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Trading cards ( rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace )
 
From [email protected] Fri Jul 14 11:18:10 1995
Status: RO
Path: uunet!in1.uu.net!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: RFD: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorg
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 13 Jul 1995 20:19:23 -0400
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Lines: 157
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: gs2.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:7144 news.groups:159381 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:143821 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:19408

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
     unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic
      unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
                        (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

       Summary:  Reorganization of rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace
                 into separate groups for Magic: The Gathering and
                 other trading-card games.

    Proponents:  Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>
                 Russ Allbery <[email protected]>

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) for the reorganization of the
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.  Do not vote now;
this is the discussion phase only, and voting will not begin for at least 21
days.

This RFD will be crossposted to the following concerned groups:

	news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
	rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, rec.games.trading-cards.misc

Followups have been set to news.groups and all discussion should take place
there.

RATIONALE

   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
   statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
   Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
   difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
   Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority of
   the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way, and it
   is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the first screen
   of the post which game the post concerns.

   The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
   concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
   found by interested readers.  A beneficial side effect of this would be
   to reduce off-topic marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc,
   since the stated purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is
   generally that marketplace is too full of Magic.

   For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the traffic
   breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to create a .misc
   group, see the separate section below.

NEWSGROUP LINES

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc	Trading game card paraphernalia.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic	Trading of Magic: The Gathering.

CHARTERS

   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic
   -----------------------------------------

   This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
   auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)
   related to Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game
   published by Wizards of the Coast.  Discussion of trading is also
   welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of the game besides trading belongs
   in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate
   for this newsgroup.

   Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for this
   newsgroup may be crossposted.


   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
   ----------------------------------------

   This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
   auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)
   related to collectible trading-card games which do not have their own
   groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.* hierarchy.  Examples
   of such games at this time include Illuminati: New World Order, Star
   Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.  Discussion of trading is also
   welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of the games besides trading
   belongs elsewhere in the rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not
   appropriate for this newsgroup.

   Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
   their own newsgroup may be crossposted.

   Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
   indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

TRAFFIC BREAKDOWN

   Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
   June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that time
   span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering	1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG		   53 posts
      Rage			   27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

   As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of existing
   traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point where postings
   concerning any other game are very difficult to find.  No other game has
   sufficient traffic volume at this time to support its own group.

NOTE ON MISC RENAMING

   Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
   proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic in
   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new .magic
   group.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the unlikely event
   that the renaming passes and the other group fails, the hierarchy will
   not be left without a group for trading trading-card games other than
   Magic.  The .magic group cannot be left as rgt-c.marketplace without
   causing unnecessary confusion.

   This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
   traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness and
   wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

PROCEDURE

   After a discussion period of 21 to 30 days, a Call for Votes (CFV) will
   be issued.  The voting period will then last at least 21 days after that
   time.  Once the vote result is posted, there will be a 5 day waiting
   period to allow for any objections to the vote to be raised.  If there
   are no serious objections, and if 100 more valid YES votes are received
   than NO votes AND at least 2/3 of the total number of valid votes
   received are YES, then the groups will be created.

   If the renaming of .marketplace to .marketplace.misc passes, the
   .marketplace group will be removed after a waiting period of
   approximately two months, to allow time for the transition to the new
   groups.

   Again, DO NOT VOTE NOW.  This is the discussion phase of the process, and
   voting will not begin for at least 21 days.

--
Russ Allbery ([email protected])     http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~rra/

From [email protected] Mon Jul 31 13:43:51 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 31 Jul 1995 17:42:57 -0000
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Lines: 224
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7248 news.groups:162080 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:158012 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:20571

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
      unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
            (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

       Summary:  Reorganization of rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace
                 into separate groups for Magic: The Gathering and
                 other trading-card games.

    Proponents:  Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>
                 Russ Allbery <[email protected]>

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) for the reorganization of the
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.  Do not vote now;
this is the discussion phase only, and voting will not begin for at least 21
days.

This RFD will be crossposted to the following concerned groups:

	news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
	rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, rec.games.trading-cards.misc

Followups have been set to news.groups and all discussion should take place
there.


RATIONALE

   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
   statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
   Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
   difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
   Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority of
   the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way, and it
   is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the first screen
   of the post which game the post concerns.

   The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
   concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
   found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
   into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
   they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
   three, depending on what they are looking for.

   A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic marketplace
   posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated purpose for
   posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that marketplace is
   too full of Magic.

   For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the traffic
   breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to create a .misc
   group, see the separate section below.


NEWSGROUP LINES

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc  Trading of trading card paraphernalia
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales  Selling Magic cards
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades  Trading Magic cards
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions  Auctions of Magic cards


CHARTERS

   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
   -----------------------------------------------

   This group is for the selling of games paraphernalia (cards, other
   components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a collectible
   trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined
   to be asking a set monetary price.  Trades and auctions are specifically
   not appropriate.  Adding a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a
   sale.  Discussion of sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects
   of the game besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.*
   hierarchy and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

   Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for this
   newsgroup may be crossposted.


   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
   ------------------------------------------------

   This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
   components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a collectible
   trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  Trading is defined
   to be offering merchandise for other merchandise, and specifically
   includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of auctions are
   specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary auctions may be
   crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of trading is also welcome;
   discussion of other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
   rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
   newsgroup.

   Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for this
   newsgroup may be crossposted.


   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
   --------------------------------------------------

   This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
   components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a collectible
   trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For the purposes of
   this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless they include the
   possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no bidding is taken, and
   trades are specifically not appropriate for this newsgroup.  Discussion
   of auctions is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
   besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
   and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

   POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
   THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
   takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.  If
   your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web or ftp
   site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not require
   posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated newsgroup, this
   request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered extremely poor
   manners to violate it.

   Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for this
   newsgroup may be crossposted.


   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
   ----------------------------------------

   This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
   auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)
   related to collectible trading-card games which do not have their own
   groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.* hierarchy.  Examples
   of such games at this time include Illuminati: New World Order, Star
   Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.  Discussion of trading is also
   welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of the games besides trading
   belongs elsewhere in the rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not
   appropriate for this newsgroup.

   Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
   their own newsgroup may be crossposted.

   Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
   indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.


TRAFFIC BREAKDOWN

   Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
   June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that time
   span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering	1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG		   53 posts
      Rage			   27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

   As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of existing
   traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point where postings
   concerning any other game are very difficult to find.  No other game has
   sufficient traffic volume at this time to support its own group.

   Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades, and
   auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the proponent
   will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should someone wish to
   do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a fairly equal
   distribution among the three types of posts, although with fewer trades
   than sales or auctions.


NOTE ON MISC RENAMING

   Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
   proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic in
   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new .magic
   groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the unlikely event
   that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the hierarchy will
   not be left without a group for trading trading-card games other than
   Magic.

   This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
   traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness and
   wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.


PROCEDURE

   After a discussion period of 21 to 30 days, a Call for Votes (CFV) will
   be issued.  The voting period will then last at least 21 days after that
   time.  Once the vote result is posted, there will be a 5 day waiting
   period to allow for any objections to the vote to be raised.  If there
   are no serious objections, and if 100 more valid YES votes are received
   than NO votes AND at least 2/3 of the total number of valid votes
   received are YES, then the groups will be created.

   If the renaming of .marketplace to .marketplace.misc passes, the
   .marketplace group will be removed after a waiting period of
   approximately two months, to allow time for the transition to the new
   groups.

   Again, DO NOT VOTE NOW.  This is the discussion phase of the process, and
   voting will not begin for at least 21 days from the posting of the first
   RFD.

--
Russ Allbery ([email protected])     http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~rra/

From [email protected] Wed Aug 16 20:34:24 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Jim Davis)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: CFV: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization
Followup-To: poster
Date: 17 Aug 1995 00:25:49 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 249
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 8 Sep 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7357 news.groups:164715 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:170878 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:21955

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

NEWSGROUP LINES

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales         Selling Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades        Trading Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions      Auctions of Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc  Trading of trading card paraphernalia.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 7 Sep 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact Jim Davis <[email protected]>.  For questions
about the proposed groups contact Russ Allbery <[email protected]>
or Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>.

RATIONALE (Submitted by the proposer)

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority
of the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way,
and it is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the
first screen of the post which game the post concerns.

The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
three, depending on what they are looking for.

A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic
marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated
purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that
marketplace is too full of Magic.

For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the
traffic breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to
create a .misc group, see the separate section below.

Traffic breakdown
-----------------

Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that
time span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering      1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG               53 posts
      Rage                         27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of
existing traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point
where postings concerning any other game are very difficult to find.
No other game has sufficient traffic volume at this time to support
its own group.

Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades,
and auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the
proponent will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should
someone wish to do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a
fairly equal distribution among the three types of posts, although
with fewer trades than sales or auctions.

Note on misc renaming
---------------------

Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic
in rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new
.magic groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the
unlikely event that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the
hierarchy will not be left without a group for trading trading-card
games other than Magic.

This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness
and wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

This group is for the selling of or offering of money for games
paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)  related to
Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game published by
Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined to be asking a set monetary
price.  Trades and auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Adding
a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a sale.  Discussion of
sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game besides
sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is
not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.
Trading is defined to be offering merchandise for other merchandise,
and specifically includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of
auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary
auctions may be crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of
trading is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For
the purposes of this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless
they include the possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no
bidding is taken, and trades are specifically not appropriate for this
newsgroup.  Discussion of auctions is also welcome; discussion of
other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for
this newsgroup.

POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.
If your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web
or ftp site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not
require posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated
newsgroup, this request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered
extremely poor manners to violate it.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules,
etc.)  related to collectible trading-card games which do not have
their own groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.*
hierarchy.  Examples of such games at this time include Illuminati:
New World Order, Star Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.
Discussion of trading is also welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of
the games besides trading belongs elsewhere in the
rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
newsgroup.

Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
their own newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion
groups is specifically not appropriate.

Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a
YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If
you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote
characters (">") that your reply inserts.

Then mail the ballot to:  [email protected]
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorg Ballot    <DEN-0001> (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ YES     ]  example.yes.vote
[ NO      ]  example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention

[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES

You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the
outcome.  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program.  You should receive an automatic acknowledgment of your vote
within three days.  If you do not, contact the votetaker about the
problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is
registered correctly.

Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.
Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final
voting results list.

Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid
vote.

Anonymous votes will not be accepted.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered anonymous votes.  (The vote must be mailed
directly from the voter to the votetaker.)

In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is
standard operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the
violator.

If you give anyone a copy of the CFV, it must be whole and unmodified.

When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

OFFICIAL SOURCES OF THE CFV

The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the Usenet
newsgroups to which it is posted by the votetaker, including
news.announce.newgroups, and the votetaker.

From [email protected] Fri Aug 25 17:20:37 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Jim Davis)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization
Followup-To: poster
Date: 25 Aug 1995 21:20:33 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 261
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 8 Sep 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7409 news.groups:165913 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:177788 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:22789

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

NEWSGROUP LINES:
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales         Selling Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades        Trading Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions      Auctions of Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc  Trading of trading card paraphernalia.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 7 Sep 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact Jim Davis <[email protected]>.  For questions
about the proposed groups contact Russ Allbery <[email protected]>
or Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>.

RATIONALE: (Submitted by the proposer)

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority
of the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way,
and it is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the
first screen of the post which game the post concerns.

The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
three, depending on what they are looking for.

A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic
marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated
purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that
marketplace is too full of Magic.

For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the
traffic breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to
create a .misc group, see the separate section below.

Traffic breakdown
-----------------

Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that
time span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering      1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG               53 posts
      Rage                         27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of
existing traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point
where postings concerning any other game are very difficult to find.
No other game has sufficient traffic volume at this time to support
its own group.

Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades,
and auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the
proponent will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should
someone wish to do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a
fairly equal distribution among the three types of posts, although
with fewer trades than sales or auctions.

Note on misc renaming
---------------------

Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic
in rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new
.magic groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the
unlikely event that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the
hierarchy will not be left without a group for trading trading-card
games other than Magic.

This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness
and wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

This group is for the selling of or offering of money for games
paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)  related to
Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game published by
Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined to be asking a set monetary
price.  Trades and auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Adding
a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a sale.  Discussion of
sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game besides
sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is
not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.
Trading is defined to be offering merchandise for other merchandise,
and specifically includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of
auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary
auctions may be crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of
trading is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For
the purposes of this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless
they include the possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no
bidding is taken, and trades are specifically not appropriate for this
newsgroup.  Discussion of auctions is also welcome; discussion of
other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for
this newsgroup.

POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.
If your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web
or ftp site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not
require posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated
newsgroup, this request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered
extremely poor manners to violate it.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules,
etc.)  related to collectible trading-card games which do not have
their own groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.*
hierarchy.  Examples of such games at this time include Illuminati:
New World Order, Star Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.
Discussion of trading is also welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of
the games besides trading belongs elsewhere in the
rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
newsgroup.

Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
their own newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion
groups is specifically not appropriate.

Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

END CHARTER.

HOW TO VOTE

Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line.  Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a
YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it.  If
you don't want to vote on a particular group, just leave the space
blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote
characters (">") that your reply inserts.

Then mail the ballot to:  [email protected]
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorg Ballot    <DEN-0002> (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here:

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ YES     ]  example.yes.vote
[ NO      ]  example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention

[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
[         ]  rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES

You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the
outcome.  Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting
program.  You should receive an automatic acknowledgment of your vote
within three days.  If you do not, contact the votetaker about the
problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is
registered correctly.

Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.
Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final
voting results list.

Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid
vote.

Anonymous votes will not be accepted.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered anonymous votes.  (The vote must be mailed
directly from the voter to the votetaker.)

In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is
standard operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the
violator.

If you give anyone a copy of the CFV, it must be whole and unmodified.

When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

OFFICIAL SOURCES OF THE CFV

The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the Usenet
newsgroups to which it is posted by the votetaker, including
news.announce.newgroups, and the votetaker.

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorg Bounce List - No need to revote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                                Rob van Riel
[email protected]                                       Bruce H. Bowen

From [email protected] Tue Sep 12 15:40:25 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Jim Davis)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: CFV CANCELLED: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 12 Sep 1995 19:40:21 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 7
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7487 news.groups:167303 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:190201 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:24537

The current vote on the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace
reorganization has been canceled because of email problems at the
votetaker's site.  A new Call For Votes will be sent out soon.  Since
the vote will be starting over from the beginning you will need to
vote again; ballots from the current vote will not be carried over to
the new vote.  I'm sorry for the inconvenience.


From [email protected] Tue Sep 12 15:41:48 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.announce
Subject: CFV: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization (revote)
Followup-To: poster
Date: 12 Sep 1995 19:41:45 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 249
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 4 Oct 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Jan Isley <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7498 news.groups:167314 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:190204 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:24538 rec.games.trading-cards.announce:230

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

Newsgroups lines:
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales	Selling Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades	Trading Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions	Auctions of Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc	Trading trading card stuff.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 3 Oct 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Russ Allbery <[email protected]>
Proponent: Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[email protected]>

RATIONALE:

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority
of the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way,
and it is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the
first screen of the post which game the post concerns.

The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
three, depending on what they are looking for.

A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic
marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated
purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that
marketplace is too full of Magic.

For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the
traffic breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to
create a .misc group, see the separate section below.

Traffic breakdown
-----------------

Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that
time span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering      1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG               53 posts
      Rage                         27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of
existing traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point
where postings concerning any other game are very difficult to find.
No other game has sufficient traffic volume at this time to support
its own group.

Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades,
and auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the
proponent will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should
someone wish to do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a
fairly equal distribution among the three types of posts, although
with fewer trades than sales or auctions.

Note on misc renaming
---------------------

Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic
in rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new
.magic groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the
unlikely event that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the
hierarchy will not be left without a group for trading trading-card
games other than Magic.

This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness
and wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

This group is for the selling of or offering of money for games
paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)  related to
Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game published by
Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined to be asking a set monetary
price.  Trades and auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Adding
a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a sale.  Discussion of
sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game besides
sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is
not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.
Trading is defined to be offering merchandise for other merchandise,
and specifically includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of
auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary
auctions may be crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of
trading is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For
the purposes of this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless
they include the possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no
bidding is taken, and trades are specifically not appropriate for this
newsgroup.  Discussion of auctions is also welcome; discussion of
other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for
this newsgroup.

POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.
If your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web
or ftp site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not
require posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated
newsgroup, this request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered
extremely poor manners to violate it.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules,
etc.)  related to collectible trading-card games which do not have
their own groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.*
hierarchy.  Examples of such games at this time include Illuminati:
New World Order, Star Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.
Discussion of trading is also welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of
the games besides trading belongs elsewhere in the
rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
newsgroup.

Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
their own newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion
groups is specifically not appropriate.

Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

END CHARTER.

HOW TO VOTE:

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

      [email protected]

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements
for each group you wish to vote on:

      I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
      I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

      I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
      I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

      I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
      I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

      I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
      I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL but these are not counted as valid
votes for the total count.

If your mail software does not indicate your real name, please also
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

      Give your real name here:

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
-- 
Jan Isley <[email protected]>
votes to: <[email protected]>

From [email protected] Fri Sep 22 15:17:53 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.announce
Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization (revote)
Followup-To: poster
Date: 22 Sep 1995 19:17:47 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 260
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 4 Oct 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Jan Isley <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7592 news.groups:168166 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:197908 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:25655 rec.games.trading-cards.announce:238

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
  unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc (renames rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace)

Newsgroups lines:
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales	Selling Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades	Trading Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions	Auctions of Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc	Trading trading card stuff.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 3 Oct 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Russ Allbery <[email protected]>
Proponent: Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[email protected]>

RATIONALE:

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority
of the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way,
and it is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the
first screen of the post which game the post concerns.

The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
three, depending on what they are looking for.

A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic
marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated
purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that
marketplace is too full of Magic.

For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the
traffic breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to
create a .misc group, see the separate section below.

Traffic breakdown
-----------------

Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that
time span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering      1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG               53 posts
      Rage                         27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of
existing traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point
where postings concerning any other game are very difficult to find.
No other game has sufficient traffic volume at this time to support
its own group.

Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades,
and auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the
proponent will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should
someone wish to do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a
fairly equal distribution among the three types of posts, although
with fewer trades than sales or auctions.

Note on misc renaming
---------------------

Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic
in rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new
.magic groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the
unlikely event that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the
hierarchy will not be left without a group for trading trading-card
games other than Magic.

This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness
and wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

This group is for the selling of or offering of money for games
paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)  related to
Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game published by
Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined to be asking a set monetary
price.  Trades and auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Adding
a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a sale.  Discussion of
sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game besides
sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is
not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.
Trading is defined to be offering merchandise for other merchandise,
and specifically includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of
auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary
auctions may be crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of
trading is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For
the purposes of this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless
they include the possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no
bidding is taken, and trades are specifically not appropriate for this
newsgroup.  Discussion of auctions is also welcome; discussion of
other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for
this newsgroup.

POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.
If your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web
or ftp site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not
require posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated
newsgroup, this request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered
extremely poor manners to violate it.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules,
etc.)  related to collectible trading-card games which do not have
their own groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.*
hierarchy.  Examples of such games at this time include Illuminati:
New World Order, Star Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.
Discussion of trading is also welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of
the games besides trading belongs elsewhere in the
rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
newsgroup.

Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
their own newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion
groups is specifically not appropriate.

Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

END CHARTER.

HOW TO VOTE:

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

    [email protected]

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements
for each group you wish to vote on:

    I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
    I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

    I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
    I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

    I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
    I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

    I vote YES on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
    I vote NO on rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL but these are not counted as valid
votes for the total count.

If your mail software does not indicate your real name, please also
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

    Voter name:

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.* Bounce List - No need to revote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HART.FRANKLIN*[email protected]                           J. Andrew Hart
[email protected]                                Michael Minnotte

Votes in error
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                    Patricia Dunville
   ! No vote statement in message

-- 
Jan Isley <[email protected]>    |  Running UseVote 3.0
votes to: <[email protected]>  |  Powered by FreeBSD

From [email protected] Wed Oct  4 03:33:41 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace,rec.games.trading-cards.misc
Subject: RESULT: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace reorganization (revote) all groups pass
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 4 Oct 1995 07:33:33 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 622
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace-reorg
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7669 news.groups:169381 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace:206459 rec.games.trading-cards.misc:26779

                                RESULT
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales passes 360:26
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades passes 359:29
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions passes 353:32
unmoderated group rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc passes 363:25

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 360   26 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales
 359   29 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades
 353   32 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions
 363   25 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc
   5 invalid votes


Newsgroups lines:
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales	Selling Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades	Trading Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions	Auctions of Magic cards.
rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc	Trading trading card stuff.

Voting closed on 23:59:59 UTC, 3 Oct 1995.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Russ Allbery <[email protected]>
Proponent: Dave Van Domelen <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: all groups

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, according to the last posted
statistics, receives more posts per month than any other newsgroup on
Usenet.  The sheer volume of the newsgroup has made it extremely
difficult to follow, especially for those not interested in Magic: The
Gathering, the card game which accounts for the overwhelming majority
of the traffic.  Most of the Magic traffic is not marked in any way,
and it is often difficult to tell from the subject line or even the
first screen of the post which game the post concerns.

The main purpose of this proposal is therefore to split off posts
concerning other card games from the Magic traffic so that they can be
found by interested readers, as well as breaking up the Magic traffic
into easily-distinguished subgroups.  Several people have stated that
they often only look for one of sales, trades, and auctions, not all
three, depending on what they are looking for.

A beneficial side effect of this would be to reduce off-topic
marketplace posts to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, since the stated
purpose for posting there rather than .marketplace is generally that
marketplace is too full of Magic.

For more details on the current traffic in .marketplace, see the
traffic breakdown below.  For specific comments on the decision to
create a .misc group, see the separate section below.

Traffic breakdown
-----------------

Analysis of 1,316 random articles posted to rgt-c.marketplace between
June 11th and July 11th (weighted towards an interval early in that
time span) reveals the following traffic breakdown:

      Magic: the Gathering      1,090 posts
      Star Trek: CCG               53 posts
      Rage                         27 posts
      Jyhad                        13 posts
      INWO                          9 posts
      SimCity                       6 posts
      Star Wars                     6 posts
      Wyvern                        6 posts
      On The Edge                   3 posts
      Spellfire                     3 posts
      Bloodwars                     1 post
      Doomtrooper                   1 post
      Star of the Guardian          1 post
      Warp                          1 post

      More than one game           16 posts
      Accessories                   2 posts

      Off-topic                    39 posts
      General discussion           24 posts
      Unclassified                  9 posts
      Split discussion              4 posts

As is apparent from this traffic breakdown, the vast majority of
existing traffic is dedicated to Magic: The Gathering, to the point
where postings concerning any other game are very difficult to find.
No other game has sufficient traffic volume at this time to support
its own group.

Additional analysis to determine the breakdown between sales, trades,
and auctions among the Magic posts has not been done (although the
proponent will gladly include any such analysis in this RFD should
someone wish to do it), but a quick scan of the newsgroup reveals a
fairly equal distribution among the three types of posts, although
with fewer trades than sales or auctions.

Note on misc renaming
---------------------

Unlike most renamings of groups to .misc, the .misc group in this
proposal is actually the new group.  The vast majority of the traffic
in rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace is expected to move to the new
.magic groups.  The renaming is phrased as it is so that, in the
unlikely event that the renaming passes and the other groups fail, the
hierarchy will not be left without a group for trading trading-card
games other than Magic.

This proposal therefore does not include a .misc renaming in the
traditional sense, and the ongoing debate about the appropriateness
and wisdom of such renamings is not relevant.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales

This group is for the selling of or offering of money for games
paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules, etc.)  related to
Magic: The Gathering, a collectible trading-card game published by
Wizards of the Coast.  Selling is defined to be asking a set monetary
price.  Trades and auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Adding
a buy-out bid to an auction does not make it a sale.  Discussion of
sales is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game besides
sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is
not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades

This group is for the trading of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.)  related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.
Trading is defined to be offering merchandise for other merchandise,
and specifically includes trade auctions.  Sales and other types of
auctions are specifically not appropriate.  Combined trade/monetary
auctions may be crossposted to the auction group.  Discussion of
trading is also welcome; discussion of other aspects of the game
besides sales belongs in the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy
and is not appropriate for this newsgroup.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions

This group is for the auctioning of games paraphernalia (cards, other
components, rules, etc.) related to Magic: The Gathering, a
collectible trading-card game published by Wizards of the Coast.  For
the purposes of this newsgroup, auctions exclude trade auctions unless
they include the possibility of a monetary bid.  Sales, where no
bidding is taken, and trades are specifically not appropriate for this
newsgroup.  Discussion of auctions is also welcome; discussion of
other aspects of the game besides sales belongs in the
rec.games.trading-cards.magic.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for
this newsgroup.

POSTERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO POST NO MORE THAN ONE UPDATE EVERY
THREE DAYS.  Due to the nature of Usenet news transmission, it often
takes more than three days for a post to reach any given Usenet site.
If your auction requires more frequent updates, please provide a Web
or ftp site, e-mail them, or transmit them in some way that does not
require posting to this newsgroup.  As this is an unmoderated
newsgroup, this request cannot be enforced; however, it is considered
extremely poor manners to violate it.

Posts concerning several games which are otherwise appropriate for
this newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion groups
is specifically not appropriate.

END CHARTER.

CHARTER: rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc

This group is for the trading (which includes buying, selling, and
auctioning) of games paraphernalia (cards, other components, rules,
etc.)  related to collectible trading-card games which do not have
their own groups in the rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.*
hierarchy.  Examples of such games at this time include Illuminati:
New World Order, Star Trek, Wyvern, Jyhad, and many others.
Discussion of trading is also welcome.  Discussion of other aspects of
the games besides trading belongs elsewhere in the
rec.games.trading-cards.* hierarchy and is not appropriate for this
newsgroup.

Posts concerning both games with their own newsgroup and games without
their own newsgroup may be crossposted.  Crossposting to discussion
groups is specifically not appropriate.

Posters are STRONGLY encouraged to use keywords on the subject line to
indicate the game(s) to which their posts are relevant.

END CHARTER.

rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.* Final Vote Ack


                           rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc ------+
                 rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions -----+|
                   rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.trades ----+||
                    rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales ---+|||
                                                                       ||||
[email protected]                         Tarragon Moon Allen YYYY
[email protected]                                   Trevor Hyde YYYY
[email protected]                                       Andrew Durston YYYY
[email protected]                            Achim Reinhardt YYYY
[email protected]                                        Adam Kake YYYY
[email protected]                               Andrea Gondring YYYY
[email protected]                                          Angelo Kandas YYYY
[email protected]                                  Anita Kilgour YNNY
[email protected]                                 Alan Nichols YYYY
[email protected]                                  Alan Glover YYYY
[email protected]                                     Alan Hoyle YYYY
[email protected]                           Alexander von Thorn YYYY
[email protected]                                     Jesse Littlewood YYYY
[email protected]                                     Ed Allen YYYY
[email protected]                                     Andy Merritt YYYY
[email protected]                                         Alan Gopin YYYY
[email protected]                      Andreas Jellinghaus YYYY
[email protected]                                         Andrew Hung YYYY
[email protected]                                  Andrew Herington YYYY
[email protected]                                Andrew Brecher YYYY
[email protected]                                         Andy Latto YYYY
[email protected]                                     Vincent Archer YYYY
[email protected]                                       Arthur Kimes YYYY
[email protected]                                      Adrian Salter YYYY
[email protected]                                       Ashton Eidolon -YYY
[email protected]                                          Kevin Barth YYYY
[email protected]                                 Basil Vandegriend YYYY
[email protected]                                  Shaper Y-YY
[email protected]                                             Bryan Ebersole YYYY
[email protected]                                         Jeremy York YYYY
[email protected]                                               Ellen Edge YYYY
[email protected]                               Burt N Holzman NNNN
[email protected]                                            Alan Fisher Y---
[email protected]                                      Tracy S. Bitonti YYYY
[email protected]                                         B.J. Herbison ---Y
[email protected]                                     Steven Howard YYYY
[email protected]                                   Mark Boyes YYYY
[email protected]                             Brian Vickers YYYY
[email protected]                                Alberto Verdini YYYY
[email protected]                                            Brus Wasson YYYY
[email protected]                                    Bill Stripp YYYY
[email protected]                                      Stephane Bura YYYY
[email protected]                             Bradley R Burns YYYY
[email protected]                       Christopher L. Weeks YYYY
[email protected]             Curtis "Chewbacca" Desjardins YYNY
[email protected]                                           Andrew Carey NNNN
[email protected]                                       Carl Norum YYYY
[email protected]                     Caroline Davis Burstein YYYY
[email protected]                                         Alan De Smet YYYY
[email protected]                                    Tony Charles YYYY
[email protected]                    Andreas Christalon YYYY
[email protected]                                 Christian Tellefsen YYYY
[email protected]                          Cliff Blanchette YYYY
[email protected]                              Charles Poirier YYYY
[email protected]                                 Chris-top-her YYYY
[email protected]                                  Cody M. Stumpo YYYY
[email protected]                            Michele Coleman YYYY
[email protected]                                Kevin Scaldeferri YYYY
[email protected]                                     J. Craig Brunson NNNY
[email protected]                             John Croft YYYY
[email protected]                      Kenneth P Crouch ----
[email protected]                                              Don Croyle NNNN
[email protected]                                       Michiel Wijers NNNN
[email protected]                                       Cynthia Buffum YYYY
[email protected]                             Tapani Utriainen -Y--
[email protected]                                               Dale King YYYY
[email protected]                           Damian O'Dea YYYY
[email protected]                                    Dan Harkless YYYY
[email protected]                                             Dave Anderson YYYY
[email protected]                                    David Thureson YYYY
[email protected]                                 David DeLaney YYYY
[email protected]                                  Dimitri Katsaros YYYY
[email protected]                                          Jack Wilson NNNY
[email protected]                                         Tony DeLyria YYYY
[email protected]                      Joseph W. DeVincentis YYYY
[email protected]                                       Justin Diachun YYYY
[email protected]                                   Dick Zelvelder ---Y
[email protected]                           Brett A. Burkholder YYYY
[email protected]                                        D. J. Trindle YYYY
[email protected]                                         Dan Tomso YYYY
[email protected]                                         Darby Keeney YYYY
[email protected]                                               David Latz YYYY
[email protected]                                    Thomas A. Doehne YYYY
[email protected]                                                       YYYY
[email protected]                             Dennis P. Brown YYYY
[email protected]                                            Don Perrin YYYY
[email protected]                                       david (d.) peters YYYY
[email protected]                                         David Resnick YYYY
[email protected]                                 Dean Richards YYYY
[email protected]                                            David Bedno YYYY
[email protected]                                                          YYYY
[email protected]                                       Michael Bahr YYYY
[email protected]                     Dave Van Domelen YYYY
[email protected]                                        Douglas W. Anderson YYYY
[email protected]                              Robert I. Eachus YYYY
[email protected]                                Russ Allbery YYYY
[email protected]                                 Robert Blackman YYYY
[email protected]                                         Steve Earth YYYY
[email protected]                                              Jake Edge YYYY
[email protected]                                          David Doust YNNY
[email protected]                                     Eric Oster YYYY
[email protected]                                   John M. Elston YYYY
[email protected]                                    Rene Reichardt YYYY
[email protected]                                  James Smith YYYY
[email protected]                                      R. Eric Reuss YYYY
[email protected]                                 Erica L. Frank YYYY
[email protected]                                    Erich Selna YYYY
[email protected]                                 E.C. Abrahamse -YYY
[email protected]                                      Gene Schwartzman YYYY
[email protected]                             Beth Walz YYYY
[email protected]                                J. Andrew Lipscomb YYYY
[email protected]                                            YYYY
[email protected]                         David Michael Mendelsohn YYYY
[email protected]                                          Bob Flaminio YYYY
[email protected]                                       Christian Folini YYYY
[email protected]                                       Glyn Forster YYYY
[email protected]                                   Fred Timm YYYY
[email protected]                                       Frederick Scott YYYY
[email protected]                                    Hal Tippens YYY-
[email protected]                                                       YYYY
[email protected]          Frederic Gingras aka - The Raven - YYY-
[email protected]                                         Joe Helfrich YYYY
[email protected]                                        Pete Gaughan YYYY
[email protected]                                          Geb Buxton YYYY
[email protected]                                   Randall M! Gee YYYY
[email protected]                          Peter M. Geiser YYYY
[email protected]                                      Geoffrey H Spear NNNN
[email protected]                             Eric Gilbertson YYYY
[email protected]                               Richard Goodman YYYY
[email protected]                               Dan Gosselin YYYY
[email protected]                                     Allen Rines YYYY
[email protected]                                     Coranth Gryphon YYYY
[email protected]                                      Bin Chen YYYY
[email protected]                                    John Guthrie YYYY
[email protected]                                  Gregory Weiss YYYY
HART.FRANKLIN*[email protected]                      J. Andrew Hart YYYY
[email protected]                                      Patrick A. Ludwig YYYY
[email protected]                                  Harry Benkiel YYYY
[email protected]                                Brian Hebert YYYY
[email protected]                                                      YYYY
[email protected]                                   William R. Ward NNNN
[email protected]                                Brent Heustess YYYY
[email protected]                                          Scott Hoffman YYYY
[email protected]                                        Gordon Holcomb YYYY
[email protected]                                Helen Trillian Rose YYYY
[email protected]                                           Greg Hunt YYYY
[email protected]                                            Hyman Rosen YYYY
[email protected]                                        Josh Smith YYYY
[email protected]                        ALLAN T. GROHE, JR. YYYY
[email protected]                                            Innate Mak YYYY
[email protected]                                               Jeff Boes NNNY
[email protected]                                      John Yeates YYYY
[email protected]                                  Jeff Abramson NNNY
[email protected]                               John Huntington ---Y
[email protected]                              Jan Coekelberghs ---N
[email protected]                    Jasper M. Rosenberg YYYY
[email protected]                                    John C. Fiala YYYY
[email protected]                                      Joseph C. Garner YYYY
[email protected]                                               Jeff Curry YYYY
[email protected]                       Joshua Marquart YYYY
[email protected]                                Joe. Dunville YY--
[email protected]                            Jeff D. Williamson YYYY
[email protected]                                    Jefferson P. Carey YYYY
[email protected]                                    Jen Hassler YYYY
[email protected]                                         Jens Schou YYYY
[email protected]                                         Jeremy White YYYY
[email protected]                             J. Eric Townsend YYYY
[email protected]                                      John Fowler YYYY
[email protected]                                         Joseph Grace YYYY
[email protected]                                   Joseph H. Kernodle YYYY
[email protected]                                  John Lagrave YYYY
[email protected]                                         Joe Mucchiello YYYY
[email protected]                                     Jon Masters YYYY
[email protected]        James R. McClure Jr. YYYY
[email protected]                                          James Lebak YYYY
[email protected]                                Joe Robins YYYY
[email protected]            Joe St Sauver ([email protected]) NNNN
[email protected]                                            John Abbe YYYY
[email protected]                                         Mark Johnson YYYY
[email protected]                                 John Teti Jr. YYYY
[email protected]                                Leah and Shawn Johnson YYYY
[email protected]                            Jonas Schiott YYYY
[email protected]                                           Trevor Tymchuk YYYY
[email protected]                                              Mark Jones YYYY
[email protected]                                   Jake Patterson YYYY
[email protected]                                John R. Ricker Jr. YYYY
[email protected]                             John R. MacWilliamson NNNN
[email protected]                                    Jeff Webster YYYY
[email protected]                                    Joseph E. Trawick YYYY
[email protected]                                    William T. Kahler YYYY
[email protected]                                  Atro Kajaste YYYY
[email protected]                                         Klas Mellbourn YYYY
[email protected]                                YYYY
[email protected]                                 Karsten Krieg YYYY
[email protected]                                           Malcolm Rose YYYY
[email protected]                                        Kevin Chung YYYY
[email protected]                                           David Kiker YYYY
[email protected]                                          Kirby Krueger YYYY
[email protected]                                Kjetil Svendsberget YYYY
[email protected]                                             Kenny Reed YYYY
[email protected]                     Kevin Michael Fehlberg YYYY
[email protected]                                       Gerald Dokka NNNY
[email protected]                                Michael C Kuczi YYYY
[email protected]                                         Kenny Raby YYYY
[email protected]                                           Kenny Sinn YYYY
[email protected]                                             YYYY
[email protected]                               Eric Kuritzky YYYY
[email protected]                                          Alan Kwan YYYY
[email protected]                                      Keith Wilhite YYYY
[email protected]                                 Kevin W. Thornton YYYY
[email protected]                                  Luca Lettieri YYYY
[email protected]                                          Lance K. Chun NNNN
[email protected]                                Lantz Rowland YYYY
[email protected]                                         Larry Reeves YYYY
[email protected]                                 Ville Lavonius YYYY
[email protected]                                             Steven Lee YYYY
[email protected]                                         Leif Euren YYYY
[email protected]                                  Leon D. Leithoff YYYY
[email protected]                                     LittleZero YYYY
[email protected]                          Martin Schr"oder YYYY
[email protected]                                Lisa Kvarda YYYY
[email protected]                                 Leo Davis YYYY
[email protected]                                  Lonnie Barnett YYYY
[email protected]                    Lars Onsager, [email protected] YYYY
[email protected]                            Jacob R. Lorch YYYY
[email protected]                       Christopher E. Sanders YYYY
[email protected]                                          Daniel Sharp YYYY
[email protected]                            Mike Dalton YYYY
[email protected]                                 Erik Allen  YYYY
[email protected]                                 Michael Fitch YYYY
[email protected]                               Maria C. Boyington YYYY
[email protected]                      Andrew Markiel YYYY
[email protected]                               Martin Higham YYYY
[email protected]                                 Ken Gerrard YYYY
[email protected]                                 Arjen Gnodde YYYN
[email protected]                        Michael C. Barden YYYY
[email protected]                                   Mark J. Dulcey YYYY
[email protected]                                     meiko-chan YYYY
[email protected]                                    Peter Meilinger YYYY
[email protected]                         Michael Edward Noth YYYY
[email protected]                                      Michael Bryan YYYY
[email protected]                                          Mike Knauer YYYY
[email protected]                       Michael Pusateri YYYY
[email protected]                           Michael Minnotte YYYY
[email protected]                                    Matt J. Carlson YYYY
[email protected]                                                Mark Sironi YYYY
[email protected]                          Michael T. Kelly YYYY
[email protected]                                       Myra Wong NNNY
[email protected]                                   Michael MacKinnon YYYY
[email protected]                                  M Mike Taksar KC6ZPS ----
[email protected]                              Joshua Kronengold YYYY
[email protected]                                            Mike Sullivan YYYY
[email protected]                                       Mariela Ortiz YYYY
[email protected]                                        Mike Brezsnyak YYYY
[email protected]                     Geoffrey Todd Walker YYYY
[email protected]                                   Mike Marcelais YNYY
[email protected]              Klaus Mueller YYYY
[email protected]                          Michael W. Daniels YYYY
[email protected]                                     Nancy Durgin YYYY
[email protected]                                              Nat Johnson YYYY
[email protected]                                       Charles E. Bush YYYY
[email protected]                           Abd al-Azrad YYYY
[email protected]                              Michael J. Nickoloff YYYY
[email protected]                                      Piers Hearn YYYY
[email protected]                                     Olav Nieuwejaar NNNN
[email protected]                                         Olav Sxyseth YYYY
[email protected]                             Ollivier Robert YYYY
[email protected]                                             david parsons YYYN
[email protected]                                          Stephen Padbury YYYY
[email protected]                                   Patrick J. LoPresti NNNN
[email protected]                            Patricia Noble YYYY
[email protected]                                       Patrick Martin YYYY
[email protected]                  Patterson, John YYYY
[email protected]                                Peter Flynn YYYY
[email protected]                                          Pete Coady  YYYY
[email protected]                                    Peter Hentges YYNY
[email protected]                                          Mark K. Pettit YYYY
[email protected]                                       Peter Grace YYYN
[email protected]                                             Phil Hill YYYY
[email protected]                               Michael David Phoenix YYYY
[email protected]                               Paul D. Nurnberger YYYY
[email protected]                                         Ron Zalewski YYYY
[email protected]                                  Peter J. McCarthy YYYY
[email protected]                           Steve Pratte YYYY
[email protected]                                          Paul van Gool YYYY
[email protected]                  Russell J. Alphey YYYY
[email protected]                                          Ralph Brendler YYYY
[email protected]                                     Ralph Dickey YYYY
[email protected]                                               Robin D. Laws YYYY
[email protected]                     Grant Anthony Mitchell YYYY
[email protected]                            Rick Rechowicz YYYY
[email protected]                                       robbin flowers YYYY
[email protected]                                  Rich Forster YYYY
[email protected]                                         Richard Moe YYYY
[email protected]                                 Richard Clyne YYYY
[email protected]                                John Richards YYYY
[email protected]                                   Richard Daugherty YYYY
[email protected]                                     Richard H. Miller YYNY
[email protected]                                   Gale Barnett YYYY
[email protected]                                    Roosevelt Jones II ---Y
[email protected]                                                        YYYY
[email protected]                            Robert M. Garrett YYYY
[email protected]                                 Richard C. Mills YYYY
[email protected]                                        Rob Derrick YYYY
[email protected]                                        Robyn Kozierok YYYY
[email protected]                                      Ron Ronsayro YYYY
[email protected]                                  Rod Shelton YYYY
[email protected]                                    Rodney Schuler YYYY
[email protected]                                     Robert Smits NNNN
[email protected]                      Roxanne P. Spencer YYYY
[email protected]                                             Rob McDougall YYYY
[email protected]                                Frank Niemeyer YYYY
[email protected]                          Steven Richardson YYYY
[email protected]                               Sascha Meinrath -Y--
[email protected]                        Gunnar Sauermann YYYY
[email protected]                                         Scott Lores YYYY
[email protected]                                        Scott A. Stewart YYYY
[email protected]                                          John Yu YYYY
[email protected]                                                Sandy Dong -Y--
[email protected]                                     Sheila Davis YYYY
[email protected]                           Jacob Olbert YYYY
[email protected]                            Steve Goodman YYYY
[email protected]                                Steve Griffin YYYY
[email protected]                                     Alexander Siegelin YYYY
[email protected]                                       Sean Harvey YYYY
[email protected]                                     Michael Shields YYYY
[email protected]                                            Seth Hoyt YYYY
[email protected]                            Shrisha Rao NNNN
[email protected]                                         Bob Simpson YYYY
[email protected]                                        karl scheirer YYYY
[email protected]                              Scott Kitchen YYYY
[email protected]                                 Smarasderagd NNNN
[email protected]                                      Scott M. Larabee YYYY
[email protected]                                          Dave Howell YYYY
[email protected]                                 Steffan O'Sullivan YYYY
[email protected]                                  Susan Parker YYYY
[email protected]                                  Stephen Patterson YYYN
[email protected]                                   Erik Selberg YYYY
[email protected]                             Eric Mulvihill YYYY
[email protected]                                     Dylan F. Walsh YYYY
[email protected]                                                          YYYY
[email protected]                                   Staffan Friberg YYYY
[email protected]                                          Dwight Brown NNNN
[email protected]                             Sarah Skovronsky YYYY
[email protected]                      Stephan Hermens YYYY
[email protected]                        Andrew Stefanski YYYY
[email protected]                                   Michael J. Stern YYYY
[email protected]                        Abraham Theodorus Stolk YYYY
[email protected]                                  Stu Labovitz YYYY
[email protected]                               Stuart Smith YYYY
[email protected]                                 Steven Zwanger YYYY
[email protected]                                           Alexander Loew YYYY
[email protected]                                        Tod Beardsley YYYY
[email protected]                                        Tom de Ruyter YYYY
[email protected]                                          Bill Toscano YYYY
[email protected]                    Technical Intelligence-MN-USA NNNN
[email protected]                              Deven D. Atkinson YYYY
[email protected]                            Ted Kim (Random Dude) YYYY
[email protected]                              Tom Gioconda YYYY
[email protected]                            Thomas Granvold YYYY
[email protected]                         Thomas Mechtersheimer YYYY
[email protected]                                  David H. Thornley YYYY
[email protected]                                        Tim Fierro YYYY
[email protected]                                          Tim Otholt YYYY
[email protected]                      Todd C. Lawson NNNY
[email protected]                              Thomas McCambley YYYY
[email protected]                                   Michael F. Tomkins. YYYY
[email protected]                                             Toby Elliott YYYY
[email protected]                                Tommy Johansson YYYY
[email protected]                                Shane H. W. Travis YYYY
[email protected]                                      Donald Tsang YYYY
[email protected]                              Tim Skirvin YYYN
[email protected]                                  Michael Tsuk YYYY
[email protected]                                Tim Pierce NNNY
[email protected]                                   David Alan Urbanek YYYY
[email protected]                                       Jack Dracula YYNY
[email protected]                                         N. T. Wakelyn YYYN
[email protected]                                    Paul Waterman YYYY
[email protected]                                         Jim McDonald YYYY
[email protected]                                      William C. Ralph YYYY
[email protected]                                       Bob Weissman NNNN
[email protected]                         Don Wells - NPG Sr. SysAdmin YYYY
[email protected]                                        W.W. Gilpin YYYY
[email protected]                                                  Wes Jones YYYY
[email protected]                                Wendell T. Hicken YYYY
[email protected]                                 Risto Widenius NNNN
[email protected]                                         Jeff Wilder YYYY
[email protected]                                                Seyil Yoon Y---
[email protected]                                  Paul Winter YYYY
[email protected]                                                 Jaeger YYYY
[email protected]                                    Walter Klust YYYY
[email protected]                                Andrew D. Woodard YYYY
[email protected]                                              Glenn Godard YYYY
[email protected]                                         Jim Croci YYYY
[email protected]                               Aaron C. Eidinger YYYY
[email protected]                                            Brent Burke YYYY
[email protected]                                     Yee-Ming Chan YYYY
[email protected]                                             YYYY


Votes in error
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                          David Clark-Joseph
   ! Conflicting votes
[email protected]                                    Patricia Dunville
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                    Tony Lee Manion
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                      John W Elbl
   ! No vote statement in message
[email protected]                                          John Nowakowski
   ! No vote statement in message
 
USENET FACT: Big-8
BIG-8 hierarchies are the 8 traditional top hierarchies of the Usenet. See the following page for more