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From [email protected] Thu Aug 20 10:08:53 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2638 news.groups:55611 sci.aeronautics:4550 rec.aviation:59796 rec.travel.air:4131 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation,rec.travel.air Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Subject: RFD: sci.aeronautics.airliners Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: news.groups Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:42:42 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 182               REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS  PROPOSED CHARTER:      Moderated-discussion group on airliner technology, concentrating on     the design, construction, performance, human factors, operation, and     histories of transport-category aircraft.   DISCUSSION PERIOD:      0000 CST August 19, 1992 through 0000 CST September 18, 1992.      Following the discussion period, if there appears to be support,     I will issue a CALL-FOR-VOTES (CFV).            This RFD will be re-posted in two weeks.      Please wade through the following to answer the mini-survey at     the end.   WHY?  A month ago, Geoff Peck issued a comprehensive re-organization proposal for  rec.aviation, after somewhat intense consultation with quite a few people,  including myself.  Simultaneously, I ran a survey on a variety of proposed  newsgroups, to try to get a "straw poll" of how strongly users might  support the various groups (and the re-organization concept, in general).  The discussion-period showed there was fairly widespread interest in an airliners newsgroup.  Even though, on average, airliner traffic comprises  about 7% of the total traffic on rec.aviation, over a quarter of the survey respondents expressed a strong interest in the creation of an airliners  group.  Currently, airliner traffic is distributed among rec.travel.air,  sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, and rec.aviation, in declining order of  frequency.  Some consolidation of this type of traffic is clearly needed.   Going into the discussion period, I believed that the user-base for an  airliners group was too tenuous for it to work.  I have changed that  opinion.  However, the question of which forum is more appropriate for an airliner sub-group lingers: sci.aeronautics, or rec.aviation.  I feel  the correct choice is sci.aeronautics, for the following reasons:      1.  The "technical" aspects of the proposed charter clearly match the     charter of sci.aeronautics; it would be a "case-study" group.  When     sci.aeronautics was created, "aeronautics" was very carefully chosen     as its name, to give the charter more breadth than "aerodynamics" or      other similar "specialty" terms would imply.  It was intended to deal      with the *technology* of aerospace, in both theoretical and practical     applications.      2.  Sci.aeronautics reaches more technical sites than rec.aviation,     Of particular concern is the fact that many aerospace companies simply      do not import rec.*.  This means that by including an airliner group in      rec.*, we would automatically be excluding many of the people the group      needs the most, in order to work.      3.  In a similar vein, many educational sites do not receive rec.*.     Especially with an increasing number of high schools developing their     own sub-nets, experimenting with the use of usenet in a teaching     environment, creating a useful, low-noise group under the sci.*     hierarchy could have far-reaching ramifications.          4.  Rec.aviation's forte has always been *general* aviation: that's     what the group's for, and that's why it's in the rec.* hierarchy.     Rec.aviation has been characterized by technical, specialized traffic,     *but* the orientation strongly remains *general* aviation (general      aviation is the FAA's designation for non-commercial, non-military      aviation).  General aviation is what the rec.aviation users *do*,      what they *fly*, what they *know* about.  It is a group that any      conscientious private pilot should read.          However, specialized, technical discussions, outside the scope of      "classical" general aviation, have tended to be relatively low-signal,      intermittent, and somewhat repetitious.  These discussions do not      necessarily belong in rec.aviation, any more than discussions on, say,      ticket-prices do.  When alternative forums exist for this "specialist"     traffic, they should be utilized, and this is the case with      sci.aeronautics.          5.  For the many people not interested in "flying," per se, but only     *technology*, sci.aeronautics is the logical place to look for     technical  discussions of this type.      6.  "Sci," in general, is supposed to get people to think more clearly     about subjects, before they post.  This is obviously not always the     case (and I'm *occasionally* an offender :-)), but the idea's there.   I propose that sci.aeronautics.airliners be created as a *moderated* group. Why?  Simply because these discussions sometimes create a *lot* of noise.  For example, some twenty non-informative posts resulted from the  crash of a USAir jetliner earlier this year; over half of them were "what do  you think happened?" queries, within a day of the crash.  Earlier, over *50* posts were dedicated to the "Fat Guy on Southwest" thread, about an overweight passenger getting bumped.  And 28 posts resulted from one person asking for help identifying an unknown tail logo he saw at an airport--all replying with much the same information.    I have nothing against the people who ask and answer these questions: it's  just not a very useful utilization of resources, overall, and is, occasion- ally, an *abysmal* utilization of resources.  Thus, moderation of some kind  is called for, if not to guide the *qualitative* traffic, then to at least  cut down on the *repetition*.  I would love to do it: however, inasmuch as I tend to step on too many toes (:-)), I propose Karl Swartz.  Karl has contributed a large number of highly informative discussions to the various airliners groups over the years.  He's literate, well-informed, level-headed, and can be trusted to do a good job.  He's interested in both "technical" issues, and more "enthusiast-ish" issues, which would tend to ensure a fair balance of posts.  He's indicated that he would use a very flexible moderation style,  essentially reposting all messages until a "noise threshold" is reached.   He's also expressed interest in the "co-moderation" concept, so as to keep  the group alive, if any single moderator should go off on vacation or be  indisposed; this can also be used for "load-shedding" if it should evolve  into a high-volume group.   "What about the rec.aviation re-organization?" you might ask.    Geoff's proposal is about to go to a formal vote.  Well, the bottom line is:  he has an alternate take on this.  He feels that an airliner group in  rec.aviation could work, and it will appear on his CFV.  I respectfully  disagree with his decision to include it, but wish him the best of luck with  most of the remainder of his proposal.    The reason I'm posting this RFD at this late point is that I don't feel the issue has been sufficiently discussed, nor that the interests of "non- rec.aviation" viewpoints on the net have been sufficiently considered.    To make a long story short, I've been pushing for an airliners group since 1985.  I still have misgivings as to whether one would work, but if we're going to establish the framework, I think it should be one that will produce the "best," most technical, low-noise discussions, one which will clearly delineate engineering/human factors/operations  discussions, and one which will be flexible enough to let us grow into, as  more and more aerospace personnel join the net, and the character of the  traffic changes from speculative/academic, to applications-oriented.  I feel that sci.aeronautics.airliners is the only logical choice, while a *rec* group is a big step in the wrong direction, and an unmoderated rec group even worse.   Since the rec.aviation re-organization discussion period failed to address this issue clearly (one among a dozen and a half proposed groups), I'm  hoping this RFD will, and will influence the vote in favor of an eventual  CFV for the sci.aeronautics.airliners group, AND incline users to vote  against the rec.aviation.airliners group, in the short term.    Therefore, to kick off THIS discussion period, I ask you to answer the following four questions:      1. Do you support an airliners group at ALL?      2. Do you feel it should be under sci.aeronautics?      3. Do you feel it should be under rec.aviation?      4. Do you feel that an airliners group should be moderated?  Just reply to this message, or send email to  [email protected]  Any additional commentary is, as  always, most welcome.  As with the rec.aviation survey, this set of questions is non-binding: it's solely to help me take a straw poll of the relative support of the two proposals.  You will have an opportunity to issue a formal vote for or against the group if this proposal goes to a call-for-votes in four weeks' time.  Please direct all follow-ups to news.groups. --  Robert Dorsett [email protected] ...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd  From [email protected] Tue Sep 29 09:38:17 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2787 news.groups:57109 sci.aeronautics:4851 rec.aviation:62270 rec.travel.air:4864 rec.travel:41484 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation,rec.travel.air,rec.travel Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Subject: CFV: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated Message-ID: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:24:41 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 91                     CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS  PROPOSED CHARTER:      A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,      construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories      of transport-category airplanes.   HOW TO VOTE:      To register a vote, send an email message to:         [email protected]      Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, SHOULD be created.          Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, should NOT be created.          Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).      To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message      to:           [email protected]      Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes      will be counted.   VOTING PERIOD:      0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.      This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements     of votes.          Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to     all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes      than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the     group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.       RATIONALE  This group should be created for the following reasons:      1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.      2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it         isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps          sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and          rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.  This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:      1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than         rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some         level of participation by those in the industry is very important          for the group to work, in the long term.      2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original         charter and intent.      3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation:          rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general          aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many         users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized,          technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend          to bypass the group.              4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education          networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any          other hierarchy.  The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels  various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,   especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.  Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has  volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his  moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only  "clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears.   Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in  archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be  archived, elsewhere).  I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added,  if the need arises.  From [email protected] Wed Oct  7 13:46:05 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2801 news.groups:57441 sci.aeronautics:4906 rec.travel.air:4969 rec.travel:41778 rec.aviation:62586 rec.aviation.misc:47 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.travel.air,rec.travel,rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Subject: 2nd CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated Followup-To: poster Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:49:21 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Lines: 185                     CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS  PROPOSED CHARTER:      A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,      construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories      of transport-category airplanes.   HOW TO VOTE:      To register a vote, send an email message to:         [email protected]      Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, SHOULD be created.          Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, should NOT be created.          Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).      To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message      to:           [email protected]      Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes      will be counted.   VOTING PERIOD:      0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.      This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements     of votes.          Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to     all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes      than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the     group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.       RATIONALE  This group should be created for the following reasons:      1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.      2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it         isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps          sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and          rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.  This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:      1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than         rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some         level of participation by those in the industry is very important          for the group to work, in the long term.      2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original         charter and intent.      3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation:          rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general          aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many         users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized,          technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend          to bypass the group.              4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education          networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any          other hierarchy.  The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels  various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,   especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.  Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has  volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his  moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only  "clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears.   Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in  archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be  archived, elsewhere).  I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added,  if the need arises.  -----------------------------   Initial vote acknowledgement:  "lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock" [email protected]                Scott Jacobson [email protected]                 [email protected]                   Ed Miller [email protected]                Geoff Miller [email protected]                   Tony Heatwole [email protected]           KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES [email protected]           [email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin [email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of  [email protected]              Andy Hogben [email protected]                Steve Altus [email protected]                     Bob Bell [email protected]                            Jim Ault [email protected]                 [email protected]                    Keith Barr [email protected]          Ben Davis [email protected]                 Ann Berner [email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau [email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt [email protected]  [email protected]                              Christopher Davis [email protected]                   Dave Goodman [email protected]              David Masters dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario [email protected]                  Don Montgomery [email protected]               Kevin Driscoll [email protected]                      [email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson" [email protected]           [email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya [email protected]           Stephen Fenwick [email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck [email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury [email protected]                  [email protected]                  [email protected]                 GUEST 9 [email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty [email protected]              [email protected]                  Ken Hoyme [email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose [email protected]            Kenneth Ingham [email protected]                 John Clear [email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger [email protected]                    Karl Swartz [email protected]               Ken Koellner [email protected]               [email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson [email protected]           Leon Shieh matwood%[email protected]               [email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy [email protected]                      Pat McManus [email protected]                         Martyn Thomas [email protected]                 Michael Bain [email protected]                [email protected]                    [email protected]                      Judah Milgram [email protected]               Griff Miller X7114 [email protected]                      William Moxley [email protected]                        Nigel Gamble [email protected]                          Pete Babic [email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan [email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi pedregal%[email protected]              [email protected]            Phil Sutherland [email protected]            Joel Plutchak [email protected]                         Pete Mellor [email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt [email protected]              "Paul S. Miner" [email protected]               Paul Raveling rdd                                      Robert Dorsett [email protected]             Richard H. Miller [email protected]                            [email protected]              ruman [email protected]               Duckie Shiau [email protected]                          [email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies"" [email protected]                            Urban F [email protected]                       Vic Vaivads [email protected]       Axel Wagner [email protected]                          Carl Watkins [email protected]                      Michael Weiss [email protected]             Werner Uhrig [email protected]           Michael Woodhams [email protected]                   Steve Wolf  From [email protected] Tue Oct 13 12:51:17 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2827 news.groups:57752 sci.aeronautics:4993 rec.aviation.misc:121 rec.travel.air:5121 rec.aviation.simulators:156 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.travel.air,rec.aviation.simulators Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated Followup-To: poster Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UTexas Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:41:57 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Lines: 226                     CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS  PROPOSED CHARTER:      A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,      construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories      of transport-category airplanes.   HOW TO VOTE:      To register a vote, send an email message to:         [email protected]      Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, SHOULD be created.          Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, should NOT be created.          Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).      To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message      to:           [email protected]      Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes      will be counted.   VOTING PERIOD:      0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.      This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements     of votes.          Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to     all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes      than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the     group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.       RATIONALE  This group should be created for the following reasons:      1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.      2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it         isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps          sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and          rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.  This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:      1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than         rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some         level of participation by those in the industry is very important          for the group to work, in the long term.      2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original         charter and intent.      3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation:          rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general          aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many         users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized,          technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend          to bypass the group.              4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education          networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any          other hierarchy.  The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels  various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,   especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.  Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has  volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his  moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only  "clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears.   Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in  archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be  archived, elsewhere).  I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added,  if the need arises.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vote acknowledgement: votes received through 0000 CST, October 15, 1992:  "lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock" [email protected]                Scott Jacobson [email protected]                     [email protected]                 [email protected]                   Ed Miller [email protected]                [email protected]                Geoff Miller [email protected]                   Tony Heatwole [email protected]              [email protected]           KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES [email protected]           [email protected]                Bob Paver [email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin [email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of  [email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina [email protected]              Andy Hogben [email protected]                Steve Altus [email protected]                     Bob Bell [email protected]                            Jim Ault [email protected]                 [email protected]                    Keith Barr [email protected]          Ben Davis [email protected]                 Ann Berner [email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau [email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt [email protected]                    Mike Brooks [email protected]  [email protected]                Christophe Pettus [email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis" [email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo [email protected]                              Christopher Davis [email protected]                            Clive Dawson [email protected]  [email protected]                   Dave Goodman [email protected]              David Masters [email protected]                    Del Armstrong [email protected]                        Diana G. dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario [email protected]                     David Murphy [email protected]                  Don Montgomery [email protected]                       Drieux [email protected]               Kevin Driscoll [email protected]                      [email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson" [email protected]           [email protected]                            Erik Hedberg [email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya [email protected]           Stephen Fenwick [email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald [email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse [email protected]                       "gary" geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck [email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury [email protected]                       Greg Lyon [email protected]                  [email protected]                  [email protected]                 GUEST 9 [email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty [email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala [email protected]              [email protected]                  Ken Hoyme [email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose [email protected]            Kenneth Ingham [email protected]                 John Clear [email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger [email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover [email protected]                          Joakim Laine [email protected]           [email protected]                      [email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard [email protected]                    Karl Swartz [email protected]               Ken Koellner [email protected]               [email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson [email protected]           Leon Shieh [email protected]                           Larry Smith [email protected]                 Mark Flanagan matwood%[email protected]               [email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy [email protected]                      Pat McManus [email protected]                         Martyn Thomas [email protected]                 Michael Bain [email protected]            Mark Barnett [email protected]                [email protected]                    [email protected]                      Judah Milgram [email protected]               Griff Miller X7114 [email protected]                      William Moxley [email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba" [email protected]                        William Johnson [email protected]                     Peter Newton [email protected]                        Nigel Gamble [email protected]                      Michael Chang [email protected]                          Pete Babic [email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan [email protected]                Michael T. Palmer [email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi [email protected]                        Paulo Santos pedregal%[email protected]              [email protected]            Phil Sutherland [email protected]            Joel Plutchak [email protected]                         Pete Mellor [email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt [email protected]              "Paul S. Miner" [email protected]               Paul Raveling rdd                                      Robert Dorsett [email protected]                Robert Dorsett [email protected]             Richard H. Miller [email protected]                            [email protected]              ruman [email protected]               Duckie Shiau skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen [email protected]    Stefano Pagiola [email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke" [email protected]                          [email protected]                          [email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies"" [email protected]      [email protected]                            Urban F [email protected]                       Vic Vaivads [email protected]       Axel Wagner [email protected]                          Carl Watkins [email protected]                [email protected]                      Michael Weiss [email protected]             Werner Uhrig [email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo [email protected]           Michael Woodhams [email protected]                   Steve Wolf  From [email protected] Thu Oct 22 21:18:27 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2865 news.groups:58172 sci.aeronautics:5081 rec.aviation.misc:236 rec.travel.air:5281 rec.aviation.simulators:247 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.travel.air,rec.aviation.simulators Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett) Subject: 4th CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners Followup-To: poster Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1992 23:01:50 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Lines: 260                     CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS  PROPOSED CHARTER:      A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,      construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories      of transport-category airplanes.   HOW TO VOTE:      To register a vote, send an email message to:         [email protected]      Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, SHOULD be created.          Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,     as proposed, should NOT be created.          Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).      To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message      to:           [email protected]      Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes      will be counted.   VOTING PERIOD:      0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.      This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements     of votes.          Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to     all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes      than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the     group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.       RATIONALE  This group should be created for the following reasons:      1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.      2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it         isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps          sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and          rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.  This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:      1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than         rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some         level of participation by those in the industry is very important          for the group to work, in the long term.      2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original         charter and intent.      3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation:          rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general          aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many         users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized,          technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend          to bypass the group.              4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education          networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any          other hierarchy.  The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels  various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,   especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.  Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has  volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his  moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only  "clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears.   Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in  archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be  archived, elsewhere).  I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added,  if the need arises.  ---------------------------------- cut here ---------------------------------  The following votes have been received as of 0000 CST on October 16:  "lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock" [email protected]                Scott Jacobson [email protected]                     [email protected]                 [email protected]                   Ed Miller [email protected]                [email protected]                Geoff Miller [email protected]                   Tony Heatwole [email protected]              [email protected]           KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES [email protected]                     [email protected]           [email protected]                Bob Paver [email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT [email protected]                     RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin [email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of  [email protected]              Glenn Radinsky ([email protected] [email protected]                 Steve Smith [email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina [email protected]              Alistair Scott [email protected]              Andy Hogben [email protected]                Steve Altus [email protected]                     Bob Bell [email protected]                            Jim Ault [email protected]                 [email protected]                    Keith Barr [email protected]                    James Barrett [email protected]          Ben Davis [email protected]                 Ann Berner [email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau [email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt [email protected]                    Mike Brooks [email protected]  [email protected]                Christophe Pettus [email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis" [email protected]                    Chris Esposito [email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo [email protected]                         Craig Jackson [email protected]                              Christopher Davis [email protected]                            Clive Dawson [email protected]  [email protected]                 [email protected]                   Dave Goodman [email protected]              David Masters [email protected]                    Del Armstrong [email protected]                        Diana G. dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario [email protected]                     David Murphy [email protected]                  Don Montgomery [email protected]                       Drieux [email protected]               Kevin Driscoll [email protected]                    Niels Ejvind Andersen [email protected]                      [email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson" [email protected]           [email protected]                           Eric Meyer [email protected]                            Erik Hedberg [email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya [email protected]           Stephen Fenwick [email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald [email protected]                 John Little - Nihon Sun Repair Depot [email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse [email protected]                  Bill Garrison [email protected]                       "gary" [email protected]                   Gary Sires geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck [email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury [email protected]                       Greg Lyon [email protected]                  [email protected]                  [email protected]                 GUEST 9 [email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty [email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala [email protected]              [email protected]                  Ken Hoyme [email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose [email protected]            Kenneth Ingham [email protected]                   "B.G. Martlew" [email protected]                 John Clear [email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger [email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover [email protected]                          Joakim Laine [email protected]             John N. Otakie [email protected]           [email protected]                      John Mackin [email protected]                  Jon Lin [email protected]                      [email protected]                            Ken Eichman ([email protected] [email protected]              "Kevin Bailey" [email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard [email protected]                    Karl Swartz [email protected]                Krissie Griffiths [email protected]               Ken Koellner [email protected]               [email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson [email protected]           Leon Shieh [email protected]                           Larry Smith [email protected]                 Mark Flanagan matwood%[email protected]               [email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy [email protected]                      Pat McManus [email protected]                         Martyn Thomas [email protected]                 Michael Bain [email protected]            Mark Barnett [email protected]                [email protected]                    Marty Masters [email protected]                    [email protected]                      Judah Milgram [email protected]               Griff Miller X7114 [email protected]                    Jim Tallant [email protected]                         Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS [email protected]                      William Moxley [email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba" [email protected]                        William Johnson [email protected]                     Peter Newton [email protected]                        Nigel Gamble [email protected]                      Michael Chang [email protected]                Bruce Oneel [email protected]                          Pete Babic [email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan [email protected]                Michael T. Palmer [email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi [email protected]                        Paulo Santos [email protected]                       pedregal%[email protected]              [email protected]                Michael Pereckas [email protected]                 Pete Coe [email protected]            Phil Sutherland [email protected]            Joel Plutchak [email protected]                         Pete Mellor [email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt [email protected]                    [email protected]              "Paul S. Miner" [email protected]               Paul Raveling rdd                                      Robert Dorsett [email protected]             Richard H. Miller [email protected]                      Richard J. Miller [email protected]                            [email protected]              ruman [email protected]               Duckie Shiau skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen [email protected]    Stefano Pagiola [email protected]               Robert Stack [email protected]                       Stephen L Nicoud [email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke" [email protected]            "Thomas L. Webber" [email protected]                      Timothy_Mclean ADAM [email protected]                          [email protected]                   Tom Mackey [email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies"" [email protected]      [email protected]                            Urban F [email protected]                       Vic Vaivads [email protected]       Axel Wagner [email protected]                          Carl Watkins [email protected]                [email protected]                      Michael Weiss [email protected]             Werner Uhrig [email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo [email protected]           Michael Woodhams [email protected]                   Steve Wolf [email protected]                           Zoltan Somogyi  From [email protected] Mon Nov  2 15:43:15 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2892 news.groups:58660 sci.aeronautics:5128 rec.aviation.misc:421 rec.aviation.simulators:343 rec.travel:42745 rec.travel.air:5436 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.simulators,rec.travel,rec.travel.air Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected]xas.edu (Robert Dorsett) Subject: RESULT: sci.aeronautics.airliners passes 169:26 Followup-To: news.groups Approved: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 15:15:13 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> Lines: 259  The voting for sci.aeronautics.airliners ended on 0000 CST, October 29, 1992. The group has passed; my sincerest thanks to everyone who supported it.   === OFFICIAL VOTE TALLY ===          Valid Votes Cast:      195          "Yes" Votes:           169 (86.67% of valid votes)         "No" Votes:             26 (13.33% of valid votes)          Yes-No Margin:         143          Percentage Test:      pass (is yes/valid >= 66.67%?)         Margin Test:          pass (is yes-no >= 100?)          VOTE RESULT:          PASS (do both tests pass?)  In approximately one week, barring any significant problems, a newgroup message should be issued by the news.announce.newgroups moderator.   The newsgroup's charter is:      A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,     construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories     of transport-category airplanes.   The main moderator is Karl Swartz:     [email protected], or [email protected] I am backup moderator:     [email protected]   The vote was partially administered with software kindly provided by Chip  Rosenthal.   === TOP TEN VOTING DOMAINS ===        13 boeing.com        8 nasa.gov        8 ac.uk        7 stanford.edu        6 oz.au        5 umd.edu        5 mit.edu        4 selu.edu        4 hp.com        4 gatech.edu   === OFFICIAL VOTE RECORD ===        n ==  "no" vote       y ==  "yes" vote  Nays:  n [email protected]                 n [email protected]                    James Barrett n [email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt n [email protected]                         Craig Jackson n [email protected]  n [email protected]              J. Lewis n [email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson" n [email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald n [email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse n geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck n [email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover n [email protected]                  Jon Lin n [email protected]               Ken Koellner n [email protected]                 Mark Flanagan n [email protected]                    n [email protected]                        William Johnson n [email protected]                      Michael Chang n [email protected]            Joel Plutchak n [email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt n [email protected]             Richard H. Miller n [email protected]               Duckie Shiau n [email protected]                 Glyn Simpson n [email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke" n [email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies"" n [email protected]                            Urban F n [email protected]                   Steve Wolf   Yays:   y "lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock" y [email protected]                 Robert Green y [email protected]                Scott Jacobson y [email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina y [email protected]              Alistair Scott y [email protected]              Andy Hogben y [email protected]                Steve Altus y [email protected]                     Bob Bell y [email protected]                            Jim Ault y [email protected]                     y [email protected]                         Venkatesh Gopalakrishnan y [email protected]                    Keith Barr y [email protected]                Eric Bartsch y [email protected]          Ben Davis y [email protected]                 Ann Berner y [email protected]                 Brian Hazlehurst y [email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau y [email protected]                    Mike Brooks y [email protected]  y [email protected]                Christophe Pettus y [email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis" y [email protected]                    Chris Esposito y [email protected] Christian Kuehnke y [email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo y [email protected]                              Christopher Davis y [email protected]                            Clive Dawson y [email protected]                Christopher T. Hudgin y [email protected]                 y [email protected]                   Dave Goodman y [email protected]              David Masters y [email protected]                    Del Armstrong y [email protected]                        Diana G. y dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario y [email protected]                     David Murphy y [email protected]                 y [email protected]                  Don Montgomery y dorn%[email protected]    "ALAN DORN HETZEL JR" y [email protected]                       Drieux y [email protected]               Kevin Driscoll y [email protected]                           David Benedict Ducharme y [email protected]                    Niels Ejvind Andersen y [email protected]                   Ed Miller y [email protected]                      y [email protected]           y [email protected]                           Eric Meyer y [email protected]                            Erik Hedberg y [email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya y [email protected]                y [email protected]           Stephen Fenwick y [email protected]              Rich Reynolds y [email protected]                 John Little - Nihon Sun Repair Depot y [email protected]                  Bill Garrison y [email protected]                       "gary" y [email protected]                   Gary Sires y [email protected]                Geoff Miller y [email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury y [email protected]                       Greg Lyon y [email protected]             Greg Wright y [email protected]                  y [email protected]                  y [email protected]                 GUEST 9 y [email protected]                   Tony Heatwole y [email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty y [email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala y [email protected]              y [email protected]                  Ken Hoyme y [email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose y [email protected]                   "B.G. Martlew" y [email protected]            Kenneth Ingham y [email protected]                 John Clear y [email protected]                 John Clear y [email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger y [email protected]                          Joakim Laine y [email protected]              y [email protected]             John N. Otakie y [email protected]           y [email protected]                      John Mackin y [email protected]           y [email protected]                      y KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES y [email protected]                            Ken Eichman ([email protected] y [email protected]                     y [email protected]              "Kevin Bailey" y [email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard y [email protected]                 Wolfgang Klemm y [email protected]                    Karl Swartz y [email protected]                Krissie Griffiths y [email protected]               y [email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson y [email protected]           Leon Shieh y [email protected]                           Larry Smith y matwood%[email protected]               y [email protected]             Martin Emde y [email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy y [email protected]                      Pat McManus y [email protected]                         Martyn Thomas y [email protected]                 Michael Bain y [email protected]            Mark Barnett y [email protected]                y [email protected]                    Marty Masters y [email protected]         Michael Vaughn y [email protected]                      Judah Milgram y [email protected]                 Mark Miller y [email protected]               Griff Miller X7114 y [email protected]                    Jim Tallant y [email protected]                         Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS y [email protected]                      William Moxley y [email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba" y [email protected]                     Peter Newton y [email protected] Nick Wales y [email protected]           y [email protected]                        Nigel Gamble y [email protected]                Bruce Oneel y [email protected]                          Pete Babic y [email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan y [email protected]                Michael T. Palmer y [email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi y [email protected]                        Paulo Santos y [email protected]                       y [email protected]                Bob Paver y [email protected]                         y pedregal%[email protected]              y [email protected]                Michael Pereckas y [email protected]                 Pete Coe y [email protected]                         y [email protected]                     y [email protected]            Phil Sutherland y [email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT y [email protected]                         Pete Mellor y [email protected]                             y [email protected]                    y [email protected]              "Paul S. Miner" y [email protected]                         y [email protected]                          Pirawat Watanapongse y RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin y [email protected]               Paul Raveling y rdd                                      Robert Dorsett y [email protected]                      Richard J. Miller y [email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of  y [email protected]                            y [email protected]              ruman y [email protected]              Glenn Radinsky ([email protected] y [email protected]               Mary Shafer y [email protected]             Jeff Silverman y skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen y [email protected]    Stefano Pagiola y [email protected]               Robert Stack y [email protected]                       Stephen L Nicoud y [email protected]                     y [email protected]                 Steve Smith y [email protected]             Netter Thomas y [email protected]            "Thomas L. Webber" y [email protected]                      Timothy_Mclean ADAM y [email protected]                          y [email protected]                          y [email protected]                   Tom Mackey y [email protected]      y [email protected]                       Vic Vaivads y [email protected]                     y [email protected]       Axel Wagner y [email protected]                          Carl Watkins y [email protected]                        Bruce Watson y [email protected]                y [email protected]                      Michael Weiss y [email protected]             Werner Uhrig y [email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo y [email protected]           Michael Woodhams y [email protected]                         y [email protected]                           Zoltan Somogyi  From [email protected] (RonDippold) Tue Jun 14 16:55:47 1994 Path: uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.aeronautics.simulation moderated Supersedes: <[email protected]> Followup-To: poster Date: 14 Jun 1994 16:46:04 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 97 Sender: [email protected] Approved: [email protected], [email protected], 	[email protected], [email protected] Expires: 30 Jun 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] (Ron Dippold Voting Alias) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5213 news.groups:106290 sci.aeronautics:7222 rec.aviation.simulators:5491 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:19088 sci.engr:9530 sci.engr.control:2363 comp.simulation:1081 sci.military:38016 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1551                       LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)               moderated group sci.aeronautics.simulation  Newsgroups line: sci.aeronautics.simulation      Aerospace simulation technology. (Moderated)   Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 29 Jun 1994.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the proposed group contact Robert Dorsett <[email protected]>.    CHARTER    A moderated discussion group dealing with the implementation of flight and   systems models on computers.  This includes, but is not restricted to:      - the definition of such models      - acquisition and modeling of flight parameters      - design and implementation of onboard systems models      - design and implementation of powerplant models      - standardization of commonly required data, such as flight         parameter databases, navaid databases, etc.      - design of cab-based implementations of flight simulators    The newsgroup will be moderated by Robert Dorsett, [email protected]   The contact address will be [email protected],    requests to [email protected]  Notes -----  There is a close relationship between this group and sci.aeronautics: however, simulation requires more than simply implementing physical equations, and this group will strive to address the specific issues that implementors must face.  The group is offered as moderated to keep it on track, and to try to avoid thread mutation into topics that might belong on other groups.  It should also help stop commercial direct-marketers, who post to inappropriate groups, selling everything >from hand cream to visa applications.  I will work in concert with the moderators of sci.aeronautics (Mary Shafer) and sci.aeronautics.airliners (Karl Swartz) to control the topical focus of relevant articles.   What the group is not about ---------------------------  - Generic simulation issues (handled by comp.simulation) - Validating games (rec.aviation.simulators, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim) - Using flight games   History of the proposal -----------------------  The RFD was issued in early February, after the moderator of sci.aeronautics noted the high incidence of posts dealing with simulation issues.  I had also noticed a number of highly technical queries appearing on rec.aviation.simulators, without any follow-ups.  The RFD produced a large number of very positive responses from people active in all segments of the industry, ranging from the airframe manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers to aerospace departments to government researchers to game designers.  Due to a pesky phone line, the vote was delayed; after the problems were fixed, a second RFD was issued in May, which similarly had a good response.    HOW TO VOTE  Send MAIL to:   [email protected] Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.  Your mail message should contain one of the following statements:       I vote YES on sci.aeronautics.simulation       I vote NO on sci.aeronautics.simulation  You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  One vote counted per person, no more than one per account. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.   sci.aeronautics.simulation Bounce List - No need to revote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                              
 
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