1]  Would anyone be interested in a separate newsgroup for Mac Video Production?  I'm trying to stay up on hardware (VideoVision boards, or whatever better comes along), software (Premiere, CoSA After Effects, Elastic Reality/Morph, Infini-D, etc.), QuickTime, offloading to tape, etc. But I'm not into all this high-end and/or IBM/Amiga stuff.  [2]  Not the same, but something like it. The new group I'd like to see would be a general Macintosh multimedia newsgroup (comp.sys.mac.multimedia?), which would also leave plenty of room for discussing Mac video production like you want to.  [3]  My proposal: create rec.video.desktop to carry articles for the amateur, under-$10,000-budget crowd interested in video editing and production.  [4]  Things may be headed there, but non-linear hasn't fully arrived yet. Tape is still essential for those who are concerned about the quality of the finished product. Besides, I get about 10-20 postings a day here; do we really need to split this relatively low-volume group?  [5]  I second this suggestion...I think a group aimed at desktop video production may draw new people who either hadn't heard of the rec.video.production group, or those that assumed the group had only a traditional online editing focus.  [6]   Isn't this what comp.sys.mac.graphics is for?  [7]      [.....] I think that there appears to be enough demand for a  rec.desktop .editing channel, or something similar. I think it would  see enough use, and generate more interest once it is already existing.     But definitely it should not be Mac/Avid whatever specialized yet, that  is just ridiculous.  [End of transcript] --  ==================== ]\/[arc ]-[edlund <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Tue Mar 22 20:11:04 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Dave Cornejo) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.sgi.graphics,rec.video,rec.video.production Subject: CFV: rec.video.desktop Followup-To: poster Date: 15 Mar 1994 18:14:58 -0500 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 58 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 6 Apr 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4775 news.groups:98253 comp.multimedia:15282 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:4130 comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video:5619 comp.sys.mac.graphics:2447 comp.sys.sgi.graphics:4264 rec.video:60456 rec.video.production:6316                            FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                       unmoderated group rec.video.desktop  Newsgroups line: rec.video.desktop       Amateur, computer-based video editing and production  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 5 April 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact Dave Cornejo <[email protected]>.  For questions about the proposed group contact M. Hedlund <[email protected]>.  CHARTER          This group will exist to serve as a forum for users of the increasingly affordable computer-based video editing systems.  It will cover all platforms' lower-end (say, under $10-15,000) desktop video set- ups, including hardware, software, peripherals, and resources, as well as  information concerning submittals to and schedules of any amateur video contests and film festivals.  This group would, for instance, exclude the  Avid Media Composer, as it is largely a professional package, but would not  exclude Avid's lower-end offerings.  The purpose of this limit is to focus  the discussion into a price range reasonable for amateurs -- high-end  users should consult rec.video.production.  Advocates for particular  platforms will be encouraged to develop platform-specific FAQs; no r.v.d FAQ, however, shall ever list a contact address for "America's Funniest Home Videos."  [;)          Hopefully, the definition of independent filmmaking will broaden as desktop video becomes more accessible, allowing for lower production costs and easier distribution.  This group is, however, open to all home  video users regardless of their intended end-product.  Hopefully it will  help to develop a community of low-end users, sharing resources, stock  footage, lo-tech solutions, and eventually, sample works.  HOW TO VOTE  Send MAIL to:   [email protected] Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.  Your mail message must contain one and only on of the following statements:       I vote YES on rec.video.desktop       I vote NO on rec.video.desktop       I vote ABSTAIN on rec.video.desktop  You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  One vote counted per person, no more than one per account. System accounts such as root, postmaster, etc will not be accepted as valid. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. --  Dave Cornejo                                There is nothing so subtle Dogwood Media                                           as the obvious Fremont, California  From [email protected] Tue Mar 29 20:10:18 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Dave Cornejo) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.sgi.graphics,rec.video,rec.video.production Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.video.desktop Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Date: 29 Mar 1994 18:41:18 -0500 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 69 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Expires: 6 Apr 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4852 news.groups:99457 comp.multimedia:15736 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:4188 comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video:6175 comp.sys.mac.graphics:2782 comp.sys.sgi.graphics:4415 rec.video:61004 rec.video.production:6535                            LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                       unmoderated group rec.video.desktop  Newsgroups line: rec.video.desktop       Amateur, computer-based video editing and production.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 5 April 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact Dave Cornejo <[email protected]>.  For questions about the proposed group contact M. Hedlund <[email protected]>.  CHARTER          This group will exist to serve as a forum for users of the increasingly affordable computer-based video editing systems.  It will cover all platforms' lower-end (say, under $10-15,000) desktop video set- ups, including hardware, software, peripherals, and resources, as well as  information concerning submittals to and schedules of any amateur video contests and film festivals.  This group would, for instance, exclude the  Avid Media Composer, as it is largely a professional package, but would not  exclude Avid's lower-end offerings.  The purpose of this limit is to focus  the discussion into a price range reasonable for amateurs -- high-end  users should consult rec.video.production.  Advocates for particular  platforms will be encouraged to develop platform-specific FAQs; no r.v.d FAQ, however, shall ever list a contact address for "America's Funniest Home Videos."  [;)          Hopefully, the definition of independent filmmaking will broaden as desktop video becomes more accessible, allowing for lower production costs and easier distribution.  This group is, however, open to all home  video users regardless of their intended end-product.  Hopefully it will  help to develop a community of low-end users, sharing resources, stock  footage, lo-tech solutions, and eventually, sample works.  HOW TO VOTE  Send MAIL to:   [email protected] Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.  Your mail message must contain one and only on of the following statements:       I vote YES on rec.video.desktop       I vote NO on rec.video.desktop       I vote ABSTAIN on rec.video.desktop  You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  One vote counted per person, no more than one per account. System accounts such as root, postmaster, etc will not be accepted as valid. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.  BOUNCED ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS  Acknowledgements sent to the following addresses were returned as undeliverable:  [email protected] [email protected]  If you sent a vote, did not receive an acknowledgement and your address was not on this list, please resend it. --  Dave Cornejo                                There is nothing so subtle Dogwood Media                                           as the obvious Fremont, California  From [email protected] Mon Apr 11 19:36:58 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Dave Cornejo) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.sgi.graphics,rec.video,rec.video.production Subject: RESULT: rec.video.desktop passes 208:19 Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Date: 8 Apr 1994 16:29:50 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 304 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4919 news.groups:100159 comp.multimedia:16017 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:4213 comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video:6501 comp.sys.mac.graphics:3018 comp.sys.sgi.graphics:4501 rec.video:61356 rec.video.production:6665                                      RESULT                       unmoderated group rec.video.desktop               unmoderated group rec.video.desktop passes 208:19  There were 208 YES votes and 19 NO votes, for a total of 227 valid votes.  There was 1 abstain and 5 invalid ballots.  For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.   There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.  If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter.   Newsgroups line: rec.video.desktop       Amateur, computer-based video editing and production.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 5 April 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact Dave Cornejo <[email protected]>.  For questions about the proposed group contact M. Hedlund <[email protected]>.  CHARTER          This group will exist to serve as a forum for users of the increasingly affordable computer-based video editing systems.  It will cover all platforms' lower-end (say, under $10-15,000) desktop video set- ups, including hardware, software, peripherals, and resources, as well as  information concerning submittals to and schedules of any amateur video contests and film festivals.  This group would, for instance, exclude the  Avid Media Composer, as it is largely a professional package, but would not  exclude Avid's lower-end offerings.  The purpose of this limit is to focus  the discussion into a price range reasonable for amateurs -- high-end  users should consult rec.video.production.  Advocates for particular  platforms will be encouraged to develop platform-specific FAQs; no r.v.d FAQ, however, shall ever list a contact address for "America's Funniest Home Videos."  [;)          Hopefully, the definition of independent filmmaking will broaden as desktop video becomes more accessible, allowing for lower production costs and easier distribution.  This group is, however, open to all home  video users regardless of their intended end-product.  Hopefully it will  help to develop a community of low-end users, sharing resources, stock  footage, lo-tech solutions, and eventually, sample works.   unmoderated group rec.video.desktop Final Vote Ack  Voted Yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "64671::kranburg"@utopst.enet.dec.com                      Otto van Kranenburg [email protected]                                         Neil Gould [email protected]                                           Kelvin Leung [email protected]                                        alan cairns [email protected]                                         Aimee Poquette [email protected]                                           Alan Larue [email protected]                                                   Albert Nurick [email protected]                                      Andrew King [email protected]                                            Andy Witek [email protected]                                         Allen Petlock [email protected]                                              Augustine Lo [email protected]                                                    Jim Ault [email protected]                                                 Basil Pappas [email protected]                                       D. E. Bath [email protected]                                          Eugene B. Vitenberg [email protected]                                              Bernd Backhaus [email protected]                                               Erik Bethke [email protected]                                                   Beth Asch [email protected]                                       Shag Aristotelis [email protected]                                                  B.J. Herbison [email protected]                                                  faculty [email protected]                                                  Brad May [email protected]                                                  William May [email protected]                                         Bob Herb [Sales] [email protected]                                          Bernard Rapacchi [email protected]                                                  Brian Gragg [email protected]                                  Brian Strull [email protected]                                                Brett Rudley [email protected]                                                 Chipaul Cao [email protected]                                               Cynthia Frazier [email protected]                                                               [email protected]                                        Chandima Cumaranatunge [email protected]                                         Charles King [email protected]                                         Chris Novy [email protected]                                  chris williams [email protected]                                             Chun Hung Wan [email protected]                                King of FIRE Jackson [email protected]                                  Matthew Conlon [email protected]                                                                  [email protected]                                           James Crawford [email protected]                                                Cathy Smith [email protected]                                       Bj|rn Zetterstr|m [email protected]                                        Bertil Jonell [email protected]                                               David Butcher [email protected]                                                          [email protected]                                        Daniel R. Kegel [email protected]                                             Dan Rorabaugh [email protected]                                          Hajjar Dany [email protected]                                            Dave Baker [email protected]                                                              [email protected]                      Francisco X DeJesus [email protected]                                  Dave Hardman - MD34 [email protected]                                                Don Hayashi [email protected]                              David Mondor [email protected]                                         Uwe Gerlach [email protected]                                                            drwho%[email protected]                        Dave Shariff Yadallee [email protected]                                          Mike Duvall [email protected]                                                     Edward Bertsch [email protected]                                    Eric A. Furie [email protected]                                                        [email protected]                                                   Jeff Economy [email protected]                                            Eric Clayton [email protected]                                    Erik S. Kolar [email protected]                                    Ann T. Mosconi [email protected]                                    ARMSTRONG, ERIC [email protected]                                              Ernest Peter [email protected]                                                    Samu Mielonen [email protected]                                            [email protected]                                                   Glen Cameron [email protected]                              Darrell J. Gillespie [email protected]                                             Gerald N Shapiro [email protected]                                       Mark Goldberg [email protected]                                                 [email protected]                                            Ward Hanson [email protected]                                                     [email protected]                                               m.trepanier [email protected]                                                  M. Hedlund [email protected]                                     Milan Hejtmanek [email protected]                                           Jeffry C. Hino [email protected]                                              Marcelo Hoffmann [email protected]                                                 Chris Neimann [email protected]                                                   Ilkka Tuuli [email protected]                                             Ian Rickards [email protected]                 Kees van der Wal +31 70 332 6295 [email protected]                                                Jack Mcgee [email protected]                                              Peter Jacobson [email protected]                                         James Friesen [email protected]                                                       [email protected]                              Jeff Sylvia [email protected]                                             Jeff Mann [email protected]                                                   Jim Tebow [email protected]                                                     [email protected]                                                Joe Smith [email protected]                                             Joe Ayala [email protected]                                        Jon Hunt [email protected]                                               Jon Noble [email protected]                                       J. Porter Clark [email protected]                                      Justin B. Phipps [email protected]                                                  Jeff Sokolov [email protected]                                                                 [email protected]                                         Jonathan E. Vall [email protected]chi.il.us                                         Brian Katzung [email protected]                                                 Kenneth CHASE [email protected]                                            Paul Kerchen [email protected]                                                     Kevin Bagley [email protected]                                   Greg L. Kimnach [email protected]                                                                [email protected]                                        Martin Schroeder [email protected]                                                        [email protected]                                                        [email protected]                                           Linda Quicker [email protected]                                          H Morrow Long [email protected]                                               Lorne Covington [email protected]                                         Linda Ann Scott [email protected]                                                  Luigi Filippini [email protected]                                        Mark Gallucci [email protected]                                                   kirk marple [email protected]                                            Matt Nieberger [email protected]                                       Mark Atwood [email protected]                                   Maurizio De cecco [email protected]                                                   Susan McAtee [email protected]                               Harry Lee Cohen, 1907-1994 [email protected]                               Christoffer Kanljung [email protected]                                                Fernando Medrano [email protected]                                         Melinda Phelps [email protected]                                          Melissa Hughes [email protected]                                Matthew Edward Ericson [email protected]                                         Michael Butler [email protected]                                                Michael Lim [email protected]                                                  Mike Ford [email protected]                                 David McFarling [email protected]                                                         [email protected]                                           Ibrahim Mohammed [email protected]                                  David Muir Sharnoff [email protected]                                  Nannette Simpson [email protected]                                 Nolan Allen Polley [email protected]                                                   Neil Glossop [email protected]                                                  Neil Morris [email protected]                                                Norm Herzog [email protected]                                    Olivier GOBERT [email protected]                                             Michael Olivier [email protected]                                                P.J. O'Connell (PA) [email protected]                                  Patti Sue Thompson [email protected]                                                 Paul Horne [email protected]                                              Moeroa [email protected]                                                           [email protected]                                              Paul Ferne [email protected]                                               Pedro F Lopes [email protected]                                      Phill Coxon [email protected]                                            David Pierce [email protected]      Patrick J. Harris, II, Gallaudet University [email protected]                                                 Paolo Murri [email protected]                                                            [email protected]                                             Steven Cobb [email protected]                                       Paul van der Heu [email protected]                                   Michael J. Quinn [email protected]                                                           [email protected]                                                      Bob Immel [email protected]                                      Roland Siebelink [email protected]                                                  Rob Lewis [email protected]                                        Robert Stevenson [email protected]                                                            [email protected]                                   Richard L. Muller [email protected]                                            [email protected]                                                           [email protected]                                                   Robert Kluge [email protected]                                Jose Suarez /ADVISOR Rafert [email protected]                                          Robert Rolf [email protected]                                            Samer Farha [email protected]                                                                    [email protected]                                                      [email protected]                                                    [email protected]                                            Jeff Schuenke [email protected]                                               [email protected]                                               Scott Levine [email protected]                                            .signature [email protected]                                         simeon peter [email protected]                                                           [email protected]                                         Steven Inglis [email protected]                                              Sterling Ledet [email protected]                                                      Sam Neal [email protected]                                              Christoph Sold [email protected]                                                   [email protected]                                                    Stel Valavanis [email protected]                                     STEFAN JAUSLIN [email protected]                                                        [email protected]                                          Tom Branham [email protected]                                                 Eyal Teler [email protected]                                             Tom Gerstel [email protected]                                                   Tom Heyward [email protected]                                        Thorsten Kitz [email protected]                                             Michael Tiemann [email protected]                                     Michael Tillman [email protected]                                                  Tim Musselman [email protected]                                                   TONY_OK%[email protected]                                                TonyOK [email protected]                                          Michael Drury [email protected]                                                             [email protected]                                                     REMe [email protected]                                         Juhani Vaittinen [email protected]                                            Jason Verch [email protected]                                                           VB [email protected]                                                 Ewout Walraven [email protected]                                        Wieland Holfelder [email protected]                                        Wei-Yi Li [email protected]                                              Marc van Kempen [email protected]                                              Winston Tharp  Voted No ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                               [email protected]                                  Sean P. Ryan [email protected]                                         G. "Wolfe" Woodbury [email protected]                                         Charlie Halbrook [email protected]                                     John R. MacWilliamson [email protected]                                          Julian Macassey [email protected]                                                             Kah [email protected]                                                             [email protected]                                                     Alan Larson [email protected]                                         Daniel Martin [email protected]                                          Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS [email protected]                                         A. M. Mughal [email protected]                                         Murali Chaparala [email protected]                                       Mr. Leong Wai Ming [email protected]                                      Sendhil Revuluri [email protected]                                             Richard H. Miller [email protected]                                       Marc Moorcroft [email protected]                                                  Dwight Brown [email protected]                                        Ward F. Bush  Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                        Bulletin Board System   Votes in error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                     Baron and Baron Prods    ! No vote statement in message [email protected]                                              Doug Hewko    ! No vote statement in message [email protected]                                                       Mike Ranta    ! No vote statement in message [email protected]                                                                    ! Invalid address [email protected]                                                   Trevor Sawler    ! No vote statement in message --  Dave Cornejo                                There is nothing so subtle Dogwood Media                                           as the obvious Fremont, California