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Language, Japanese ( sci.lang.japan )
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From [email protected] Sat Apr  4 03:18:09 1992 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1872 news.groups:40038 sci.lang:11611 soc.culture.china:63638 aus.culture.china:1021 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,aus.culture.china Path: rpi!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Garry Russel Burgess) Subject: RFD:  sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Keywords: chinese language mandarin Sender: [email protected] Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1992 04:57:40 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 12  There seems to be a void in the newsnet for people interested in learning the Chinese (Mandarin) language.  This newsgroup would help each other with questions of grammar, vocabulary, idiom etc about the Chinese language.  It's that simple.  Why does everyone else write pages and pages of nonsense. That's what I suggest, what do you net people think of the idea?  Why not call it: sci.lang.chinese  Garry  From [email protected] Tue Sep 12 10:46:12 1995 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1872 news.groups:40038 sci.lang:11611 soc.culture.china:63638 aus.culture.china:1021 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,aus.culture.china Path: rpi!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Garry Russel Burgess) Subject: RFD:  sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Keywords: chinese language mandarin Sender: [email protected] Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1992 04:57:40 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 12 Status: RO X-Status:   There seems to be a void in the newsnet for people interested in learning the Chinese (Mandarin) language.  This newsgroup would help each other with questions of grammar, vocabulary, idiom etc about the Chinese language.  It's that simple.  Why does everyone else write pages and pages of nonsense. That's what I suggest, what do you net people think of the idea?  Why not call it: sci.lang.chinese  Garry   From [email protected] Wed Oct  8 19:00:06 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: RFD: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:48:14 GMT Lines: 103 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:833                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                   unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.lang.chinese.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.  Newsgroup line: sci.lang.chinese	The Chinese language, both spoken and written.  RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese  There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the discussion of the scientific or historical study of human language(s).  Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese.  However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages.  These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system.  The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language.  A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc.  I have found it to be an invaluable resource for my own learning process.  I believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese.  Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-7 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set.  I believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China.  These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese.  CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese  Discussion of the scientific or historical study of the Chinese language including all dialects.  Other appropriate topics of discussion could include grammatical constructions, language learning tips, teaching opportunities, issues in translation, software/hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms; other related issues.  Note the "sci." prefix.  The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them.  Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library.  If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation.  Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group.  The general "nettiquete" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  alt.chinese.text news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.lang soc.culture.china soc.culture.hongkong soc.culture.singapore soc.culture.taiwan  Proponent: Steve Frampton <3srf(@)qlink.queensu.ca>  [From: header modified to thwart e-mail spam.  See .sig for details]  ----------------< LINUX: The choice of a GNU generation. >---------------- Steve Frampton   <3srf(@)qlink.queensu.ca>   http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3srf ----------- Please remove .FOOBAR from address before replying. ----------  From [email protected] Mon Oct 20 12:15:11 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Reply-To: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: 2nd RFD: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:09:59 GMT Lines: 140 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:875                       REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                   unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese  This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.lang.chinese.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below.  Newsgroup line: sci.lang.chinese	The Chinese language, both spoken and written.  CHANGES from previous RFD:  Several comments were made that the charter of the 1st RFD, as worded, did not sound as if it was appropriate for the sci.lang.* heirarchy.  It should be noted that the 1st wording was a proposed charter only, and the proponents made every effort to change the wording of the charter to answer the criticisms that were made.  The main change was a new listing of appropriate topics that are specific to Chinese linguistics.  Also, sections on Chinese character encoding, transcription schemes, and language usage were added to the charter to answer any questions people may have on these subjects.  RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese  There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s).  Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese.  However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages.  These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system.  The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language.  A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc.  I have found it to be an invaluable resource for my own learning process.  I believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese.  Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set.  I believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China.  These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese.  CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese  Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax;  language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues. Peripheral issues, such as software/hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms, would also be acceptable, but could be minimized by covering them in the FAQ.  Note the "sci." prefix.  The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them.  Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library.  If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation.  Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo. Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all.)  For cross-dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA)  should be used.  In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ.  Posting binaries is discouraged, but they might have a place when discussing the evolution of character forms, since there is no other way to show the various seal characters.  When possible, such images should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer to said images posted.  Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group.  The general "nettiquete" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese.  END CHARTER.  PROCEDURE:  This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.  All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.  This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process.  DISTRIBUTION:  alt.chinese.text alt.chinese.computing news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.lang soc.culture.china soc.culture.hongkong soc.culture.singapore soc.culture.taiwan  Proponent: Steve Frampton <3srf(@)qlink.queensu.ca> Proponent: Mike Wright   [Remember to remove the parenthesis around the "@" when sending e-mail to the proponents listed above.  Unfortunately SPAM makes this kind of thing necessary.]  ----------------< LINUX: The choice of a GNU generation. >---------------- Steve Frampton   <3srf(@)qlink.queensu.ca>   http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3srf ----------- Please remove .FOOBAR from address before replying. ----------  From [email protected] Tue Nov 11 12:07:14 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: CFV: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 2 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:45:09 GMT Lines: 182 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:930                       FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                   unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese  Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process, ask the votetaker.  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.  Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese	The Chinese language, both spoken and written.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 1 Dec 1997.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese  There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s).  Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese.  However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages.  These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system.  The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language.  A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc.  I have found it to be an invaluable resource for my own learning process.  I believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese.  Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions.  The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set.  I believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China.  These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese.  CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese  Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues. Peripheral issues, such as software/hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms, would also be acceptable, but could be minimized by covering them in the FAQ.  Note the "sci." prefix.  The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them.  Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library.  If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation.  Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo. Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all.)  For cross-dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA)  should be used.  In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ.  Posting binaries is discouraged, but they might have a place when discussing the evolution of character forms, since there is no other way to show the various seal characters.  When possible, such images should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer to said images posted.  Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group.  The general "nettiquete" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese.  END CHARTER.  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.  The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be verified, the ballot will be disallowed.  Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud. When in doubt, ask the votetaker.  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>. Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote. | | 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.chinese | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other | information) after the colon on the line below.  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  sci.lang.chinese  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997). PQ datestamp: 970324  --  Voting address    : [email protected]  From [email protected] Fri Nov 21 06:45:04 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 2 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:41:39 GMT Lines: 189 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:969                        LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)                   unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese  Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself.  Please read them before voting.  If you have questions about the voting process, ask the votetaker.  This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker.  It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker, and it is not to be placed on the World Wide Web.  Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone except the votetaker will be invalid.  Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese	The Chinese language, both spoken and written.  Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 1 Dec 1997.  This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese  There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s).  Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese.  However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages.  These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system.  The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language.  A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc.  I have found it to be an invaluable resource for my own learning process.  I believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese.  Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions.  The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set.  I believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China.  These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese.  CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese  Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues. Peripheral issues, such as software/hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms, would also be acceptable, but could be minimized by covering them in the FAQ.  Note the "sci." prefix.  The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them.  Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library.  If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation.  Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo. Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all.)  For cross-dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA)  should be used.  In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ.  Posting binaries is discouraged, but they might have a place when discussing the evolution of character forms, since there is no other way to show the various seal characters.  When possible, such images should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer to said images posted.  Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group.  The general "nettiquete" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese.  END CHARTER.  IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING  Only one vote is allowed per person or per account.  Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be listed in the final voting results post.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.  The use of spam blockers or other munged addresses will prevent you from receiving an acknowledgement of your vote.  If the address cannot be verified, the ballot will be disallowed.  Vote counting is automated, and failure to follow these directions may mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem.  It is your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.  The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute this CFV.  Instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud. When in doubt, ask the votetaker.  HOW TO VOTE:  Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and after the "END OF BALLOT" lines.  Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.  Please do not send the entire CFV back to me.  Fill in the ballot as shown below.  Please provide a valid name and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.  When finished, MAIL the ballot to: <[email protected]>. Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.  Examples of how to properly indicate your vote (do not vote here):    [ YES     ]  example.yes.vote   [ NO      ]  example.no.vote   [ ABSTAIN ]  example.abstention   [ CANCEL  ]  example.cancellation  DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.  If these instructions are unclear, please ask the votetaker.  ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Do not edit anything in this ballot, except to add your name and vote. | | 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.chinese | Official Usenet Voting Ballot  (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide a valid name, or your vote may be rejected.  Place | ONLY your name (i.e., do not include your e-mail address or any other | information) after the colon on the line below.  Voter name:  | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):   Your Vote   Newsgroup  ---------   ----------------------------------------------------------- [         ]  sci.lang.chinese  ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============  This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997). PQ datestamp: 970324  --  Voting address    : [email protected]  sci.lang.chinese Bounce List - These votes have been recorded ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]_AM_NOT_INTERESTED_IN_SPAM.xs4all.nl                     Boudewijn Rempt [email protected]                                                    Dong Liu [email protected]                                              Irina Rempt [email protected]                                        Michael Wang  From [email protected] Tue Dec  2 08:45:04 1997 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: David Bostwick <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: RESULT: sci.lang.chinese fails 87:20 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:33:18 GMT Lines: 226 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:987                                  RESULT             unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese fails 87:20  There were 87 YES votes and 20 NO votes, for a total of 107 valid votes. There was 1 abstain and 1 invalid vote.  For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.  There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may not be voted on again for six months.  Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese	The Chinese language, both spoken and written.  The voting period ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 1 Dec 1997.  This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.  Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]>  Votetaker: David Bostwick <[email protected]>  RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese  There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s).  Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese.  However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages.  These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system.  The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language.  A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc.  I have found it to be an invaluable resource for my own learning process.  I believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese.  Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions.  The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set.  I believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China.  These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese.  CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese  Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues. Peripheral issues, such as software/hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms, would also be acceptable, but could be minimized by covering them in the FAQ.  Note the "sci." prefix.  The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them.  Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library.  If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation.  Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo. Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all.)  For cross-dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA)  should be used.  In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ.  Posting binaries is discouraged, but they might have a place when discussing the evolution of character forms, since there is no other way to show the various seal characters.  When possible, such images should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer to said images posted.  Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group.  The general "nettiquete" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese.  END CHARTER.  sci.lang.chinese Final Vote Ack  Voted Yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected]                                           Steve Frampton [email protected]                                            Naoko Tomioka [email protected]                                               Sunny Lam [email protected]                                            Alastair Burt [email protected]                                     Aaron Morrison [email protected]                                         Stephanie da Silva [email protected]                                  Alan Shaw <[email protected]> [email protected]                                             Aaron Lav [email protected]                                               Berthil S. Moraal [email protected]_AM_NOT_INTERESTED_IN_SPAM.xs4all.nl                     Boudewijn Rempt [email protected]                                          Niels Olof Bouvin [email protected]                                   Christopher Robin Zimmerman [email protected]                                                Mike Wright [email protected]                                                Desmond Sin [email protected]                                               David E. Siegel [email protected]                                                   David Turrell [email protected]                                                      Dan [email protected]                                                    Dong Liu [email protected]                                                     Don Kirkman [email protected]                                                    Vincent Dugat [email protected]                                             Erik E. Peterson [email protected]                                           Ekkehard Uthke [email protected]                                                   Ewen Denney [email protected]                                                      Shi-min Fang [email protected]                                         Lars Sprute [email protected]                                               F.Baube [email protected]                                               Xiaojiang ma [email protected]                                            Greg Franklin [email protected]                                                  James Hammons [email protected]                                           Haifang Li [email protected]                                      Henry "Hank" Fung [email protected]                                       Heikki Kantola [email protected]                                                Henry Mak [email protected]                                                           Hao Ni [email protected]                                      Michael Welch [email protected]                                              Irina Rempt [email protected]                                                  Jimmy Hsu [email protected]                                                  Mid Ouyang [email protected]                                       Jim Honeychuck [email protected]                                               John Wilcock [email protected]                                         Johnson Kuo [email protected]                                                Jani Patokallio [email protected]                                                      angelo diaz [email protected]                                            Kevin R. Gowen, II [email protected]                                                    Kim DeVaughn [email protected]                                                 Kane Koo [email protected]                                                      lancelot [email protected]                                         Larry Treanor [email protected]                                              Steven Fox [email protected]                                                      Ken Lunde [email protected]                                          Dylan W.H. Sung [email protected]                                           Gerald B. Mathias [email protected]                                                Matt Miller [email protected]                                           Matt Gredley [email protected]                                                      Michael Grubb [email protected]                                              maohai huang [email protected]                                        Michael Wang [email protected]                                                    Min Eu [email protected]                                                         Albert Cla [email protected]                                                Ocrat Webmaster [email protected]                                             Olav Nieuwejaar [email protected]                                      Patrick Chew [email protected]                                              Trevor Tymchuk [email protected]                                                Patrick Hublou [email protected]                                              Paul Adams [email protected]              qc tang

| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, = [email protected] R.M.C.Ahn [email protected] Rick Harbaugh [email protected] Bert Rozowski [email protected] Renaud Thierry Lefebvre [email protected] J Rufinus [email protected] Scott Smith [email protected] Steve MacGregor [email protected] Jack Durst [email protected] Sven Spanne [email protected] Tak To [email protected] Micah Sittig [email protected] Thomas Chan [email protected] Bruce Tindall [email protected] Timothy Murphy [email protected] Shu Chih-hsiang [email protected] Geoff Waters [email protected] Wei-Hwa Huang [email protected] Wing C. Ng [email protected] Xia Yiyuan [email protected] Xiangwei Liu [email protected] Xiaoxian Zeng Voted No ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected] Bob Blanchard [email protected] Martin H. Booda [email protected] Chris Ebenezer [email protected] Chuck Hoffmann [email protected] David Robinson [email protected] Doug O'Brien [email protected] Greg Bacon [email protected] Jasmine Taylor [email protected] Jeffery D. Hunt, Crew Trainer, McDonald's [email protected] Joshua Kramer [email protected] Kevin Wayne Williams [email protected] Aaron Marquez [email protected] Christian Weisgerber [email protected] Neil Irving [email protected] Patrick J. LoPresti [email protected] Sam Johnson [email protected] Chris Hayes [email protected] Dwight Brown [email protected] Jason Steiner [email protected] Todd C. Lawson Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected] Richard Miller Votes in Error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [email protected] yky !Unverifiable ballot From [email protected] Sat Oct 10 05:55:54 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.text,alt.chinese.computing,sci.lang,sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: RFD: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:28:36 GMT Lines: 123 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10615 news.groups:297965 sci.lang:92428 sci.lang.japan:49392 soc.culture.china:378586 soc.culture.hongkong:230790 soc.culture.singapore:379457 soc.culture.taiwan:221023 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.lang.chinese. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: sci.lang.chinese The Chinese language, both spoken and written. RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s). Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese. However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages. These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated ideographic-based writing system. The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language. A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc. For many USENET readers, this group has proven to be an invaluable resource. We believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese. Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set. We believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China. These include Taiwan, Singapore, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese. Furthermore, there are many minority non-Chinese (non-Han) languages spoken in China that would dilute the thrust of the newsgroup if included. CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues such as the borrowing and preservation of Chinese vocabulary in non-Chinese languages. Peripheral issues, such as software/ hardware information for employing the written character set on computing platforms, would also be acceptable, but could be minimized by covering them in the FAQ. Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them. Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation. Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo). Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all.) For cross-dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA) should be used. In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ. Posting of binaries is discouraged, but they might have a place when discussing the evolution of character forms, since there is no other way to show the various seal characters. However, when possible, such images should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer to said images posted. Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. The general "netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: alt.chinese.text alt.chinese.computing news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.lang sci.lang.japan soc.culture.china soc.culture.hongkong soc.culture.singapore soc.culture.taiwan Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]> Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> From [email protected] Tue Oct 27 06:15:53 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.text,alt.chinese.computing,sci.lang,sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: 2nd RFD: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:02:13 GMT Lines: 126 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10647 news.groups:463389 sci.lang:93815 sci.lang.japan:50267 soc.culture.china:380256 soc.culture.hongkong:231603 soc.culture.singapore:385602 soc.culture.taiwan:222069 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup sci.lang.chinese. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below. CHANGES from previous RFD: Added prohibition of binaries. Newsgroup line: sci.lang.chinese The Chinese language, both spoken and written. RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s). Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese. However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages. These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated morphosyllabic writing system. The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language. A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc. For many USENET readers, this group has proven to be an invaluable resource. We believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese. Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set. We believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China. These include Taiwanese, Singaporeans, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese. Furthermore, there are many minority non-Chinese (non-Han) languages spoken in China that would dilute the thrust of the newsgroup if included. CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues such as the borrowing and preservation of Chinese vocabulary in non-Chinese languages. Peripheral issues, such as discussions of how to learn the language, or of how to use it on various computer platforms, are also welcome, but posters on these topics should be especially careful to check the FAQs and read the group for awhile first, to avoid asking repetitious questions. Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them. Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation. Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo). Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all. For cross- dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA) should be used. In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ. Posting of binaries is prohibited. If images of characters are required as part of a discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer (URL) to said images posted. Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. The general "netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: alt.chinese.text alt.chinese.computing news.announce.newgroups news.groups sci.lang sci.lang.japan soc.culture.china soc.culture.hongkong soc.culture.singapore soc.culture.taiwan Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]> Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> From [email protected] Tue Nov 24 18:30:09 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: CFV: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 17 Dec 1998 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:22:55 GMT Lines: 185 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10707 news.groups:301597 sci.lang:94681 sci.lang.japan:52291 soc.culture.china:383253 soc.culture.hongkong:232844 soc.culture.singapore:394527 soc.culture.taiwan:223938 FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid. Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese The Chinese language, both spoken and written. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 16 Dec 1998. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]> Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s). Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese. However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages. These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated morphosyllabic writing system. The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language. A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc. For many USENET readers, this group has proven to be an invaluable resource. We believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese. Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set. We believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China. These include Taiwanese, Singaporeans, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese. Furthermore, there are many minority non-Chinese (non-Han) languages spoken in China that would dilute the thrust of the newsgroup if included. CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues such as the borrowing and preservation of Chinese vocabulary in non-Chinese languages. Peripheral issues, such as discussions of how to learn the language, or of how to use it on various computer platforms, are also welcome, but posters on these topics should be especially careful to check the FAQs and read the group for awhile first, to avoid asking repetitious questions. Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them. Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation. Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo). Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all. For cross- dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA) should be used. In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ. Posting of binaries is prohibited. If images of characters are required as part of a discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer (URL) to said images posted. Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. The general "netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese. END CHARTER. IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose. Do *not* distribute this CFV; instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud. This is a public vote: All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post. The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle. At most one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote. Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker. Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist). Votes from nonexistent accounts are also invalid, and the votetaker will reject any "munged" address he cannot decipher immediately. Please direct any questions to the votetaker at <[email protected]>. HOW TO VOTE: Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me! Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your REAL NAME and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot. Examples of how to properly indicate your vote: [ YES ] example.yes.vote [ NO ] example.no.vote [ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention [ CANCEL ] example.cancellation DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot. When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < [email protected] > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line. If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem. You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly. If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv. ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.chinese | Official Usenet Voting Ballot (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Place | ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other | information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line: Voter name: | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name): Your Vote Newsgroup --------- ----------------------------------------------------------- [ ] sci.lang.chinese ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ============== DISTRIBUTION: In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists: Mailing list name: Chinese Submission address: [email protected] Request address (optional): [email protected] This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 14 1997). PQ datestamp: 980322 -- Voting address: [email protected] From [email protected] Mon Dec 7 22:00:30 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.lang.chinese Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Expires: 17 Dec 1998 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 05:52:36 GMT Lines: 189 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10736 news.groups:302177 sci.lang:95125 sci.lang.japan:53039 soc.culture.china:383935 soc.culture.hongkong:233200 soc.culture.singapore:396352 soc.culture.taiwan:224355 LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid. Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese The Chinese language, both spoken and written. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 16 Dec 1998. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]> Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s). Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese. However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages. These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated morphosyllabic writing system. The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language. A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc. For many USENET readers, this group has proven to be an invaluable resource. We believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese. Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set. We believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China. These include Taiwanese, Singaporeans, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese. Furthermore, there are many minority non-Chinese (non-Han) languages spoken in China that would dilute the thrust of the newsgroup if included. CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues such as the borrowing and preservation of Chinese vocabulary in non-Chinese languages. Peripheral issues, such as discussions of how to learn the language, or of how to use it on various computer platforms, are also welcome, but posters on these topics should be especially careful to check the FAQs and read the group for awhile first, to avoid asking repetitious questions. Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them. Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation. Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo). Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all. For cross- dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA) should be used. In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ. Posting of binaries is prohibited. If images of characters are required as part of a discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer (URL) to said images posted. Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. The general "netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese. END CHARTER. IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose. Do *not* distribute this CFV; instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud. This is a public vote: All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post. The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle. At most one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote. Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker. Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist). Votes from nonexistent accounts are also invalid, and the votetaker will reject any "munged" address he cannot decipher immediately. Please direct any questions to the votetaker at <[email protected]>. HOW TO VOTE: Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me! Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your REAL NAME and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot. Examples of how to properly indicate your vote: [ YES ] example.yes.vote [ NO ] example.no.vote [ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention [ CANCEL ] example.cancellation DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot. When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < [email protected] > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line. If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem. You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly. If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv. ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: sci.lang.chinese | Official Usenet Voting Ballot (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Place | ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other | information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line: Voter name: | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name): Your Vote Newsgroup --------- ----------------------------------------------------------- [ ] sci.lang.chinese ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ============== DISTRIBUTION: In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists: Mailing list name: Chinese Submission address: [email protected] Request address (optional): [email protected] sci.lang.chinese Bounce List - Please contact me about your vote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [email protected] Mark This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 14 1997). PQ datestamp: 980322 -- Voting address: [email protected] From [email protected] Thu Dec 17 23:45:36 1998 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.chinese.computing,alt.chinese.text,sci.lang,sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.taiwan Subject: RESULT: sci.lang.chinese fails 103:11 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> Supersedes: <[email protected]> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: [email protected] Archive-Name: sci.lang.chinese Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:34:48 GMT Lines: 246 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10755 news.groups:302346 sci.lang:95680 sci.lang.japan:53767 soc.culture.china:384226 soc.culture.hongkong:233309 soc.culture.singapore:397202 soc.culture.taiwan:224568 RESULT unmoderated group sci.lang.chinese fails 103:11 There were 103 YES votes and 11 NO votes, for a total of 114 valid votes. There were 3 abstentions and 3 invalid ballots. For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. A five day discussion period follows this announcement. Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may not be voted on again for six months. Newsgroups line: sci.lang.chinese The Chinese language, both spoken and written. The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 16 Dec 1998. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: Mike Wright <[email protected]> Proponent: Steve Frampton <[email protected]> Votetaker: Neil Crellin <[email protected]> RATIONALE: sci.lang.chinese There exists the sci.lang group, which was chartered for discussions about the scientific or historical study of human language(s). Presumably this would cover all languages in existence, including Chinese. However, there are issues with the Chinese language that are less prevalent with other languages. These include the diverse dialects that exist, as well as the complicated morphosyllabic writing system. The sci.lang.japan group exists for the discussion of issues related to the Japanese language. A variety of topics have been discussed which include the origins and history of the language, grammar, and writing system, language learning tips, software and hardware solutions for using the writing system on computers, etc. For many USENET readers, this group has proven to be an invaluable resource. We believe people interested in the Chinese language would benefit from the proposed group, sci.lang.chinese. Currently, aside from sci.lang, there are no proper or popular forums in which to hold such discussions. The alt.chinese.language.* heirarchy is not as widely propogated as the Big-8 groups, and more importantly, are intended for actual postings in the Chinese character set. We believe sci.lang.chinese would be more appropriate than sci.lang.china (in keeping with the naming convention that sci.lang.japan struck) because Chinese is spoken by not just people in China. These include Taiwanese, Singaporeans, and of course Chinese speakers who are not natively Chinese. Furthermore, there are many minority non-Chinese (non-Han) languages spoken in China that would dilute the thrust of the newsgroup if included. CHARTER: sci.lang.chinese Discussion of the scientific study of the Chinese language, including all dialects. Appropriate topics of discussion would include syntax; language acquisition in children and adults; the historical development of the language, including reconstruction of earlier stages of the language; relationships among dialects; the development of the writing system; and related linguistic issues such as the borrowing and preservation of Chinese vocabulary in non-Chinese languages. Peripheral issues, such as discussions of how to learn the language, or of how to use it on various computer platforms, are also welcome, but posters on these topics should be especially careful to check the FAQs and read the group for awhile first, to avoid asking repetitious questions. Note the "sci." prefix. The main concern here is with _facts_ and theories accounting for them. Like all "sci." newsgroups, sci.lang.chinese is not meant to substitute for a dictionary or even a college library. If the answer to your question can be looked up easily, then do so rather than using the net. If you don't have a library, then ask away, but explain your situation. Discussions will probably be held primarily in the English language, however postings in Chinese are welcome, and can be posted in characters, using either the Big5 or GB encoding schemes (or both), or by using an appropriate romanization scheme when discussing a single dialect (such as Pinyin for Mandarin, or the common missionary system for Holo). Romanization and an English translation will aid the understanding of those whose systems will not display any Chinese at all. For cross- dialect discussions, or for discussions of phonetics, an ASCII version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (ASCII IPA) should be used. In order to promote uniformity and ease of understanding, information on ASCII IPA and tables of equivalence for various romanization systems will be made available on a Web page as part of the sci.lang.chinese FAQ. Posting of binaries is prohibited. If images of characters are required as part of a discussion, they should be put up at an FTP or Web site with a pointer (URL) to said images posted. Commercial advertisements, political discussions (except where applicable to the politics of language), flames, and such nonsense are not appropriate in this group. The general "netiquette" FAQs posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to sci.lang.chinese. END CHARTER. sci.lang.chinese Final Voter list Voted YES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ schwaigl [at] eunet.at Clemens Schwaighofer e900433 [at] anu.edu.au sean zhu cfrancis [at] mars.eu.rmit.edu.au Chris Francis detienne [at] bgsh.ucl.ac.be Claude Detienne dany.steyaert [at] ping.be Dany Steyaert 3srf [at] qlink.queensu.ca Steve Frampton srtxg [at] chanae.alphanet.ch Pablo "Yanagi" Saratxaga Christopher.Plummer [at] lp.dmx.epfl.ch Christopher Plummer frankw [at] sme.ch Frank Wittwer james.dew [at] bj.col.com.cn James E. Dew alanshaw [at] alanshaw.com Alan Shaw collins [at] alphabet.com Price Collins Caedmontwo [at] aol.com Caedmon Parsons Dscnectd [at] aol.com Matt Rigdon Julizhang [at] aol.com Juli Zhang mdecerbo [at] bbn.com Mike Decerbo kimdv [at] best.com Kim DeVaughn ngreen [at] btinternet.com Nigel Greenwood FPerezBarreiro [at] compuserve.com F.Perez-Barreiro hammons [at] crl.com James Hammons booda [at] datasync.com Martin H. Booda dbeecher [at] erols.com Dominic Beecher julesd [at] erols.com Jules Dubois bjv [at] herbison.com B.J. Herbison robertperrett [at] hotmail.com Robert Perrett cmr [at] iisc.com Charles Richmond gregfra [at] iname.com Greg Franklin cwrea [at] shell1.interlog.com Chris W. Rea noel [at] jpmorgan.com Noel Hunt yumitori [at] montana.com Ron Martino fred [at] moremagic.com Fred Baube(tm) olav [at] viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar gatsby2 [at] ix.netcom.com Adam Paul Bronson ptholfsen [at] netos.com Paul Tholfsen ocrat [at] ocrat.com Ocrat Webmaster at [at] dial.oleane.com Alain Thivillon Emilie.Danna [at] dial.oleane.com Emilie Danna dc [at] panix.com David W. Crawford tindall [at] panix.com Bruce Tindall mabr12 [at] dial.pipex.com Dylan W.H. Sung Dan.Crevier [at] pobox.com Dan Crevier sllee [at] columbus.rr.com Siu-Leung Lee goertzen [at] rrnet.com Stanley G. Goertzen arielle [at] Taronga.COM Stephanie da Silva darryls [at] westest.com Darryl Simmons brigitte [at] xnet.com Brigitte Yves albe [at] lvs.informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Alexander Bell patchew [at] uclink4.berkeley.edu Patrick Chew takoyaki [at] cco.caltech.edu Micah Sittig whuang [at] ugcs.caltech.edu Wei-Hwa Huang tc31 [at] cornell.edu Thomas Chan hfung [at] CSUPomona.Edu Hank Fung lrb5 [at] duke.edu Luke Bergmann gte500i [at] prism.gatech.edu Patrick Leo Cotrona mathias [at] hawaii.edu Gerald B. Mathias mithomps [at] indiana.edu Mikael Thompson af5 [at] quest.cc.purdue.edu Wendy Lin dadi [at] troi.cc.rochester.edu Dan Ding zsh [at] cs.rochester.edu Shenghuo Zhu rsimmon [at] rci.rutgers.edu R. VanNess Simmons j-wicentowski [at] uchicago.edu Joe Wicentowski bingfu [at] usc.edu bingfu johnwcha [at] scf-fs.usc.edu Wenkuang Chang SLQTN [at] cc.usu.edu David Mortensen marsmc [at] mail.utexas.edu charles marshall mcarthur rufinus [at] mbe.ece.wisc.edu J Rufinus hyde [at] ctv.es Albert Cla jpatokal [at] iki.fi Jani Patokallio delarobertie [at] univ-artois.fr Pierre de La Robertie neyret [at] wanadoo.fr Laurent Neyret argentum [at] tin.it Talnikov Alexei ganzo [at] tin.it Mikhail Talnikov svtalnik [at] tin.it Svetlana Talnikova 51920536 [at] 3web.net Achim Nolcken Lohse jim [at] blckhrse.clark.net James D. Beard mottw [at] gte.net Elwood Mott crobato [at] kuentos.guam.net Christopher Robato Yao thicks [at] mailbag.net Tracy Hicks darwin [at] mbay.net Mike Wright jonboy [at] onlink.net Trevor Tymchuk spynx [at] diamond.sierra.net Jack Durst chriswong [at] softhome.net Chris Wong dcmsin [at] HK.Super.NET Desmond Sin waters [at] HK.Super.NET Geoff Waters Berthil [at] dlw.nl Berthil S. Moraal mastik [at] tch.fgg.eur.nl Frits Mastik Yzuo [at] kub.nl Yan Zuo boud [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Boudewijn Rempt irina [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Irina Rempt pei [at] chinapage.org Ming L. Pei ijon [at] forum2.org Ijon Tichy fang [at] xys.org Shi-min Fang helen_b_sg [at] mtu-net.ru Elena Boldyreva sommar [at] algonet.se Erland Sommarskog yeogk [at] comp.nus.edu.sg YEO Gee Kin mayawen [at] mail.mrbo.com.tw Maya Wen
>
> | Insert = alexchang [at] ms1.url.com.tw Alex Chang jakob [at] saturn.yzu.edu.tw Jakob Dempsey bmark [at] gcn.net.tw Bryan Mark merlin [at] cvnet.co.uk Darren Wyn Rees ben [at] hayamasa.demon.co.uk Ben Kasmin Bullock philh [at] vision25.demon.co.uk Philip Hunt bduncan [at] salem.k12.mo.us William E. Duncan Voted NO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown david [at] farrar.com David Farrar celticwiccan [at] hotmail.com Peter Byron alderson [at] netcom.com Richard M. Alderson III chriseb [at] nortelnetworks.com Chris Ebenezer daver [at] teleport.com D Reynolds naddy [at] mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber jlowther [at] students.acusd.edu John Lowther meg [at] Steam.Stanford.EDU Meg Worley rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller trapat [at] infonie.fr Patrice Tran Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DESiegel [at] aol.com D. E. Siegel guymacon [at] deltanet.com [email protected] (Guy Macon) chris [at] kzim.com Christopher Robin Zimmerman Invalid votes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sp2XXsp [at] yahoo.com Mark ! Undeliverable address - This user does not have a yahoo.com account john [at] tradoc.fr John Wilcock ! Disqualified - distributed copy of CFV mzelez [at] sgh.waw.pl Mateusz Zeleznik ! No vote statement in message -- Neil Crellin, UVV <[email protected]>
 
USENET FACT: Lurker
A person who reads/browses newsgroups but does not actively post.
 
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