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From [email protected] Wed Jan 13 17:44:13 1993 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: Robert Dorsett <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc Subject: RFD: sci.aeronautics moderation Followup-To: news.groups Date: 9 Jan 1993 13:27:18 -0500 Organization: ics.utexas.edu Lines: 159 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3102 news.groups:64121 sci.aeronautics:5441 sci.aeronautics.airliners:250 sci.military:25443 sci.engr.control:409 sci.engr.mech:733 sci.physics:44535 rec.aviation.misc:1257 rec.models.rc:12461  This is a proposal to change the status of sci.aeronautics to that of a moderated group.  History  -------  Sci.aeronautics was created in mid-1989.  It was chartered to serve as a discussion-group on aerodynamics, structures, propulsion, and human factors.  The term "aeronautics," which is somewhat archaic, was explicity chosen to give it a broad, "technological" feel, rather than a specific disciplinary one.  It was created before the sci.engr hierarchy was established.  Sci.aeronautics was created with sci.military in mind.  Sci.military was one of the first "high-quality," non-comp groups.  With the detailed professional and amateur knowledge there, and the discussions, which often went into much more detail on fighter aerodynamics than ever existed on rec.aviation, it was reasonable to assume that the time was ripe for a dedicated aero group.  There was concern during that RFD that the group should be moderated, in order to control noise.  After much debate, the group was offered as unmoderated.  During the first year and a half sci.aeronautics worked out very well.   The Problem  -----------  During the original RFD, Eugene Miya made a comment that he'd support the group, but that it would be a failure, for the simple reason that few professional aero types would post in public.  There are many reasons for this, ranging from fears of giving other countries or companies the slightest edge, to fears of professional embarassment. But the point is, by and large, he's been RIGHT: only a few, particularly outspoken people comment in public.  The rest are "lurkers." Despite this handicap, in the first year, the group did  well.  Since late 1990, however, the group has become increasingly "noisy." Threads such as a 50-post burst this year, on whether George Bush actually rode in an SR-71 during the 1980 Presidential campaign, exemplify this.  Posts and questions have tended to be less specific, and more "trivia-based."  All of this has been alienating long-time users, including many aero professionals and students, who had early on been frequent contributors.  During the discussion period for the rec.aviation re-organization and the airliners sub-group, I received many comments >from people who said they had unsubscribed from sci.aero, because it had simply become unreadable: a waste of their time.  Even in public, people occasionally post messages asking legitimate questions or seeking to discuss issues, but prefacing their posts with apologies if such posts are *inappropriate*, since so much of the regular traffic is off-base.  In a sci group, I think we expect a certain standard.  "Naive" questions have an honored place in the group, but when the entire group becomes an "oracle," a Q&A session, which presupposes enough people will be out there to play "oracle," (and I suspect there aren't), something is lost.  It becomes a so-so information resource, rather than a discussion-group, which was what it was originally intended to be.  We don't need to be "professionals" to discuss this stuff seriously: but  a certain "ambience" must be maintained, so as not to *discourage* people  >from taking the group seriously.  It was the lack of this "ambience," I believe, which induced Geoff Peck to offer his *rec* theory group, during the rec.aviation re-organization, this summer.   Possible Solutions  ------------------  How do we "fix" the problem?  Several options:  1.  The most simple, straightforward way is to get people to post more seriously, try to get discussions started.  Very difficult to get this to work.  2.  Issue "netiquette" style posts, including the group's charter, on a frequent basis.  This could work, but these tend to rub people (including myself) the wrong way: too dictatorial.  3.  Create a "theory" group within sci.aeronautics, which would be moderated, and a "regular" group, which wouldn't.  The main problem I have with this is charters: the current charter for sci.aero is quite "theoretical" as it is, and it's difficult to envision a "misc" category, "none of the above."  In my opinion, sub-groups should be case studies (e.g., airliners), or specialties (CFD, GPS), based on the charter.  4.  Do nothing.  Hope the recent "unevenness" is a temporary thing, and go on with life.  The problem is, I (and others) have been waiting for things to straighten out since at least the summer of 1991, and they haven't.  The situation has gotten much worse since the Bush thread this summer.  5.  Change the main group to a moderated status.  This is probably the "best" way to deal with the problem: it ensures that completely inappropriate posts get redirected to where they belong (e.g., fighter-tactics on sci.military, airliners on sci.aeronautics.airliners,  general aviation flying questions to rec.aviation).  More importantly,  though, it would cut down on repetition, and, hopefully, ensure that  message-thread "morphism" be reflected by more appropriate Subject:  headers.   Would moderation tend to eliminate all "naive" posts?  I don't think so, with sci.aeronautics.airliners as a good example: Karl Swartz has been rejecting about 20-25% of submissions, but the resulting group has been a good balance of discussion, theory, and "nice to know" traffic.    The key here is to maintain the relevance of all accepted posts, and to help  maintain a high signal by eliminating repetitiousness or polemic.    Is moderation desirable in sci.aero's case?  I think it is.  The purpose of this RFD is to discuss whether to create a theory group, or attempt to remove the main group, and replace it with a new, moderated group.  I'm open to suggestions.  But I would like to make clear that I'm not necessarily seeking to create a "scholarly" group.  My intent is to return it to at least its early form, where both "amateurs" and "pros" alike seemed to take it a bit more seriously.  I would also emphasize that it remains a popular group with many people, and that the changes are not intended to alienate them: merely to involve more qualified people  in the group, which will be for the benefit of all concerned.  The  airliners group is a good example of what is possible: consider the  explosion of relevant, informal posts from people with industry exper- ience at Boeing and Honeywell: many of these were lurkers on sci.aero,  but never participated.  There is a wealth of human experience out there: with the right forum, I believe people are more likely to participate.   Mary Shafer has agreed to serve as moderator.  My role would be to serve as  an "administrative" moderator; I could also serve as a backup moderator, if needed.  If additional moderators should be necessary, to cope with traffic  load, personal vacations, burn-out, machine problems, etc., they could be added as needed.      If, within 30 days, it is still felt that there is a need to change the  group, and there's a consensus on which changes are necessary, I will  issue a call-for-votes.  To minimize "procedural" bickering, this proposal will take the form of the complete new newsgroup voting process, including a standard-length RFD and CFV, and will be subject to the rules in David Lawrence's guidelines (November 30th revision).  There are no univerally accepted rules on changing a newsgroup's status, so this seems the best way to proceed.  Please direct ALL follow-ups to news.groups, as per creation guidelines. --  Robert Dorsett Internet: [email protected] UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!rdd  From [email protected] Tue Feb 23 23:39:53 1993 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics Subject: CFV: moderating sci.aeronautics Followup-To: poster Date: 23 Feb 1993 14:38:55 -0500 Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx Lines: 90 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected], [email protected], 	[email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3273 news.groups:67296 sci.aeronautics:5778 sci.aeronautics.airliners:403 sci.military:26658 rec.aviation.misc:2008 rec.models.rc:13332 sci.engr.control:549 sci.engr.mech:989 sci.physics:47265  After some consideration, we are proceeding with the vote to turn  sci.aeronautics into a moderated group.  The group's proposed new charter is:      A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,     specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,     structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.  The thematic moderator will be Mary Shafer, with myself serving as an "administrative" moderator.  The group won't be fixed around any specific personality: for example, if Mary finds her time is in short  supply, or experiences connectivity problems, other moderators could be added.   The group will also be made available as a mailing list for users  without usenet access.  This will complement the airliners mailing  list, which will be established shortly.  The group traffic will be archived on rascal.ics.utexas.edu.  The Aeronautics Digest, which has been around since the original group was created, will be discontinued, replaced with the mailing list, resulting in a more interactive, spontaneous forum for those without usenet access.  To vote in FAVOR of the proposal, send a message to:     [email protected] with a Subject: of "Yes.  I vote for the moderation proposal."  To vote AGAINST the proposal, send a message to:     [email protected] with a Subject: of "No.  I vote against the moderation proposal."  All votes must be received between 0000 CST (GMT-6) on February 23, 1993, and 2359 CST March 16, 1993 in order to be counted.  No votes posted on any newsgroup will be counted.  The results of the vote will be posted by March 23, 1993.  If the proposal passes, the group will be created after a  suitable waiting period.  If the proposal fails, sci.aeronautics will be unchanged.  DISCUSSION  One question some may ask is why we're proceeding, especially since the group has significantly improved since the RFD was issued last month.  The basic problems are the same ones that produced the RFD: the fact that, for a very long time, the group had gotten extremely noisy, with a large number of posts of marginal relevance and/or low signal.    A more recent problem is the conflict potential with  sci.aeronautics.airliners, as people continue to post questions to  the "main group" without apparently being aware of the sub-group.  This will result in repetition of traffic, as we've seen recently, with the RFI thread, for example, being *independently* discussed in  sci.aeronautics.airliners, comp.risks, rec.aviation.misc, AND  sci.aeronautics: this is clearly a waste of net band-width.  Support was strong during the RFD period, with no expressed opposition.  The objective of moderation, in this case, is to ensure relevance and conciseness of posts.  It is not a volume-control measure: only to ensure that the posts deal with at least some semblance of the group charter (and not, for instance, serve as a mirror of rec.aviation), and that those messages which are inappropriate will be filtered and  re-routed.  Last summer's "Bush in an SR-71" thread provides a sterling  example of why this is needed: four weeks of posts debating whether  an SR-71 even had a capability of carrying two crewmembers--nothing  else--with apparently nobody wishing to look it up in a standard  reference, and, indeed, dragging on for so long that when someone  finally did do so it only seemed like more speculation.  These posts  had a mind-numbing effect on the group, worsening the S:N ratio for  over six months.  The objective of moderation isn't to turn this into a pure-academic wasteland, nor to eliminate naive posts: only to ensure consistency and quality in the traffic that is ultimately posted, thus easing the wear on  your "n" key, and allowing you, the user, to better utilize your time. We  hope this will encourage more *discussion*, getting away from the  "oracle" based approach which has characterized it for much of the  last year and a half.  The only change that you, the user, will encounter, is that you won't  be able to see your post the minute you send it: it will have to be  processed, which could take up to 24 hours.  But since many people  don't read news daily, and many sites can take up to two weeks to  receive "current" traffic, this shouldn't be a major problem in terms  of the evolution of discussions.  Therefore, in the broader picture, the group should work much the same, except, hopefully, it'll be better: more consistent, and more informative. --  Robert Dorsett [email protected] ...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd  From [email protected] Thu Mar 11 11:35:05 1993 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics Subject: 2nd CFV and VOTE ACK: moderating sci.aeronautics Followup-To: poster Date: 11 Mar 1993 01:38:25 -0500 Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx Lines: 267 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected], [email protected], 	[email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3345 news.groups:67885 sci.aeronautics:5883 sci.aeronautics.airliners:447 sci.military:26998 rec.aviation.misc:2382 rec.models.rc:13672 sci.engr.control:619 sci.engr.mech:1070 sci.physics:48264  This is the second and final call-for-votes for the sci.aeronautics  retro-moderation.  Following the text of the CFV is a list of all replies received thus far.  I have also attempted to acknowledge each vote  individually.  ---------------------  After some consideration, we are proceeding with the vote to turn  sci.aeronautics into a moderated group.  The group's proposed new charter is:      A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,     specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,     structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.  The thematic moderator will be Mary Shafer, with myself serving as an "administrative" moderator.  The group won't be fixed around any specific personality: for example, if Mary finds her time is in short  supply, or experiences connectivity problems, other moderators could be added.   The group will also be made available as a mailing list for users  without usenet access.  This will complement the airliners mailing  list, which will be established shortly.  The group traffic will be archived on rascal.ics.utexas.edu.  The Aeronautics Digest, which has been around since the original group was created, will be discontinued, replaced with the mailing list, resulting in a more interactive, spontaneous forum for those without usenet access.  To vote in FAVOR of the proposal, send a message to:     [email protected] with a Subject: of "Yes.  I vote for the moderation proposal."  To vote AGAINST the proposal, send a message to:     [email protected] with a Subject: of "No.  I vote against the moderation proposal."  All votes must be received between 0000 CST (GMT-6) on February 23, 1993, and 2359 CST March 16, 1993 in order to be counted.  No votes posted on any newsgroup will be counted.  The results of the vote will be posted by March 23, 1993.  If the proposal passes, the group will be created after a  suitable waiting period.  If the proposal fails, sci.aeronautics will be unchanged.  DISCUSSION  One question some may ask is why we're proceeding, especially since the group has significantly improved since the RFD was issued last month.  The basic problems are the same ones that produced the RFD: the fact that, for a very long time, the group had gotten extremely noisy, with a large number of posts of marginal relevance and/or low signal.    A more recent problem is the conflict potential with  sci.aeronautics.airliners, as people continue to post questions to  the "main group" without apparently being aware of the sub-group.  This will result in repetition of traffic, as we've seen recently, with the RFI thread, for example, being *independently* discussed in  sci.aeronautics.airliners, comp.risks, rec.aviation.misc, AND  sci.aeronautics: this is clearly a waste of net band-width.  The objective of moderation, in this case, is to ensure relevance and conciseness of posts.  It is not a volume-control measure: only to ensure that the posts deal with at least some semblance of the group charter (and not, for instance, serve as a mirror of rec.aviation), and that those messages which are inappropriate will be filtered and  re-routed.  Last summer's "Bush in an SR-71" thread provides a sterling  example of why this is needed: four weeks of posts debating whether  an SR-71 even had a capability of carrying two crewmembers--nothing  else--with apparently nobody wishing to look it up in a standard  reference, and, indeed, dragging on for so long that when someone  finally did do so it only seemed like more speculation.  These posts  had a mind-numbing effect on the group, worsening the S:N ratio for  over six months.  The objective of moderation isn't to turn this into a pure-academic wasteland, nor to eliminate naive posts: only to ensure consistency and quality in the traffic that is ultimately posted, thus easing the wear on  your "n" key, and allowing you, the user, to better utilize your time. We  hope this will encourage more *discussion*, getting away from the  "oracle" based approach which has characterized it for much of the  last year and a half.  The only change that you, the user, will encounter, is that you won't  be able to see your post the minute you send it: it will have to be  processed, which could take up to 24 hours.  But since many people  don't read news daily, and many sites can take up to two weeks to  receive "current" traffic, this shouldn't be a major problem in terms  of the evolution of discussions.  Therefore, in the broader picture, the group should work much the same, except, hopefully, it'll be better: more consistent, and more informative. --  Robert Dorsett [email protected] ...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd  -------------------------  "Chris J. Davis" <[email protected]> "Cook, Layne" <[email protected]> "David A. Platz" <[email protected]> "Gautam Shah" [email protected]> "Greg Rose" <[email protected]> "J. S. Bullock" <"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com> "Leo WaiChung So" <[email protected]> "PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)" <[email protected]> "Patrick M. Chaney" <[email protected]> "Robert P. David" <[email protected]> "Shamim Zvonko Mohamed" <[email protected]> "Thomas D Gasser-1" <[email protected]> (Thomas D.Gasser) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] Aron Eisenpress <[email protected]> Art Medlar <[email protected]> Barney Lum <[email protected]> Bill Hunter <[email protected]> Bill Sisson <[email protected]> Bittner <[email protected]> Bob Jacobsen <[email protected]> Bruce Watson <[email protected]> Bryan Stearns <[email protected]> Christopher Davis <[email protected]> Dale Ollila <[email protected]> David Doshay <[email protected]> David Murphy <[email protected]> David Reeve Sward <[email protected]> David Sansom <[email protected]> Del Armstrong <[email protected]> [email protected] (Ron Graham) [email protected] (Fred Lloyd [Phoenix SE]) Greg Lindahl <[email protected]> Hoover Chan <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] Jan Mattsson  <[email protected]> Jan Willem Hubbers <[email protected]> Jay Vassos-Libove <[email protected]> Kermit Carlson <[email protected]> [email protected] (Kit Linder) Lloyd D Reid <[email protected]> Lorcan Mongey <[email protected]> Luke Whitaker <[email protected]> Mark Flanagan <[email protected]> Matthew Stahl <[email protected]> Matti E Hy|tyniemi <[email protected]> Michael R. Jones  <[email protected]> [email protected] Olin Perry Norton <[email protected]> Olivier PLAUT <[email protected]> Original-nak  Pete Mellor <[email protected]> Peter Johannes <[email protected]> Phil Irvine <[email protected]> Prasad V. N. Gade <[email protected]> [email protected] Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram <[email protected]> Raymond Man <[email protected]> Robert Byron Lowrie <[email protected]> [email protected] Roland Kaltefleiter <[email protected]> [email protected] Scott Stanford <[email protected]> Simo S{teri <[email protected]> Simon Breeze <[email protected]> Sparky <[email protected]> Stephan Wenger <[email protected]> Steve Robinson <[email protected]> Terry Ghee <[email protected]> Thomas Netter <[email protected]> Tony Heatwole <[email protected]> Werner Uhrig <[email protected]> William R. Sauerwald  <[email protected]> [email protected] (Steve Altus) [email protected] (Andrew Finkenstadt) [email protected] (Maurizio Barbato) [email protected] (Mark Barnett) [email protected] [email protected] (Mfg. Board Test) [email protected] (G. Beagles) [email protected] (Fernando Biagioli) [email protected] (William Hawkins) bolo/Joe Burger <[email protected]> [email protected] (Brett Hoffstadt) [email protected] (Paul Kennedy) [email protected] (Jan Brittenson) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Dave Goodman) [email protected] (David Whitaker) [email protected] (Doug Bloomberg) [email protected] (Tom Dickinson) [email protected] (Diego Garcia) [email protected] (Darrell Kachilla) [email protected] (Eugene N. Miya) [email protected] (Stephen Fenwick) [email protected] [email protected] (James Michael Sambrook) [email protected] (Greg B Titus) [email protected] (Gerry Dowling x3188) [email protected] (Gero Kuhlmann) [email protected] (Gregory G. Woodbury) [email protected] (Gary L. Cole) [email protected] (Leland Guyer) [email protected] [email protected] (Jan Isley) [email protected] (John Duncan) [email protected] (Jeff C. Glover) [email protected] (Joel Furr) [email protected] (Letricia Ogutu) [email protected] (Jeanny Lien) [email protected] (Jonathan Thornburg) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Ken Stox) [email protected] [email protected] (Chris Lopez) [email protected] (Mark A. Matthews) [email protected] (Mark Gonzales) [email protected] (Matthew DeLuca) [email protected] (Mark Atwood) [email protected] [email protected] (Chris Metzler) [email protected] (Mike Hatz) [email protected] (Allen Miller) [email protected] (Mark Brader) [email protected] (Mike Smith x3297) [email protected] (Michael C. Tanner) [email protected] (William Johnson) [email protected] [email protected] (Jeff Nanis) [email protected] (Anthony Nasr) [email protected] (Noah Cole) [email protected] (Bruce O'Neel) [email protected] (Padraig Houlahan) [email protected] (Stefano Paraboschi) [email protected] (Patrick Bryant) [email protected] (Philip D Bridges) [email protected] (Patrick Ferrell) [email protected] (Peter J. Hicks) [email protected] [email protected] (Dan Whipple) [email protected] (Richard A Hyde  [email protected]) [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) [email protected] (Richard H. Miller) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Sandra Wade) [email protected] [email protected] (Aaron Sawdey) [email protected] (John M. Pearce) [email protected] (Mary Shafer) [email protected] (Civ Daniel G. Sharpes) [email protected] (Don Stuart) [email protected] (Jerry Szopinski Mfg 4-6983) [email protected] [email protected] (Chris Miller) [email protected] (Tony Movshon) [email protected] (Stephen C. Trier) [email protected] (Taylor Tsai (PME G813727) TEL. 715131-4870) [email protected] [email protected] (Vic Vaivads) [email protected] (Vance Kochenderfer) [email protected] (Norman Yarvin) [email protected] (Jim Diamond)  From [email protected] Mon Mar 29 20:41:01 1993 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics.airliners,sci.military,rec.aviation.misc,rec.models.rc,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.mech,sci.physics Subject: RESULT: sci.aeronautics moderation passes 177:49 Followup-To: news.groups Date: 26 Mar 1993 11:09:43 -0500 Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx Lines: 283 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:3390 news.groups:68549 sci.aeronautics:6017 sci.aeronautics.airliners:495 sci.military:27421 rec.aviation.misc:2796 rec.models.rc:13893 sci.engr.control:653 sci.engr.mech:1141 sci.physics:49669  The vote to moderate sci.aeronautics has passed, 177:49.  This gives  the yesses a 128-vote and 78% margin, which satisfies both criteria for  newsgroup creation.  The new charter for the group is:      A moderated discussion-group dealing with atmospheric flight,     specifically: aerodynamics, flying qualities, simulation,     structures, systems, propulsion, and design human factors.  The thematic moderator is Mary Shafer: she's the one who will approve and post messages.  I will be performing maintenance tasks, which  amounts to tending to the group aliases, mailing list, and archive.  A mailing list, which will be a 1:1 echo of the moderated group, will be available.  This will replace the Aeronautics Digest, which I've  been running since the original group was created in 1989.  The mailing list will be officially available after April 1.  The submission-address for both the mailing list and the group is: 	[email protected]  The administrivia address is: 	[email protected] 	 Mailing list business should be directed to:  	[email protected] 	 Archives will be available via anonymous ftp on rascal.ics.utexas.edu  (128.83.138.20), in misc/av/sci-aeronautics-folder.  Please note that there are now two groups in the sci.aeronautics  hierarchy: the main group, and an airliners group.  The airliners group  was not affected by this vote.  The airliners group is moderated by Karl  Swartz, [email protected], with traffic archived on  rascal.ics.utexas.edu and ftp.eff.org.  For reference, that group's  charter is:     A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories of    transport-category aircraft.  My thanks to everyone who voted.  Following a suitable delay, the changes  will take effect.  --  Robert Dorsett [email protected] ...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd  -------------------------  The nays:  "Cook, Layne" <[email protected]> "David A. Platz" <[email protected]> "Leo WaiChung So" <[email protected]> "Patrick M. Chaney" <[email protected]> "Robert P. David" <[email protected]> [email protected] Bruce Watson <[email protected]> David Detienne <[email protected]> [email protected] (Ron Graham) [email protected] (Fred Lloyd [Phoenix SE]) [email protected] [email protected] Joe Benning <[email protected]> Lorcan Mongey <[email protected]> Louis Bolduc <[email protected]> Marc Ramsey <[email protected]> Mark Flanagan <[email protected]> Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram <[email protected]> Raymond Man <[email protected]> [email protected] Stephen Lau <[email protected]> Steve Robinson <[email protected]> Terry Ghee <[email protected]> Todd Weaver <[email protected]> William R. Sauerwald  <[email protected]> [email protected] (Ross Smith) [email protected] (Mfg. Board Test) [email protected] (Berk Walker) [email protected] (Al Bowers) [email protected] [email protected] (Randy Vice) [email protected] (Dave Cline) [email protected] (David Whitaker) [email protected] (Gerry Dowling x3188) [email protected] (Greg Lyon) [email protected] [email protected] (James  Blake) [email protected] (John Duncan) [email protected] (Jeff C. Glover) [email protected] (Jeanny Lien) [email protected] [email protected] (Matthew DeLuca) [email protected] [email protected] (Noah Cole) [email protected] (Peter J. Hicks) [email protected] (Sandra Wade) [email protected] (Jerry Szopinski Mfg 4-6983) [email protected] (Gregory Scott Vernon) [email protected] (Vance Kochenderfer)       Yesses:  "Andy Turudic" <[email protected]> "Chris J. Davis" <[email protected]> "Gautam Shah" [email protected]> "Greg Rose" <[email protected]> "J. S. Bullock" <"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com> "PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)" <[email protected]> "Shamim Zvonko Mohamed" <[email protected]> "Thomas D Gasser-1" <[email protected]> (Thomas D.Gasser) [email protected] [email protected] Aron Eisenpress <[email protected]> Art Medlar <[email protected]> Ashish Nedungadi <[email protected]> B Bikowicz <[email protected]> Barney Lum <[email protected]> Bertil Jonell <[email protected]> Bill Hunter <[email protected]> Bill Sisson <[email protected]> Bittner <[email protected]> Bob Jacobsen <[email protected]> Bryan Stearns <[email protected]> Chris Marble <[email protected]> Christopher Davis <[email protected]> Dale Ollila <[email protected]> David Doshay <[email protected]> David Murphy <[email protected]> David Reeve Sward <[email protected]> David Sansom <[email protected]> Del Armstrong <[email protected]> [email protected] Francis Jambon <[email protected]> Greg Lindahl <[email protected]> Helen Trillian Rose <[email protected]> Hoover Chan <[email protected]> Jan Mattsson  <[email protected]> Jan Willem Hubbers <[email protected]> Jay Vassos-Libove <[email protected]> John Stoffel <[email protected]> [email protected] [email protected] (Randy Kays) Karl Swartz <[email protected]> Kermit Carlson <[email protected]> [email protected] (Kit Linder) Lloyd D Reid <[email protected]> Luke Whitaker <[email protected]> Mark Michaelian <[email protected]> Matthew Stahl <[email protected]> Matti E Hy|tyniemi <[email protected]> Michael Quinn <[email protected]> Michael R. Jones  <[email protected]> Mr PJ Mahon <[email protected]> [email protected] Olin Perry Norton <[email protected]> Olivier PLAUT <[email protected]> Paul Michael Keller <[email protected]> Pete Mellor <[email protected]> Peter Johannes <[email protected]> Phil Irvine <[email protected]> Phil Sutherland <[email protected]> Prasad V. N. Gade <[email protected]> [email protected] Rob Stengel <[email protected]> Robert Byron Lowrie <[email protected]> [email protected] Roland Kaltefleiter <[email protected]> Scott Stanford <[email protected]> Simo S{teri <[email protected]> Simon Breeze <[email protected]> Sparky <[email protected]> Stephan Wenger <[email protected]> [email protected] (Steve Smith) Thomas Netter <[email protected]> Tom Downey <[email protected]> Tony Heatwole <[email protected]> Werner Uhrig <[email protected]> [email protected] (Steve Altus) [email protected] (Andrew Finkenstadt) [email protected] (Maurizio Barbato) [email protected] (Mark Barnett) [email protected] [email protected] (G. Beagles) [email protected] (Fernando Biagioli) [email protected] (William Hawkins) bolo/Joe Burger <[email protected]> [email protected] (Brett Hoffstadt) [email protected] (Paul Kennedy) [email protected] (Bill Wagner) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Dave Goodman) [email protected] (Dave Michelson) [email protected] (Doug Bloomberg) [email protected] (Tom Dickinson) [email protected] (Diego Garcia) [email protected] (Dean Kling) [email protected] (Darrell Kachilla) [email protected] (Ed McGuire) [email protected] (Eugene N. Miya) [email protected] (Stephen Fenwick) [email protected] (David Fricker) [email protected] [email protected] (James Michael Sambrook) [email protected] (Greg B Titus) [email protected] (Gero Kuhlmann) [email protected] (Gregory G. Woodbury) [email protected] [email protected] (Gary L. Cole) [email protected] (Gordon Matheson) [email protected] (Ingbert Graf) [email protected] (Leland Guyer) [email protected] (Jan Isley) [email protected] (Randell Jesup) [email protected] (Joel Furr) [email protected] (Letricia Ogutu) [email protected] (Jay Maynard) [email protected] (John A. Gregor) [email protected] (Jonathan Thornburg) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Ken Stox) [email protected] [email protected] (Chris Lopez) [email protected] (Mark A. Matthews) [email protected] (Mark Gonzales) [email protected] (Matthew I. Hoffman) [email protected] (Mark Atwood) [email protected] (Chris Metzler) [email protected] (Mike Hatz) [email protected] (Allen Miller) [email protected] (Mark Brader) [email protected] (Mike Smith x3297) [email protected] (Michael C. Tanner) [email protected] (William Johnson) [email protected] [email protected] (Jeff Nanis) [email protected] (Anthony Nasr) [email protected] (Bruce O'Neel) [email protected] (Padraig Houlahan) [email protected] (Stefano Paraboschi) [email protected] (Patrick Bryant) [email protected] [email protected] (Philip D Bridges) [email protected] (Peter Gage) [email protected] (Patrick Ferrell) [email protected] (Joel Plutchak) [email protected] [email protected] (Dan Whipple) [email protected] (Richard A Hyde  [email protected]) [email protected] (Paul Raveling) [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) [email protected] (Richard H. Miller) [email protected] (Rob Dixon) [email protected] (rperry) [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] (Aaron Sawdey) [email protected] (John M. Pearce) [email protected] (Mary Shafer) [email protected] (Civ Daniel G. Sharpes) [email protected] (Mike Horrell) [email protected] (Stu Labovitz) [email protected] (Don Stuart) [email protected] (Peter Bodifee) [email protected] [email protected] (Timothy D Aanerud) [email protected] (Chris Miller) [email protected] (Tony Movshon) [email protected] (Stephen C. Trier) [email protected] (Taylor Tsai (PME G813727) TEL. 715131-4870) [email protected] [email protected] (Vic Vaivads) vijgen paul          <[email protected]> [email protected] (Axel Wagner) [email protected] (Norman Yarvin) [email protected] (Jim Diamond)            
 
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