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Metaphilosopy ( sci.philosophy.meta )

From [email protected] Tue Feb 18 00:02:38 1992 Flags: 000000000201 To: [email protected] Path: iitmax!demodsb From: [email protected] (David Bombardier) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups Subject: CALL FOR VOTES:  SCI.PHILOSOPHY.OBJECTIVISM Date: 7 Feb 90 08:10:26 GMT Reply-To: [email protected] (David Bombardier) Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology Lines: 144 Keywords: posted   Moderator:  Bob Stubblefield has been trying to post a call for votes on sci.philosophy.objectivism for the past week.  His machine's mailhandler has been functioning erratically, and he's not sure whether or not the call has been received.  He sent the call both to news.announce.newgroups and to Eliot Lear.  He asked me to forward the call.  If you have already received the call, please ignore this message.  Also, per Bob's request, please edit the "newsgroups" line to include news.groups, sci.philosophy.meta, talk.philosophy.misc, talk.politics.theory, alt.individualism and alt.atheism in addition to news.announce.newgroups and sci.philosophy.tech.  Thanks a lot!  -- David Bombardier    [email protected]  --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From @att.UUCP:[email protected] Sun Feb  4 15:04:12 1990 Received: by iitmax.iit.edu 	(5.61+/IDA-1.2.8) id AA08078; Sun, 4 Feb 90 15:04:09 -0600 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 90 15:04:09 -0600 Message-Id: <[email protected]> From: [email protected] (R W Stubblefield +1 201 949 2846) To: [email protected] Cc: demodsb Subject: Another attempt to CALL FOR SPO VOTES Status: R  Eliot,  The att gateways are causing much trouble.  Please ignore this if you've already gotten my first attempt to call for votes for sci.philosophy.tech.  Otherwise, please submit what I have below the cut line.  For your information, I'm receiving mail this morning some of which was sent by people a week ago and some (like your CC to me answering Dave Bombardier's question) written yesterday.  Apparently they've fixed the att gateway problems to let current stuff through but still have a big backlog of past mail to work on.  Thanks, Bob Stubblefield ====================CUT LINE=========================================== Path: cbnewsh!rws From: [email protected] (r.w.stubblefield) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,sci.philosophy.tech Subject: CALL FOR VOTES - sci.philosophy.objectivism Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: 2 Feb 90 14:51:46 GMT Reply-To: Robert W Stubblefield <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 85   This is the first CALL FOR VOTES for the sci.philosophy.objectivism newsgroup, which is to be unmoderated.  If you are in favor of this group and charter (as defined below), send me mail with the single line of text:  YES for sci.philosophy.objectivism as proposed.  If you are opposed to the existence of this group with this charter, send me mail with the single line of text:  NO for sci.philosophy.objectivism as proposed.  I receive mail addressed to [email protected], 			[email protected], 			or att!houxa!bobs.  Because of the recent troubles with att gateways, the vote will run for 28 days.  Votes received after 3/2/90 will not be counted. ====================================================================  1.  The Name--SPO  Sci--because of the approach participants should use when contributing to this newsgroup.  What is scientific about it is that conclusions should be drawn by reasoning based on observations of reality.  Neither "Ayn Rand says so" nor "I just feel it's so" should be used as a premise for a conclusion.  Philosophy--because fundamental principles, at the base of all other human knowledge, will be the content.  All five branches of philosophy will be discussed.  Objectivism--because most participants will be people who have already grasped the fact that Ayn Rand has identified a set of fundamental principles that integrate to make a philosophy.  Most contributors should have actually read the relevant works by Ayn Rand before making any lengthy comments on a topic.  Posters who question her conclusions are NOT excluded.  Rational, reality-based, logical opponents asking specific questions are welcome.  2.  Charter  sci.philosophy.objectivism	for those who grasp that philosophy is 	a science and are interested in studying Ayn Rand's philosophy 	of Objectivism.  The primary content is intended to be 	reasoned analysis of philosophic principles (and their 	applications) based on facts of reality.  This current posting (in total) comprises a longer explanation of the charter.  Note that the word "primarily" allows the contributions of announcements, publications, classes, club meetings and such as long as they are interesting to people studying Objectivism.  It also allows the derivative use by honest, polite, serious folks who are not studying it but may want to learn more about Objectivism.  3.  Quality  Several things will help SPO achieve the quality its founders desire.  a)  The precise wording of the charter above should be used in Gene Spafford's list of newsgroups.  b)  This notice will be posted monthly.  c)  Guidelines that rational people should follow to attenuate noise of irrational posters will be posted periodically.  d)  Style guidelines arrived at within the newsgroup will be posted periodically.  e)  Guidelines for expressing disagreement will be posted periodically.  f)  The only action needed by system administrators should be to prevent the only way someone can initiate (indirect) force; i.e., they need to remove USENET privileges of those who fraudently associate their words with the signatures of others.  DISCLAIMER:  the intent of this group is not to represent Objectivism but to provide a forum for studying it.  RWS  2/2/90 --  Bob Stubblefield att!houxa!bobs 201-949-2846                   [email protected]    From [email protected] Tue Feb 18 00:12:22 1992 Flags: 000000000201 From: [email protected] (r.w.stubblefield) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,sci.philosophy.tech,news.groups,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.individualism,talk.politics.theory Subject: 2nd CALL FOR VOTES - sci.philosophy.objectivism Date: 18 Feb 90 04:29:33 GMT Reply-To: Robert W Stubblefield <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Keywords: posted  [This is one of two votes occurring simultaneously for a group along  the same subject line.  The other one is in the talk hierarchy.  -eliot]  This is the second CALL FOR VOTES for the sci.philosophy.objectivism newsgroup, which is to be unmoderated.  A MASS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of votes received so far will be sent to news.groups.  If you are in favor of this group and charter (as defined below), send me mail including the line of text:  YES for sci.philosophy.objectivism as proposed.  If you are opposed to the existence of this group with this charter, send me mail including the line of text:  NO for sci.philosophy.objectivism as proposed.  Please include your complete name in either the header or body of the message to facilitate vote checking.  I receive mail addressed to [email protected], 			[email protected], 			or att!houxa!bobs.  Because of the recent troubles with att gateways, the vote will run for 28 days from 2/7.  Votes received after 3/7/90 will not be counted. ====================================================================  1.  The Name--SPO  Sci--because of the approach participants should use when contributing to this newsgroup.  What is scientific about it is that conclusions should be drawn by reasoning based on observations of reality.  Neither "Ayn Rand says so" nor "I just feel it's so" should be used as a premise for a conclusion.  Philosophy--because fundamental principles, at the base of all other human knowledge, will be the content.  All five branches of philosophy will be discussed.  Objectivism--because most participants will be people who have already grasped the fact that Ayn Rand has identified a set of fundamental principles that integrate to make a philosophy.  Most contributors should have actually read the relevant works by Ayn Rand before making any lengthy comments on a topic.  Posters who question her conclusions are NOT excluded.  Rational, reality-based, logical opponents asking specific questions are welcome.  2.  Charter  sci.philosophy.objectivism	for those who grasp that philosophy is 	a science and are interested in studying Ayn Rand's philosophy 	of Objectivism.  The primary content is intended to be 	reasoned analysis of philosophic principles (and their 	applications) based on facts of reality.  This current posting (in total) comprises a longer explanation of the charter.  Note that the word "primarily" allows the contributions of announcements, publications, classes, club meetings and such as long as they are interesting to people studying Objectivism.  It also allows the derivative use by honest, polite, serious folks who are not studying it but may want to learn more about Objectivism.  3.  Quality  Several things will help SPO achieve the quality its founders desire.  a)  The precise wording of the charter above should be used in Gene Spafford's list of newsgroups.  b)  This notice will be posted monthly.  c)  Guidelines that rational people should follow to attenuate noise of irrational posters will be posted periodically.  d)  Style guidelines arrived at within the newsgroup will be posted periodically.  e)  Guidelines for expressing disagreement will be posted periodically.  f)  The only action needed by system administrators should be to prevent the only way someone can initiate (indirect) force; i.e., they need to remove USENET privileges of those who fraudently associate their words with the signatures of others.  DISCLAIMER:  the intent of this group is not to represent Objectivism but to provide a forum for studying it.  RWS  2/17/90 --  Bob Stubblefield att!houxa!bobs 201-949-2846                   [email protected]   From [email protected] Tue Feb 18 00:33:17 1992 Flags: 000000000201 Path: cbnewsh!rws From: [email protected] (r.w.stubblefield) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups Subject: RESULTS:  sci.philosophy.objectivism Date: 10 Mar 90 02:24:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 422 Keywords: posted    Almost 400 people took the time to express their opinion about creating sci.philosophy.objectivism for discussion among people who have a serious interest the philosophy of Objectivism.  The vote was opposed to such a group by 174 to 221.  Those in favor are listed first; those opposed, afterwards.  Since SPO was voted down, I will continue to use sci.philosophy.tech for my twice weekly philosophical questions and answers-- until I have a better alternative.  Many of the no voters indicated they would have voted yes for a group in another hierarchy, usually mentioning talk.  Some objected to labeling philosophy in general and Objectivism in particular as science.  Others were concerned about the amount of traffic that might be generated.  I wonder if some of the no voters would support me in an effort to create SPO as a moderated group with me as a moderator.  If anyone has something polite to say to me about this, please drop me some e-mail.  Bob Stubblefield     [email protected]  =====Voters in favor of sci.philosophy.tech for serious discussion====== Abbott, J. D. [email protected] Aden, Spenser news%[email protected] Aiken, Wayne [email protected] Albini, Marty [email protected] Andrews, Norm mtgzy!norm Ansell, Steve [email protected] Atkins, Tim redwood!tma Atwell, Shane atwell%[email protected] Bai, Dov [email protected] Bailey, Steve ([email protected]) Baur, Steven L. [email protected] Baxter, L. A. mtgzx!lab Beusterien, Paul [email protected] Blenko, Tom [email protected] Boardman, Andrew [email protected] Bombardier, David [email protected] Brumitt, Barry Lowell [email protected] Buksas, Michael W. [email protected] CCO1376%[email protected] Carballal, David J. att!houxa.att.com!carball Cate, Vincent  [email protected] Cederlund, Jakob [email protected] Chen, Ed [email protected] Cherepov, Mike [email protected] Cline, Nicholas [email protected] Close, Carl 6500clos%[email protected] Cook, Thomas E. [email protected] Copps, Kevin KDC8199%[email protected] Corvini, Pat 6500pjc%[email protected] Cunningham, Paula [email protected] D'Eramo, Daniel V. [email protected] Danielsson, Per [email protected] Dave, Mehul [email protected] DeBues, Ingrid [email protected] Dempsey, Richard C. [email protected] Deshpande, J. G. jayant!houxa!att.com Deshpande, Shekhar [email protected] Dietz, Dave [email protected] Dixon, Bill [email protected] Dominiak, Rich [email protected] Donaldson, Stephen R. [email protected] Downes, Tom [email protected] Drake, Dan [email protected] Eisenberg, Martin homxa!5132me Falkowitz, M lzfme!mff Foster, Brad [email protected] Francis, Joe [email protected] Franzen, Torkel [email protected] Garmong, Robert [email protected] Gettys, Stephanie [email protected] Ghattas, Jihad [email protected] Glynn, Joe att!ihlpl!fjglynn Gordon, Jon GORJONE%[email protected] Gramstad, Thomas m_gramstad_t%[email protected] Guliani, Gautam [email protected] Guttman, Joshua D. [email protected] Haight, Kyle ha1003%[email protected] Hamilton, Bruce [email protected] Harris, Joe [email protected] Haspel, Charles H. [email protected] Henkel, Chuck henkel%[email protected] Higgins, Andrew [email protected] Hildebrandt, C. H. nvuxf!chh Hurlburt, Evan [email protected] Ilson, Richard uunet!leafusa!io!bronx!ri [email protected] JKGREE01%[email protected] Jackson, Michael [email protected] Janwich, R. R. mtgzy!rrj Juthani, Nitin H. njh%[email protected] Kalin, Eric attmail!ekalin Kaminski, Steve [email protected] Karp, Bennett erebus!bck Keves, Brian keves%[email protected] Killick, R. H. mtgxx!raykl King, Dick [email protected] Knapp, Shoshana DASHIELL%[email protected] Kolesar, P. F. mtgzy!pfk Korzeniewski, Frank [email protected] Kumar, Praveen [email protected] Kyriazis, George [email protected] LORETI <@vms.macc.wisc.edu:[email protected]> Laing, B. lzfme!bgl Lanziner, Mark [email protected] Larson, Ed [email protected] Laughlin, Erik Albert [email protected] Leach, Geoffrey sun!apple!tolsoft!geoff Leach, Paul [email protected] Liao, M [email protected]!att.com Lidl, Kurt [email protected] MMay, Patrick [email protected] Mantri, Pam [email protected] Matula, Richard A. mhuxd!matula McCaskey, John P. [email protected] McKendree, Alan [email protected] Meertens, Lambert [email protected] Mingle, E. L. mtgzz!manny Nanney, J. nanney%[email protected] Nienhuis, Charlene [email protected] Odegard, Frode [email protected] Ormen, Torfinn [email protected] Orr, Michael sun!nsc!taux01.nsc.com!orr PMH0232%[email protected] Peercy, Mark [email protected] Peterson, David peterson%[email protected] Pilz, Gil [email protected] Polhemus, Jeffrey J. houxa!peej Pratt @vms.macc.wisc.edu:[email protected] Presting, Ken [email protected] Pye, Deborah homxc!pye REM%[email protected] Ragazzini, Lynne [email protected] Rangnekar, Shrikant uunet!microsoft!shrikant Renninger, R. mhuxo!rgr Rhee, Jinny [email protected] Robinson, Sherry [email protected] Roeth  @vms.macc.wisc.edu:[email protected] Ross, David S. [email protected] Russotto, Matthew T. [email protected] [email protected] Sacks, Alexei [email protected] Sama, Rob [email protected] Schantz, Hans [email protected] Schein, Dinah B. [email protected] Seiler, Frederick M. [email protected] Shariff, M. A. mtgzy!mas Siebes, Arno [email protected] Simms, John [email protected] Simpson, Mike [email protected] Small, Jeffery [email protected] Smith, C. M. [email protected] Smith, Josh JBS92%[email protected] Southern, S. L. [email protected] Stata, Raymie [email protected] Steele, Jeri [email protected] Stefanovics, P. [email protected] Stephens, Catherine [email protected] Stewart, Jodi dsac!huf4589 Stubblefield, Bob [email protected] Tarvainen, Tapani [email protected] Thomas, Gary [email protected] Thomas, John [email protected] Toy, Mehmet [email protected] Tracinski, Robert [email protected] Trent, Adam [email protected] Turpin, Russell [email protected] Van Ness, Alan C. [email protected] Vu, K. mtgzy!kv Weiner, Keith I. [email protected] Welsh, J. A. mtgzy!jaw Wiehle, Kurt [email protected] Woodcock, Bruce S. [email protected] Wright, Steven [email protected] Wrycza, John att!ihlpl!johnw Yoder, B. [email protected] Zubkoff, Leonard N. [email protected] [email protected] cae.wisc.edu!rogerr [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] ncr-sd!ncr-fc!jeffc ncrclm.Clemson.NCR.COM!lsnow [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] vishy [email protected] wickre%[email protected]  ====Voters against SPT for serious discussion of Objectivism===== Adams, Clifford [email protected] Adrian, Frank A [email protected] Allen, Geoff [email protected] Almquist, Kenneth [email protected] Anderson, Pat [email protected] Asheim, Dag [email protected] Ault, Jim [email protected] Austern, Matthew [email protected] [email protected] Barnett, David [email protected] Bartkus, Patrick [email protected] Bedno, David [email protected] Bera, Krishna E. [email protected] [email protected] Betz, Tom [email protected] Brader, Mark [email protected] Brenner, Joseph [email protected] Brown, Dwight [email protected] Buck, Joe [email protected] Budnik, Paul uunet!mtnmath!paul Bunjiovianna, Charleen sun!ads.com!charleen Campbell, Michael P [email protected] Carlton, David carlton%[email protected] Carpenter, Jeffrey James Bryan [email protected] Carruth, Rusty [email protected] Carson, Reid pyrdc!eliot!reidc Carter, Tom [email protected] Chibnik, Mara [email protected] Conrad, Eric econrad%[email protected] Cook, Dale C. [email protected] Crider, Allen claris!wet!capslock D'Arcy, J. M. Cain [email protected] Daiell, Jeff uunet!ficc!jeffd Dalton, Jeff jeff%[email protected] Davis, Christopher ckd%[email protected] Davis, Dave daved%[email protected] Davisson, Gordon [email protected] Dawar, Anuj [email protected] DeVaughn, Kim E. [email protected] DeVoto, Jeanne A. E. [email protected] Delaney, John R. [email protected] Deter, Matthew 6600mld%[email protected] Diaz, Jean Marie [email protected] Dietz, Paul [email protected] Doehne, Tom [email protected] Dolan, Kent Paul [email protected] Dominus, Mark-Jason [email protected] Dorsett, Robert [email protected] Dunn, Ray [email protected] Dupuy, Alexander [email protected] Elmore, Brad E. [email protected] Erlebacher, Beverly [email protected] Fenske, Robert Jr [email protected] Fitch, Gordon [email protected] Fitzgerald, Tom [email protected] Fraser S. [email protected] Gall, Norm [email protected] Gilham, Fred [email protected] Glass, Frank fsg%[email protected] Gold, Mitchell E. [email protected] Graham, Paul [email protected] Grantham, Jon [email protected] Gutekunst, Carl S. [email protected] Hale, Roger [email protected] Hall, Ed [email protected] Haugh, John F. II [email protected] Hawkins, David dhawk%[email protected] Henize, Dewey texbell!sequoia!cedar!dewey Hennessy, Greg S. [email protected] Heston, Gary [email protected] Heuer, Karl [email protected] Horne, Jim [email protected] Howard, Nathaniel [email protected] Hubley, Craig [email protected] Hudson, Paul [email protected] Hughes, Christopher J. [email protected] Hughes, Eric [email protected] Huttel, Hans [email protected] Jacquot, Steve [email protected] Jarocha-Ernst, Chris [email protected] Jewell, Christopher [email protected] Johnson, Rod [email protected] Jones, Dave sun!megatest!soleil.djones Jones, Llewellyn att!ll1a!cej Jones, Mike [email protected] Joslin, D. [email protected] Kamlet, Arthur S. [email protected] Kaul, Rich [email protected] Kelsey, Toby [email protected] Kirk, Laura [email protected] Koch, C. Harald [email protected]@csri.utoronto.ca Konstantas, Dimitri [email protected] Lancaster, Frank [email protected] Latto, Andy [email protected] Leadley, Scott [email protected] Leibovitch, Evan [email protected] Levene, Robert A. [email protected] Levin, Joel B. [email protected] Lindahl, Greg [email protected] Lindahl, Svante [email protected] Lippe, Ernst [email protected] MacMillan, John R. [email protected] Mack, Dave [email protected] Maroney, Tim [email protected] Masco, Todd L. [email protected] Mason, Jim [email protected] Mathisen, Jaye [email protected] Maynard, Jay [email protected] McComb, Todd [email protected] Mech, Paul J. [email protected] Meldal, Sigurd [email protected] Merrill, John [email protected] Mesard, Wayne [email protected] Miller, Richard H. [email protected] Mladenovic, Malcolm [email protected] Mladenovic, Malcolm [email protected] Morrison, Brad morrison%[email protected] Naggum, Erik [email protected] Nauta, Rob J. [email protected] Newell, Donald uunet!sequent!newell Nowak, Greg [email protected] O'Neal, Miles meo%[email protected] Ockerbloom, John [email protected] Oliver, Bill [email protected] Olson, Arthur David [email protected] Oplinger, B. S. [email protected] Panon, Paul-Andre [email protected] Paris, Greg [email protected] Peck, Rodney II [email protected] Peirce, Leonard [email protected] Peters, Frank W. [email protected] Peterson, Eric J [email protected] Phillips, George [email protected] Pickering, Jim jrp%rducky%csufres%[email protected]@uwm.uucp Pike, Tod [email protected] Poirier, Joseph mentor.cc.purdue.edu!ach Popelka, Glenn [email protected] Ramsey, Tim [email protected] Readwin, Neil [email protected] Reichardt, Ted [email protected] Reiner, Richard [email protected] Reinhold, Mark [email protected] Ridgway, S. Alexander [email protected] Riiali, Pekka [email protected] Ringuette, Marc [email protected] Roche, Jim [email protected] Rodrigues-Bell, Ted [email protected] Rosenthal, Chip [email protected] [email protected] Salz, Rich [email protected] Salzenberg, Chip chip%[email protected] Sand, Paul A. uunet!unhd!pas Sanio, E sinix!es%[email protected] Schinder, Paul [email protected].TN.CORNELL.EDU Schlatter, Mark [email protected] Schlitt, Dan [email protected] Schlitt, Wayne [email protected] Schorn, Peter [email protected] Shafer Mary [email protected] Simicich, Nicholas J. uunet!bywater!scifi!njs Simmons, Steve [email protected] Sloane, Bob [email protected] Smith, Gene W. [email protected] Sneed, William A. uunet!.robec!pyrdc!William.A.Sneed Sommarskog, Erland [email protected] Sommerfeld, Bill [email protected] Spafford, Gene [email protected] Stern, Ilana [email protected] Stewart, William Clare [email protected] Sullivan, Michael T. [email protected] Tang, Roger [email protected] Tobin, Richard [email protected] Tombre, Karl [email protected] Torek, Paul V. [email protected] Troost, Rens [email protected] Tse, Gary [email protected] Valentino, Karen [email protected] Van Cleave, Dirk Howard [email protected] VanFosson, Timothy [email protected] Vaughan, George S. 6500gsv%[email protected] Veditz, Dan [email protected] Vixie, Paul A. [email protected] Vogel, J. [email protected] Wang, Joe [email protected] Ward, Craig E. [email protected] Warinner, Andy uunet!tasha!andy Wartell, Matt S. [email protected] Watt, Steve sun!claris!wattres!steve Weissman, Bob [email protected] Wells, T. William [email protected] Welty, Richard [email protected] Weston, T. weston%[email protected] Williams, Roger [email protected] Wilson, Tom [email protected] Wisner, Bill [email protected] Woods, John decuac!frog!john Wootton, Steven L [email protected] Wright, David [email protected] Yalow, Ben [email protected] Yarvin, Norman [email protected] York, Jeremy [email protected] Zimmerman, Karl [email protected] Zola, W. Paul [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] kgd%[email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] sco!tonyj texbell!sugar!ficc!birwin [email protected] uunet!uunet!mrmarx!chico!kr [email protected] --  Bob Stubblefield att!houxa!bobs 201-949-2846                   [email protected]