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From [email protected] Thu Oct 21 02:13:51 1999 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Kenneth S. Manning, PhD) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.engr Subject: RFD: sci.engr.edu Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.engr.edu Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:03:58 GMT Lines: 115 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11181 news.groups:330758 sci.engr:41032                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                     unmoderated group sci.engr.edu  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.engr.edu. This is not a Call For Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below.  Newsgroup line: sci.engr.edu		Topics in engineering education.  RATIONALE: sci.engr.edu  There are over forty newsgroups in the sci.engr.* hierarchy, but all are intended mostly for the discussion of topics concerning the practicing engineer. Several mention educational issues in their charters as anticipated topics, but none address the teaching of engineering as separate from the issues that would interest the practicing of engineering.  The newsgroup sci.engr.edu would be a forum for issues about engineering education and related topics such as math and science education of engineers, textbook selection, class administration, promotion and tenure, laboratories, and problems teaching engineering students. There are currently over 12,000 members of the American Society for Engineering Education, which is supporting this proposal. The biweekly Listserv "Tomorrow's Professor" has over 6,000 members in 61 countries, and is primarily for educators in any science and engineering field. It is one of the few resources open to those looking for a public forum in which to discuss issues related to becoming (or remaining) a professor. The Gradschools.com lists 25 separate engineering related forums. The website, Onelist (http://www.onelist.com/), has over 316 engineering-related groups, about 75% of which are directly related to classes, education, and/or universities. While this indicates the strength of the interest in engineering education topics most are restricted in membership, illuminating the need for a public, more universal forum.  Sci.engr is the one generic engineering group currently in existence. Though educational topics are welcome, it is predominantly a forum for topics of interest to the practicing engineer. Topics such as professional licensing, manufacturing standards, consulting, and design software are best discussed in sci.engr or in the more specific engineering groups like sci.engr.civil.roads . Posting of topics related specifically to the teaching of engineering dilute the focus of those groups and cause engineering education topics to be spread over the many groups perhaps arbitrarily chosen by the poster. This makes it very difficult for a new professor to find help from a broader more experienced audience.  CHARTER: sci.engr.edu  The newsgroup sci.engr.edu is a forum for issues related to the teaching and learning of engineering at all levels. Engineering education topics will include, but not be limited to, classroom techniques, administration, promotion and tenure, serving on committees, educational psychology, enrollment, recruitment, retention, textbooks, grant writing, accreditation, and examination design. Other topics might include recruiting, retaining, and guiding teaching and research assistants. It is not intended to be a technical forum where current research topics are discussed.  This is not intended to be a resource for students to get help on homework or projects. The teacher of the student best handles such requests. However, these requests have been welcome in the other sci.engr.* groups since they are often discipline-specific.  The group sci.engr.edu can be a place for students to inquire into the nature of being an engineering student, especially an undergraduate inquiring about life in graduate school.  Advertisements for commercial products are discouraged.  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal is to be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  This RFD has been posted to: news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.engr  Additional copies of the RFD are at: http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/charter.html the website http://scientistlifeboat.com/ the open forum http://www.gradschools.com  Additional pointers to this RFD will be posted to: All members of the American Society for Engineering Education misc.education.science sci.engr.civil sci.engr.mech sci.engr.chem sci.edu  Proponent: Kenneth S. Manning, PhD <[email protected]> Mentor: Joshua Kramer <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Fri Oct 29 04:13:02 1999 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Kenneth S. Manning, PhD) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.engr Subject: 2nd RFD: sci.engr.education Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.engr.education Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:08:23 GMT Lines: 140 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11195 news.groups:332717 sci.engr:41296                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                  unmoderated group sci.engr.education  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.engr.education. This is not a Call For Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below.  Newsgroup line: sci.engr.education	Topics in engineering education.  CHANGES from previous RFD:  1) Group name was changed from sci.engr.edu to sci.engr.education. 2) The rationale was expanded. 3) The charter was modified to clarify certain points.  RATIONALE: sci.engr.education  There are over forty newsgroups in the sci.engr.* hierarchy, but all are intended mostly for the discussion of topics concerning the practicing engineer. Several mention educational issues in their charters as anticipated topics, but none address the teaching of engineering as separate from the issues that would interest the practicing of engineering.  The newsgroup sci.engr.education would be a forum for issues about engineering education and related topics such as math and science education of engineers, textbook selection, class administration, promotion and tenure, laboratories, and problems teaching engineering students.  A search (dated: Oct. 21, 1999 through a Dejanews power search) of recent posts in the existing sci.engr.* hierarchy found the following keywords appearing: 'education' 1200 times, 'professor' 700 times, 'teach' 800 times, 'classroom' 47 times, and 'class' 1100 times (clearly that last one can carry many different meanings; perhaps a third were related to an engineering class at a school.  One recent string concerning the use of hand-calculations in class instruction carried over 400 posts.  Even a staunch opponent to the formation of this group, admitted in the first RFD discussion, that "the traffic appears to be there" (full text at http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/traffic.htm).  There are currently over 12,000 members of the American Society for Engineering Education, which is supporting this proposal. The biweekly Listserv "Tomorrow's Professor" has over 6,000 members In 61 countries, and is primarily for educators in any science and engineering field. It is one of the few resources open to those looking for a public forum in which to discuss issues related to becoming (or remaining) a professor. The Gradschools.com lists 25 separate engineering related forums. The website, Onelist (http://www.onelist.com/), has over 316 engineering-related groups, about 75% of which are directly related to classes, education, and/or universities. While this indicates the strength of the interest in engineering education topics most are restricted in membership, illuminating the need for a public, more universal forum.  Sci.engr is the one generic engineering group currently in existence. Though educational topics appear welcome, it is predominantly a forum for topics of interest to the practicing engineer.  Topics such as professional licensing, manufacturing standards, consulting, and design software are best discussed in sci.engr or in the more specific engineering groups like sci.engr.civil.roads . Posting of topics related specifically to the teaching of engineering dilute the focus of those groups and cause engineering education topics to be spread over the many groups perhaps arbitrarily chosen by the poster. This makes it very difficult for a new professor to find help from a broader more experienced audience.  CHARTER: sci.engr.education  The newsgroup sci.engr.education is a forum for issues related to the teaching and learning of engineering at all levels. Engineering education topics will include, but not be limited to, classroom techniques, administration, promotion and tenure, serving on committees, educational psychology, enrollment, recruitment, retention, textbooks, grant writing, accreditation, and examination design. Other topics might include recruiting, retaining, and guiding teaching and research assistants. It is not intended to be a technical forum where current research topics and results are discussed.  This is not intended to be a resource for students to get help on homework or projects. The teacher of the student best handles such requests. However, when well-formed with some forethought these requests have been welcome in the other sci.engr.* groups since they are often discipline-specific.  The group sci.engr.education will be a place for students to inquire into the nature of being an engineering student, especially an undergraduate inquiring about life in graduate school.  Advertisements for commercial products are discouraged.  The general guidelines of Usenet Posting will be followed.  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal is to be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  This RFD has been posted to: news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.engr  Additional copies of the RFD are at: http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/charter.html the website http://scientistlifeboat.com/ the open forum http://www.gradschools.com  Additional pointers to this RFD will be posted to: All members of the American Society for Engineering Education misc.education.science sci.engr.civil sci.engr.mech sci.engr.chem sci.edu  Proponent: Kenneth S. Manning, PhD <[email protected]> Mentor: Joshua Kramer <[email protected]>  From [email protected] Mon Nov 22 13:28:38 1999 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.engr Subject: CFV: sci.engr.education Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 14 Dec 1999 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.engr.education Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:18:49 GMT Lines: 184 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11222 news.groups:335425 sci.engr:41686                       FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                  unmoderated group sci.engr.education  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid.  Newsgroups line: sci.engr.education	Topics in engineering education.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 13 Dec 1999.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Kenneth S. Manning, PhD <[email protected]> Mentor: Joshua Kramer <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.engr.education  There are over forty newsgroups in the sci.engr.* hierarchy, but all are intended mostly for the discussion of topics concerning the practicing engineer. Several mention educational issues in their charters as anticipated topics, but none address the teaching of engineering as separate from the issues that would interest the practicing of engineering.  The newsgroup sci.engr.education would be a forum for issues about engineering education and related topics such as math and science education of engineers, textbook selection, class administration, promotion and tenure, laboratories, and problems teaching engineering students.  A search (dated: Oct. 21, 1999 through a Dejanews power search) of recent posts in the existing sci.engr.* hierarchy found the following keywords appearing: 'education' 1200 times, 'professor' 700 times, 'teach' 800 times, 'classroom' 47 times, and 'class' 1100 times (clearly that last one can carry many different meanings; perhaps a third were related to an engineering class at a school.  One recent string concerning the use of hand-calculations in class instruction carried over 900 posts.  Even a staunch opponent to the formation of this group, admitted in the first RFD discussion, that "the traffic appears to be there" (full text at http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/traffic.htm).  There are currently over 12,000 members of the American Society for Engineering Education, which is supporting this proposal. The biweekly Listserv "Tomorrow's Professor" has over 6,000 members in 61 countries, and is primarily for educators in any science and engineering field. It is one of the few resources open to those looking for a public forum in which to discuss issues related to becoming (or remaining) a professor. The Gradschools.com lists 25 separate engineering related forums. The website, Onelist (http://www.onelist.com/), has over 316 engineering-related groups, about 75% of which are directly related to classes, education, and/or universities. While this indicates the strength of the interest in engineering education topics most are restricted in membership, illuminating the need for a public, more universal forum.  Sci.engr is the one generic engineering group currently in existence. Though educational topics appear welcome, it is predominantly a forum for topics of interest to the practicing engineer, and the charter no longer exists.  Topics such as professional licensing, manufacturing standards, consulting, and design software are best discussed in sci.engr or in the more specific engineering groups like sci.engr.civil.roads .  Posting of topics related specifically to the teaching of engineering dilute the focus of those groups and cause engineering education topics to be spread over the many groups perhaps arbitrarily chosen by the poster. This makes it very difficult for a new professor to find help from a broader more experienced audience.  CHARTER: sci.engr.education  The newsgroup sci.engr.education is a forum for issues related to the teaching and learning of engineering at all levels. Engineering education topics will include, but not be limited to, classroom techniques, administration, promotion and tenure, serving on committees, educational psychology, enrollment, recruitment, retention, textbooks, grant writing, accreditation, and examination design. Other topics might include recruiting, retaining, and guiding teaching and research assistants. It is not intended to be a technical forum where current research topics and results are discussed.  This is not intended to be a resource for students to get help on homework or projects. The teacher of the student best handles such requests. However, when well-formed with some forethought these requests have been welcome in the other sci.engr.* groups since they are often discipline-specific.  The group sci.engr.education will be a place for students to inquire into the nature of being an engineering student, especially an undergraduate inquiring about life in graduate school.  Advertisements for commercial products are discouraged.  The general guidelines of Usenet Posting will be followed.  END CHARTER.  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Do *not* distribute this CFV;  instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud.  This is a public vote:  All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post.  The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle.  At most one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist).  Votes from nonexistent accounts are also invalid, and the votetaker will reject any "munged" address he cannot decipher immediately.  Please direct any questions to the votetaker at <[email protected]>  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me!  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide your REAL NAME and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote:    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < [email protected] > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly.  If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: sci.engr.education | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other | information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line:  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  sci.engr.education  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  DISTRIBUTION:  Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:  misc.education.science sci.edu sci.engr.chem sci.engr.civil sci.engr.mech  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Feb  6 1999). PQ datestamp: 980322  --  Voting address: [email protected]  From [email protected] Thu Dec  2 11:29:23 1999 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.engr Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.engr.education Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 14 Dec 1999 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.engr.education Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:26:20 GMT Lines: 188 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11235 news.groups:336395 sci.engr:41794                        LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                  unmoderated group sci.engr.education  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid.  Newsgroups line: sci.engr.education	Topics in engineering education.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 13 Dec 1999.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Kenneth S. Manning, PhD <[email protected]> Mentor: Joshua Kramer <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.engr.education  There are over forty newsgroups in the sci.engr.* hierarchy, but all are intended mostly for the discussion of topics concerning the practicing engineer. Several mention educational issues in their charters as anticipated topics, but none address the teaching of engineering as separate from the issues that would interest the practicing of engineering.  The newsgroup sci.engr.education would be a forum for issues about engineering education and related topics such as math and science education of engineers, textbook selection, class administration, promotion and tenure, laboratories, and problems teaching engineering students.  A search (dated: Oct. 21, 1999 through a Dejanews power search) of recent posts in the existing sci.engr.* hierarchy found the following keywords appearing: 'education' 1200 times, 'professor' 700 times, 'teach' 800 times, 'classroom' 47 times, and 'class' 1100 times (clearly that last one can carry many different meanings; perhaps a third were related to an engineering class at a school.  One recent string concerning the use of hand-calculations in class instruction carried over 900 posts.  Even a staunch opponent to the formation of this group, admitted in the first RFD discussion, that "the traffic appears to be there" (full text at http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/traffic.htm).  There are currently over 12,000 members of the American Society for Engineering Education, which is supporting this proposal. The biweekly Listserv "Tomorrow's Professor" has over 6,000 members in 61 countries, and is primarily for educators in any science and engineering field. It is one of the few resources open to those looking for a public forum in which to discuss issues related to becoming (or remaining) a professor. The Gradschools.com lists 25 separate engineering related forums. The website, Onelist (http://www.onelist.com/), has over 316 engineering-related groups, about 75% of which are directly related to classes, education, and/or universities. While this indicates the strength of the interest in engineering education topics most are restricted in membership, illuminating the need for a public, more universal forum.  Sci.engr is the one generic engineering group currently in existence. Though educational topics appear welcome, it is predominantly a forum for topics of interest to the practicing engineer, and the charter no longer exists.  Topics such as professional licensing, manufacturing standards, consulting, and design software are best discussed in sci.engr or in the more specific engineering groups like sci.engr.civil.roads .  Posting of topics related specifically to the teaching of engineering dilute the focus of those groups and cause engineering education topics to be spread over the many groups perhaps arbitrarily chosen by the poster. This makes it very difficult for a new professor to find help from a broader more experienced audience.  CHARTER: sci.engr.education  The newsgroup sci.engr.education is a forum for issues related to the teaching and learning of engineering at all levels. Engineering education topics will include, but not be limited to, classroom techniques, administration, promotion and tenure, serving on committees, educational psychology, enrollment, recruitment, retention, textbooks, grant writing, accreditation, and examination design. Other topics might include recruiting, retaining, and guiding teaching and research assistants. It is not intended to be a technical forum where current research topics and results are discussed.  This is not intended to be a resource for students to get help on homework or projects. The teacher of the student best handles such requests. However, when well-formed with some forethought these requests have been welcome in the other sci.engr.* groups since they are often discipline-specific.  The group sci.engr.education will be a place for students to inquire into the nature of being an engineering student, especially an undergraduate inquiring about life in graduate school.  Advertisements for commercial products are discouraged.  The general guidelines of Usenet Posting will be followed.  END CHARTER.  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Do *not* distribute this CFV;  instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud.  This is a public vote:  All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post.  The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle.  At most one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist).  Votes from nonexistent accounts are also invalid, and the votetaker will reject any "munged" address he cannot decipher immediately.  Please direct any questions to the votetaker at <[email protected]>  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me!  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide your REAL NAME and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote:    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < [email protected] > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly.  If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: sci.engr.education | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other | information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line:  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  sci.engr.education  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  DISTRIBUTION:  Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:  misc.education.science sci.edu sci.engr.chem sci.engr.civil sci.engr.mech  sci.engr.education Bounce List - Please contact me about your vote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [email protected]                                              darren smith  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Feb  6 1999). PQ datestamp: 980322  --  Voting address: [email protected]  From [email protected] Tue Dec 14 09:15:03 1999 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.engr Subject: RESULT: sci.engr.education fails 44:20 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.engr.education Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:09:04 GMT Lines: 195 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11248 news.groups:337466 sci.engr:41896                                  RESULT            unmoderated group sci.engr.education fails 44:20  There were 44 YES votes and 20 NO votes, for a total of 64 valid votes.  There were 5 abstentions and 1 invalid ballot.  For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes.  There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.  A five day discussion period follows this announcement.  Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may not be voted on again for six months.  Newsgroups line: sci.engr.education	Topics in engineering education.  The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 13 Dec 1999.  This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Kenneth S. Manning, PhD <[email protected]> Mentor: Joshua Kramer <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.engr.education  There are over forty newsgroups in the sci.engr.* hierarchy, but all are intended mostly for the discussion of topics concerning the practicing engineer. Several mention educational issues in their charters as anticipated topics, but none address the teaching of engineering as separate from the issues that would interest the practicing of engineering.  The newsgroup sci.engr.education would be a forum for issues about engineering education and related topics such as math and science education of engineers, textbook selection, class administration, promotion and tenure, laboratories, and problems teaching engineering students.  A search (dated: Oct. 21, 1999 through a Dejanews power search) of recent posts in the existing sci.engr.* hierarchy found the following keywords appearing: 'education' 1200 times, 'professor' 700 times, 'teach' 800 times, 'classroom' 47 times, and 'class' 1100 times (clearly that last one can carry many different meanings; perhaps a third were related to an engineering class at a school.  One recent string concerning the use of hand-calculations in class instruction carried over 900 posts.  Even a staunch opponent to the formation of this group, admitted in the first RFD discussion, that "the traffic appears to be there" (full text at http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/traffic.htm).  There are currently over 12,000 members of the American Society for Engineering Education, which is supporting this proposal. The biweekly Listserv "Tomorrow's Professor" has over 6,000 members in 61 countries, and is primarily for educators in any science and engineering field. It is one of the few resources open to those looking for a public forum in which to discuss issues related to becoming (or remaining) a professor. The Gradschools.com lists 25 separate engineering related forums. The website, Onelist (http://www.onelist.com/), has over 316 engineering-related groups, about 75% of which are directly related to classes, education, and/or universities. While this indicates the strength of the interest in engineering education topics most are restricted in membership, illuminating the need for a public, more universal forum.  Sci.engr is the one generic engineering group currently in existence. Though educational topics appear welcome, it is predominantly a forum for topics of interest to the practicing engineer, and the charter no longer exists.  Topics such as professional licensing, manufacturing standards, consulting, and design software are best discussed in sci.engr or in the more specific engineering groups like sci.engr.civil.roads .  Posting of topics related specifically to the teaching of engineering dilute the focus of those groups and cause engineering education topics to be spread over the many groups perhaps arbitrarily chosen by the poster. This makes it very difficult for a new professor to find help from a broader more experienced audience.  CHARTER: sci.engr.education  The newsgroup sci.engr.education is a forum for issues related to the teaching and learning of engineering at all levels. Engineering education topics will include, but not be limited to, classroom techniques, administration, promotion and tenure, serving on committees, educational psychology, enrollment, recruitment, retention, textbooks, grant writing, accreditation, and examination design. Other topics might include recruiting, retaining, and guiding teaching and research assistants. It is not intended to be a technical forum where current research topics and results are discussed.  This is not intended to be a resource for students to get help on homework or projects. The teacher of the student best handles such requests. However, when well-formed with some forethought these requests have been welcome in the other sci.engr.* groups since they are often discipline-specific.  The group sci.engr.education will be a place for students to inquire into the nature of being an engineering student, especially an undergraduate inquiring about life in graduate school.  Advertisements for commercial products are discouraged.  The general guidelines of Usenet Posting will be followed.  END CHARTER.    sci.engr.education Final Voter list  NOTE:  This is not [to be used as] a mailing list.  The email addresses are posted only to help verify the interest poll.  Thank you.  Voted YES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ speirs [at] chebucto.ns.ca                                  Robert J.N. Speirs trevort [at] vianet.on.ca                                       Trevor Tymchuk kimdv [at] best.com                                               Kim DeVaughn eridani [at] databasix.com                                             Belinda mcclenon [at] erols.com                                           Bob McClenon smlucas [at] famvid.com                                           Steven Lucas ecb11 [at] cvip.fresno.com                                         Earl Bengel toejam_78 [at] hotmail.com                                     Toejamm Sniffer hollyking [at] inetarena.com                                  Brendan Van Horn ndallen [at] interlog.com                                          Nigel Allen wiz [at] lart.com                                                   Mike Craig fran_keeling [at] my-Deja.com                                     Fran Keeling mrkwscha [at] ix.netcom.com                                  Mark W. Schaeffer jepace [at] pobox.com                                            James E. Pace xanthian [at] well.com                                         Kent Paul Dolan Ekkehard.Uthke [at] gmx.de                                      Ekkehard Uthke bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk                                      Niels Olof Bouvin rajwi [at] engc.bu.edu                                         rajwinder singh hfung [at] csupomona.edu                                             Hank Fung honor.jones.passow [at] alum.mit.edu                              Honor Passow dscaldin [at] lynx.dac.neu.edu                          Dolores Scaldini-Klimm stewart [at] ceet.niu.edu                               James R Stewart, Ph.D. dutild [at] rpi.edu                                                David Dutil lagunc [at] rpi.edu                                        Corey A. Lagunowich mannik [at] rpi.edu                                                Ken Manning jkramer [at] sccs.swarthmore.edu                                 Joshua Kramer asterian [at] eecs.umich.edu                                    Andrew Sterian astewart [at] umr.edu                                             Andy Stewart robert.henry [at] unh.edu                                      Robert M. Henry robsmith [at] u.washington.edu                                 Robert P. Smith rufinus [at] mbe.ece.wisc.edu                                        J Rufinus porter.clark [at] msfc.nasa.gov                                J. Porter Clark fwbrown [at] bellsouth.net                                         Wayne Brown robert3447 [at] earthlink.net                                    Robert Marcom ellis [at] ftel.net                                                 Rick Ellis jmh [at] gmx.net                                                      Jan Haar wakelyn [at] pinn.net                                            N. T. Wakelyn flotte [at] stratos.net                                             Fred Lotte Peter-Lawrence.Montgomery [at] cwi.nl                      Peter L. Montgomery boud [at] rempt.xs4all.nl                                      Boudewijn Rempt rossde [at] acm.org                                                 David Ross kb5cng [at] amsat.org                                         R.L. Bo Thompson pmelo [at] fe.uc.pt                                                 Paulo Melo alex.dawson [at] uea.ac.uk                                         Alex Dawson  Voted NO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ru [at] cls.usask.ca                                               Ru Igarashi libertyeng [at] aol.com                                          Jan M. Harris sforsell [at] aol.com                                            Scott Forsell stainles [at] bga.com                                             Dwight Brown janus [at] cwo.com                                                 Keith Adams julesd [at] erols.com                                             Jules Dubois rockwallaby [at] erols.com                             Christopher B. Thompson evandro [at] geocities.com                                     Evandro Menezes bblair [at] home.com                                               Bruce Blair gprrspw [at] mindspring.com                                          G.P. Ryan olav [at] viking.mv.com                                        Olav Nieuwejaar source [at] netcom.com                                            David Harmon chriseb [at] nortelnetworks.com                                 Chris Ebenezer spam-eater [at] pobox.com                                           Karl Meyer naddy [at] mips.rhein-neckar.de                           Christian Weisgerber rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu                                           Richard Miller mmontcha [at] OregonVOS.net                                 Matthew Montchalin egruf [at] visi.net                                              Edward G. Ruf kate [at] haven.eyrie.org fulleraaron [at] ukonline.co.uk                                   Aaron Fuller  Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ luis0liveira [at] hotmail.com                                    Luis Oliveira chris [at] kzim.com                                Christopher Robin Zimmerman jefferys [at] logopolis.com                                      Jefferson Eng evert [at] royal.net                                              Evert Meulie peteralf [at] softhome.net                                     Peter Alfredsen  Invalid votes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ someone [at] somewhere.com                                        darren smith     ! Invalid address: user not known   --  Neil Crellin, UVV <[email protected]> 
 
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