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From [email protected] Thu Aug 20 10:08:53 1992
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From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: RFD: sci.aeronautics.airliners
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:42:42 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 182

             REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS

PROPOSED CHARTER:

    Moderated-discussion group on airliner technology, concentrating on
    the design, construction, performance, human factors, operation, and
    histories of transport-category aircraft.


DISCUSSION PERIOD:

    0000 CST August 19, 1992 through 0000 CST September 18, 1992.

    Following the discussion period, if there appears to be support,
    I will issue a CALL-FOR-VOTES (CFV).  
    
    This RFD will be re-posted in two weeks.

    Please wade through the following to answer the mini-survey at
    the end.


WHY?

A month ago, Geoff Peck issued a comprehensive re-organization proposal for 
rec.aviation, after somewhat intense consultation with quite a few people, 
including myself.  Simultaneously, I ran a survey on a variety of proposed 
newsgroups, to try to get a "straw poll" of how strongly users might 
support the various groups (and the re-organization concept, in general).

The discussion-period showed there was fairly widespread interest in an
airliners newsgroup.  Even though, on average, airliner traffic comprises 
about 7% of the total traffic on rec.aviation, over a quarter of the survey
respondents expressed a strong interest in the creation of an airliners 
group.

Currently, airliner traffic is distributed among rec.travel.air, 
sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, and rec.aviation, in declining order of 
frequency.  Some consolidation of this type of traffic is clearly needed.


Going into the discussion period, I believed that the user-base for an 
airliners group was too tenuous for it to work.  I have changed that 
opinion.  However, the question of which forum is more appropriate for
an airliner sub-group lingers: sci.aeronautics, or rec.aviation.  I feel 
the correct choice is sci.aeronautics, for the following reasons:

    1.  The "technical" aspects of the proposed charter clearly match the
    charter of sci.aeronautics; it would be a "case-study" group.  When
    sci.aeronautics was created, "aeronautics" was very carefully chosen
    as its name, to give the charter more breadth than "aerodynamics" or 
    other similar "specialty" terms would imply.  It was intended to deal 
    with the *technology* of aerospace, in both theoretical and practical
    applications.

    2.  Sci.aeronautics reaches more technical sites than rec.aviation,
    Of particular concern is the fact that many aerospace companies simply 
    do not import rec.*.  This means that by including an airliner group in 
    rec.*, we would automatically be excluding many of the people the group 
    needs the most, in order to work.

    3.  In a similar vein, many educational sites do not receive rec.*.
    Especially with an increasing number of high schools developing their
    own sub-nets, experimenting with the use of usenet in a teaching
    environment, creating a useful, low-noise group under the sci.*
    hierarchy could have far-reaching ramifications.
    
    4.  Rec.aviation's forte has always been *general* aviation: that's
    what the group's for, and that's why it's in the rec.* hierarchy.
    Rec.aviation has been characterized by technical, specialized traffic,
    *but* the orientation strongly remains *general* aviation (general 
    aviation is the FAA's designation for non-commercial, non-military 
    aviation).  General aviation is what the rec.aviation users *do*, 
    what they *fly*, what they *know* about.  It is a group that any 
    conscientious private pilot should read.
    
    However, specialized, technical discussions, outside the scope of 
    "classical" general aviation, have tended to be relatively low-signal, 
    intermittent, and somewhat repetitious.  These discussions do not 
    necessarily belong in rec.aviation, any more than discussions on, say, 
    ticket-prices do.  When alternative forums exist for this "specialist"
    traffic, they should be utilized, and this is the case with 
    sci.aeronautics.
    
    5.  For the many people not interested in "flying," per se, but only
    *technology*, sci.aeronautics is the logical place to look for
    technical  discussions of this type.

    6.  "Sci," in general, is supposed to get people to think more clearly
    about subjects, before they post.  This is obviously not always the
    case (and I'm *occasionally* an offender :-)), but the idea's there.


I propose that sci.aeronautics.airliners be created as a *moderated* group.
Why?  Simply because these discussions sometimes create a *lot* of
noise.  For example, some twenty non-informative posts resulted from the 
crash of a USAir jetliner earlier this year; over half of them were "what do 
you think happened?" queries, within a day of the crash.  Earlier, over *50*
posts were dedicated to the "Fat Guy on Southwest" thread, about an
overweight passenger getting bumped.  And 28 posts resulted from one
person asking for help identifying an unknown tail logo he saw at an
airport--all replying with much the same information.  

I have nothing against the people who ask and answer these questions: it's 
just not a very useful utilization of resources, overall, and is, occasion-
ally, an *abysmal* utilization of resources.  Thus, moderation of some kind 
is called for, if not to guide the *qualitative* traffic, then to at least 
cut down on the *repetition*.

I would love to do it: however, inasmuch as I tend to step on too many
toes (:-)), I propose Karl Swartz.  Karl has contributed a large number of
highly informative discussions to the various airliners groups over
the years.  He's literate, well-informed, level-headed, and can be
trusted to do a good job.  He's interested in both "technical" issues, and
more "enthusiast-ish" issues, which would tend to ensure a fair balance of
posts.  He's indicated that he would use a very flexible moderation style, 
essentially reposting all messages until a "noise threshold" is reached.  
He's also expressed interest in the "co-moderation" concept, so as to keep 
the group alive, if any single moderator should go off on vacation or be 
indisposed; this can also be used for "load-shedding" if it should evolve 
into a high-volume group.


"What about the rec.aviation re-organization?" you might ask.  

Geoff's proposal is about to go to a formal vote.  Well, the bottom line is: 
he has an alternate take on this.  He feels that an airliner group in 
rec.aviation could work, and it will appear on his CFV.  I respectfully 
disagree with his decision to include it, but wish him the best of luck with 
most of the remainder of his proposal.  

The reason I'm posting this RFD at this late point is that I don't feel the
issue has been sufficiently discussed, nor that the interests of "non-
rec.aviation" viewpoints on the net have been sufficiently considered. 


To make a long story short, I've been pushing for an airliners group
since 1985.  I still have misgivings as to whether one would work,
but if we're going to establish the framework, I think it should be one
that will produce the "best," most technical, low-noise discussions, one
which will clearly delineate engineering/human factors/operations 
discussions, and one which will be flexible enough to let us grow into, as 
more and more aerospace personnel join the net, and the character of the 
traffic changes from speculative/academic, to applications-oriented.

I feel that sci.aeronautics.airliners is the only logical choice, while
a *rec* group is a big step in the wrong direction, and an unmoderated rec
group even worse.


Since the rec.aviation re-organization discussion period failed to address
this issue clearly (one among a dozen and a half proposed groups), I'm 
hoping this RFD will, and will influence the vote in favor of an eventual 
CFV for the sci.aeronautics.airliners group, AND incline users to vote 
against the rec.aviation.airliners group, in the short term.  

Therefore, to kick off THIS discussion period, I ask you to answer the
following four questions:

    1. Do you support an airliners group at ALL?

    2. Do you feel it should be under sci.aeronautics?

    3. Do you feel it should be under rec.aviation?

    4. Do you feel that an airliners group should be moderated?

Just reply to this message, or send email to 
[email protected]  Any additional commentary is, as 
always, most welcome.

As with the rec.aviation survey, this set of questions is non-binding:
it's solely to help me take a straw poll of the relative support of the
two proposals.  You will have an opportunity to issue a formal vote
for or against the group if this proposal goes to a call-for-votes in
four weeks' time.

Please direct all follow-ups to news.groups.
-- 
Robert Dorsett
[email protected]
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

From [email protected] Tue Sep 29 09:38:17 1992
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Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: CFV: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: poster
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:24:41 GMT
Approved: [email protected]
Lines: 91

                   CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS

PROPOSED CHARTER:

    A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design, 
    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories 
    of transport-category airplanes.


HOW TO VOTE:

    To register a vote, send an email message to:
        [email protected]

    Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, SHOULD be created.
    
    Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, should NOT be created.
    
    Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).

    To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message 
    to: 

        [email protected]

    Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes 
    will be counted.


VOTING PERIOD:

    0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.

    This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements
    of votes.
    
    Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to
    all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes 
    than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the
    group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.
    

RATIONALE

This group should be created for the following reasons:

    1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.

    2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it
        isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps 
        sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and 
        rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.

This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:

    1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than
        rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some
        level of participation by those in the industry is very important 
        for the group to work, in the long term.

    2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original
        charter and intent.

    3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation: 
        rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general 
        aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many
        users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized, 
        technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend 
        to bypass the group.
        
    4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education 
        networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any 
        other hierarchy.

The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels 
various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,  
especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.

Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has 
volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his 
moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only 
"clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears. 

Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in 
archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be 
archived, elsewhere).

I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added, 
if the need arises.

From [email protected] Wed Oct  7 13:46:05 1992
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Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: 2nd CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated
Followup-To: poster
Approved: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:49:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Lines: 185

                   CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS

PROPOSED CHARTER:

    A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design, 
    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories 
    of transport-category airplanes.


HOW TO VOTE:

    To register a vote, send an email message to:
        [email protected]

    Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, SHOULD be created.
    
    Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, should NOT be created.
    
    Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).

    To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message 
    to: 

        [email protected]

    Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes 
    will be counted.


VOTING PERIOD:

    0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.

    This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements
    of votes.
    
    Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to
    all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes 
    than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the
    group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.
    

RATIONALE

This group should be created for the following reasons:

    1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.

    2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it
        isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps 
        sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and 
        rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.

This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:

    1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than
        rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some
        level of participation by those in the industry is very important 
        for the group to work, in the long term.

    2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original
        charter and intent.

    3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation: 
        rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general 
        aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many
        users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized, 
        technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend 
        to bypass the group.
        
    4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education 
        networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any 
        other hierarchy.

The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels 
various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,  
especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.

Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has 
volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his 
moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only 
"clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears. 

Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in 
archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be 
archived, elsewhere).

I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added, 
if the need arises.

-----------------------------


Initial vote acknowledgement:

"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock"
[email protected]                Scott Jacobson
[email protected]                
[email protected]                   Ed Miller
[email protected]                Geoff Miller
[email protected]                   Tony Heatwole
[email protected]          
KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES
[email protected]          
[email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT
RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin
[email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of 
[email protected]              Andy Hogben
[email protected]                Steve Altus
[email protected]                     Bob Bell
[email protected]                            Jim Ault
[email protected]                
[email protected]                    Keith Barr
[email protected]          Ben Davis
[email protected]                 Ann Berner
[email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau
[email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt
[email protected] 
[email protected]                              Christopher Davis
[email protected]                   Dave Goodman
[email protected]              David Masters
dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario
[email protected]                  Don Montgomery
[email protected]               Kevin Driscoll
[email protected]                     
[email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson"
[email protected]          
[email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya
[email protected]           Stephen Fenwick
[email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse
geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck
[email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 GUEST 9
[email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty
[email protected]             
[email protected]                  Ken Hoyme
[email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose
[email protected]            Kenneth Ingham
[email protected]                 John Clear
[email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger
[email protected]                    Karl Swartz
[email protected]               Ken Koellner
[email protected]              
[email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson
[email protected]           Leon Shieh
matwood%[email protected]              
[email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy
[email protected]                      Pat McManus
[email protected]                         Martyn Thomas
[email protected]                 Michael Bain
[email protected]               
[email protected]                   
[email protected]                      Judah Milgram
[email protected]               Griff Miller X7114
[email protected]                      William Moxley
[email protected]                        Nigel Gamble
[email protected]                          Pete Babic
[email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan
[email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi
pedregal%[email protected]             
[email protected]            Phil Sutherland
[email protected]            Joel Plutchak
[email protected]                         Pete Mellor
[email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt
[email protected]              "Paul S. Miner"
[email protected]               Paul Raveling
rdd                                      Robert Dorsett
[email protected]             Richard H. Miller
[email protected]                           
[email protected]              ruman
[email protected]               Duckie Shiau
[email protected]                         
[email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies""
[email protected]                            Urban F
[email protected]                       Vic Vaivads
[email protected]       Axel Wagner
[email protected]                          Carl Watkins
[email protected]                      Michael Weiss
[email protected]             Werner Uhrig
[email protected]           Michael Woodhams
[email protected]                   Steve Wolf

From [email protected] Tue Oct 13 12:51:17 1992
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Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners moderated
Followup-To: poster
Approved: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: UTexas
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:41:57 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Lines: 226

                   CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS

PROPOSED CHARTER:

    A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design, 
    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories 
    of transport-category airplanes.


HOW TO VOTE:

    To register a vote, send an email message to:
        [email protected]

    Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, SHOULD be created.
    
    Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, should NOT be created.
    
    Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).

    To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message 
    to: 

        [email protected]

    Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes 
    will be counted.


VOTING PERIOD:

    0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.

    This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements
    of votes.
    
    Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to
    all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes 
    than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the
    group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.
    

RATIONALE

This group should be created for the following reasons:

    1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.

    2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it
        isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps 
        sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and 
        rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.

This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:

    1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than
        rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some
        level of participation by those in the industry is very important 
        for the group to work, in the long term.

    2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original
        charter and intent.

    3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation: 
        rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general 
        aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many
        users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized, 
        technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend 
        to bypass the group.
        
    4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education 
        networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any 
        other hierarchy.

The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels 
various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,  
especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.

Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has 
volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his 
moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only 
"clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears. 

Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in 
archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be 
archived, elsewhere).

I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added, 
if the need arises.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote acknowledgement: votes received through 0000 CST, October 15, 1992:

"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock"
[email protected]                Scott Jacobson
[email protected]                    
[email protected]                
[email protected]                   Ed Miller
[email protected]               
[email protected]                Geoff Miller
[email protected]                   Tony Heatwole
[email protected]             
[email protected]          
KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES
[email protected]          
[email protected]                Bob Paver
[email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT
RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin
[email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of 
[email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina
[email protected]              Andy Hogben
[email protected]                Steve Altus
[email protected]                     Bob Bell
[email protected]                            Jim Ault
[email protected]                
[email protected]                    Keith Barr
[email protected]          Ben Davis
[email protected]                 Ann Berner
[email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau
[email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt
[email protected]                    Mike Brooks
[email protected] 
[email protected]                Christophe Pettus
[email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis"
[email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo
[email protected]                              Christopher Davis
[email protected]                            Clive Dawson
[email protected] 
[email protected]                   Dave Goodman
[email protected]              David Masters
[email protected]                    Del Armstrong
[email protected]                        Diana G.
dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario
[email protected]                     David Murphy
[email protected]                  Don Montgomery
[email protected]                       Drieux
[email protected]               Kevin Driscoll
[email protected]                     
[email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson"
[email protected]          
[email protected]                            Erik Hedberg
[email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya
[email protected]           Stephen Fenwick
[email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald
[email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse
[email protected]                       "gary"
geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck
[email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury
[email protected]                       Greg Lyon
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 GUEST 9
[email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty
[email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala
[email protected]             
[email protected]                  Ken Hoyme
[email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose
[email protected]            Kenneth Ingham
[email protected]                 John Clear
[email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger
[email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover
[email protected]                          Joakim Laine
[email protected]          
[email protected]                     
[email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard
[email protected]                    Karl Swartz
[email protected]               Ken Koellner
[email protected]              
[email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson
[email protected]           Leon Shieh
[email protected]                           Larry Smith
[email protected]                 Mark Flanagan
matwood%[email protected]              
[email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy
[email protected]DU                      Pat McManus
[email protected]                         Martyn Thomas
[email protected]                 Michael Bain
[email protected]            Mark Barnett
[email protected]               
[email protected]                   
[email protected]                      Judah Milgram
[email protected]               Griff Miller X7114
[email protected]                      William Moxley
[email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba"
[email protected]                        William Johnson
[email protected]                     Peter Newton
[email protected]                        Nigel Gamble
[email protected]                      Michael Chang
[email protected]                          Pete Babic
[email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan
[email protected]                Michael T. Palmer
[email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi
[email protected]                        Paulo Santos
pedregal%[email protected]             
[email protected]            Phil Sutherland
[email protected]            Joel Plutchak
[email protected]                         Pete Mellor
[email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt
[email protected]              "Paul S. Miner"
[email protected]               Paul Raveling
rdd                                      Robert Dorsett
[email protected]                Robert Dorsett
[email protected]             Richard H. Miller
[email protected]                           
[email protected]              ruman
[email protected]               Duckie Shiau
skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen
[email protected]    Stefano Pagiola
[email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke"
[email protected]                         
[email protected]                         
[email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies""
[email protected]     
[email protected]                            Urban F
[email protected]                       Vic Vaivads
[email protected]       Axel Wagner
[email protected]                          Carl Watkins
[email protected]               
[email protected]                      Michael Weiss
[email protected]             Werner Uhrig
[email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo
[email protected]           Michael Woodhams
[email protected]                   Steve Wolf

From [email protected] Thu Oct 22 21:18:27 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2865 news.groups:58172 sci.aeronautics:5081 rec.aviation.misc:236 rec.travel.air:5281 rec.aviation.simulators:247
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.travel.air,rec.aviation.simulators
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: 4th CFV and VOTE ACK: sci.aeronautics.airliners
Followup-To: poster
Approved: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1992 23:01:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Lines: 260

                   CALL FOR VOTES: SCI.AERONAUTICS.AIRLINERS

PROPOSED CHARTER:

    A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design, 
    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories 
    of transport-category airplanes.


HOW TO VOTE:

    To register a vote, send an email message to:
        [email protected]

    Include the word "Yes" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, SHOULD be created.
    
    Include the word "No" in the message subject if you believe the group,
    as proposed, should NOT be created.
    
    Be sure to vote only once (YES *or* NO).

    To discuss a vote, or request a change in your vote, send an email message 
    to: 

        [email protected]

    Please direct all public follow-ups to news.groups.  No public votes 
    will be counted.


VOTING PERIOD:

    0000 CST September 29, 1992 through 0000 CST October 29, 1992.

    This CFV will be repeated weekly, along with initial acknowledgements
    of votes.
    
    Shortly after the CFV period ends, the vote will be summarized to
    all relevant newsgroups.  If the group receives 100 more YES votes 
    than NO votes, and there is a majority of at least 2/3 in favor of the
    group, the group will be created, in accordance with net guidelines.
    

RATIONALE

This group should be created for the following reasons:

    1.  There is a broad user-base that will support and use it.

    2.  Those *not* interested in airliner traffic want it off groups it
        isn't appropriate for.  Currently, airliner traffic overlaps 
        sci.aeronautics, comp.risks, rec.travel.air, rec.travel, and 
        rec.aviation, in about that order, with significant repetition.

This group should be created in the sci.aeronautics hierarchy because:

    1.  More aerospace-industry sites receive sci.aeronautics than
        rec.aviation, the other candidate as a home for the group.  Some
        level of participation by those in the industry is very important 
        for the group to work, in the long term.

    2.  The group charter is closely aligned with sci.aeronautics' original
        charter and intent.

    3.  Sci.aeronautics has a broader technical agenda than rec.aviation: 
        rec.aviation's strength is and always has been recreational general 
        aviation.  While it has "worked" very well with this emphasis, many
        users with "aviation" interests that may be more specialized, 
        technical, or academic than a general aviation forum provides, tend 
        to bypass the group.
        
    4.  "Educational" sites (particularly the emerging secondary education 
        networks) are more likely to receive a group under sci than any 
        other hierarchy.

The group is proposed as moderated, in light of the high noise-levels 
various popular airliner-discussions have created in the past year,  
especially "noise" in the form of repetitious contributions or one-liners.

Karl Swartz ([email protected] or [email protected]) has 
volunteered to serve as initial moderator. He has indicated that his 
moderation style will be mainly automatic message-forwarding, only 
"clamping down" when a highly noisy discussion appears. 

Karl has direct access to the Internet, and has indicated an interest in 
archiving messages on his machine, for posterity (they will also be 
archived, elsewhere).

I will serve as initial backup moderator.  Other moderators may be added, 
if the need arises.

---------------------------------- cut here ---------------------------------

The following votes have been received as of 0000 CST on October 16:

"lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock"
[email protected]                Scott Jacobson
[email protected]                    
[email protected]                
[email protected]                   Ed Miller
[email protected]               
[email protected]                Geoff Miller
[email protected]                   Tony Heatwole
[email protected]             
[email protected]          
KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES
[email protected]                    
[email protected]          
[email protected]                Bob Paver
[email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT
[email protected]                    
RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin
[email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of 
[email protected]              Glenn Radinsky ([email protected]
[email protected]                 Steve Smith
[email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina
[email protected]              Alistair Scott
[email protected]              Andy Hogben
[email protected]                Steve Altus
[email protected]                     Bob Bell
[email protected]                            Jim Ault
[email protected]                
[email protected]                    Keith Barr
[email protected]                    James Barrett
[email protected]          Ben Davis
[email protected]                 Ann Berner
[email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau
[email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt
[email protected]                    Mike Brooks
[email protected] 
[email protected]                Christophe Pettus
[email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis"
[email protected]                    Chris Esposito
[email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo
[email protected]                         Craig Jackson
[email protected]                              Christopher Davis
[email protected]                            Clive Dawson
[email protected] 
[email protected]                
[email protected]                   Dave Goodman
[email protected]              David Masters
[email protected]                    Del Armstrong
[email protected]                        Diana G.
dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario
[email protected]                     David Murphy
[email protected]                  Don Montgomery
[email protected]                       Drieux
[email protected]               Kevin Driscoll
[email protected]                    Niels Ejvind Andersen
[email protected]                     
[email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson"
[email protected]          
[email protected]                           Eric Meyer
[email protected]                            Erik Hedberg
[email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya
[email protected]           Stephen Fenwick
[email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald
[email protected]                 John Little - Nihon Sun Repair Depot
[email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse
[email protected]                  Bill Garrison
[email protected]                       "gary"
[email protected]                   Gary Sires
geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck
[email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury
[email protected]                       Greg Lyon
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 
[email protected]                 GUEST 9
[email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty
[email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala
[email protected]             
[email protected]                  Ken Hoyme
[email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose
[email protected]            Kenneth Ingham
[email protected]                   "B.G. Martlew"
[email protected]                 John Clear
[email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger
[email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover
[email protected]                          Joakim Laine
[email protected]             John N. Otakie
[email protected]          
[email protected]                      John Mackin
[email protected]                  Jon Lin
[email protected]                     
[email protected]                            Ken Eichman ([email protected]
[email protected]              "Kevin Bailey"
[email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard
[email protected]                    Karl Swartz
[email protected]                Krissie Griffiths
[email protected]               Ken Koellner
[email protected]              
[email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson
[email protected]           Leon Shieh
[email protected]                           Larry Smith
[email protected]                 Mark Flanagan
matwood%[email protected]              
[email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy
[email protected]                      Pat McManus
[email protected]                         Martyn Thomas
[email protected]                 Michael Bain
[email protected]            Mark Barnett
[email protected]               
[email protected]                    Marty Masters
[email protected]                   
[email protected]                      Judah Milgram
[email protected]               Griff Miller X7114
[email protected]                    Jim Tallant
[email protected]                         Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS
[email protected]                      William Moxley
[email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba"
[email protected]                        William Johnson
[email protected]                     Peter Newton
[email protected]                        Nigel Gamble
[email protected]                      Michael Chang
[email protected]                Bruce Oneel
[email protected]                          Pete Babic
[email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan
[email protected]                Michael T. Palmer
[email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi
[email protected]                        Paulo Santos
[email protected]                      
pedregal%[email protected]             
[email protected]                Michael Pereckas
[email protected]                 Pete Coe
[email protected]            Phil Sutherland
[email protected]            Joel Plutchak
[email protected]                         Pete Mellor
[email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt
[email protected]                   
[email protected]              "Paul S. Miner"
[email protected]               Paul Raveling
rdd                                      Robert Dorsett
[email protected]             Richard H. Miller
[email protected]                      Richard J. Miller
[email protected]                           
[email protected]              ruman
[email protected]               Duckie Shiau
skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen
[email protected]    Stefano Pagiola
[email protected]               Robert Stack
[email protected]                       Stephen L Nicoud
[email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke"
[email protected]            "Thomas L. Webber"
[email protected]                      Timothy_Mclean ADAM
[email protected]                         
[email protected]                   Tom Mackey
[email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies""
[email protected]     
[email protected]                            Urban F
[email protected]                       Vic Vaivads
[email protected]       Axel Wagner
[email protected]                          Carl Watkins
[email protected]               
[email protected]                      Michael Weiss
[email protected]             Werner Uhrig
[email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo
[email protected]           Michael Woodhams
[email protected]                   Steve Wolf
[email protected]                           Zoltan Somogyi

From [email protected] Mon Nov  2 15:43:15 1992
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2892 news.groups:58660 sci.aeronautics:5128 rec.aviation.misc:421 rec.aviation.simulators:343 rec.travel:42745 rec.travel.air:5436
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.simulators,rec.travel,rec.travel.air
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: RESULT: sci.aeronautics.airliners passes 169:26
Followup-To: news.groups
Approved: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 15:15:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Lines: 259

The voting for sci.aeronautics.airliners ended on 0000 CST, October 29, 1992.
The group has passed; my sincerest thanks to everyone who supported it.


=== OFFICIAL VOTE TALLY ===

        Valid Votes Cast:      195

        "Yes" Votes:           169 (86.67% of valid votes)
        "No" Votes:             26 (13.33% of valid votes)

        Yes-No Margin:         143

        Percentage Test:      pass (is yes/valid >= 66.67%?)
        Margin Test:          pass (is yes-no >= 100?)

        VOTE RESULT:          PASS (do both tests pass?)

In approximately one week, barring any significant problems, a newgroup
message should be issued by the news.announce.newgroups moderator.


The newsgroup's charter is:

    A moderated discussion group on airliner technology: the design,
    construction, performance, human factors, operation, and histories
    of transport-category airplanes.


The main moderator is Karl Swartz:
    [email protected], or [email protected]
I am backup moderator:
    [email protected]


The vote was partially administered with software kindly provided by Chip 
Rosenthal.


=== TOP TEN VOTING DOMAINS ===

      13 boeing.com
       8 nasa.gov
       8 ac.uk
       7 stanford.edu
       6 oz.au
       5 umd.edu
       5 mit.edu
       4 selu.edu
       4 hp.com
       4 gatech.edu


=== OFFICIAL VOTE RECORD ===

      n ==  "no" vote
      y ==  "yes" vote

Nays:

n [email protected]                
n [email protected]                    James Barrett
n [email protected]                    Brett A. Hoffstadt
n [email protected]                         Craig Jackson
n [email protected] 
n [email protected]              J. Lewis
n [email protected]                   "Eric J. Olson"
n [email protected]                            Tom Fitzgerald
n [email protected]             Mack GardnerMorse
n geoff%[email protected]             Geoff Peck
n [email protected]                   Jeff C. Glover
n [email protected]                  Jon Lin
n [email protected]               Ken Koellner
n [email protected]                 Mark Flanagan
n [email protected]                   
n [email protected]                        William Johnson
n [email protected]                      Michael Chang
n [email protected]            Joel Plutchak
n [email protected]                  Murray Nesbitt
n [email protected]             Richard H. Miller
n [email protected]               Duckie Shiau
n [email protected]                 Glyn Simpson
n [email protected]                      "Sven M. Heinicke"
n [email protected]                 ""T.S. Davies""
n [email protected]                            Urban F
n [email protected]                   Steve Wolf


Yays: 

y "lavc01::BULLOCK"@cliff.bms.com          "J. S. Bullock"
y [email protected]                 Robert Green
y [email protected]                Scott Jacobson
y [email protected]                         Andrea A. Pietracaprina
y [email protected]              Alistair Scott
y [email protected]              Andy Hogben
y [email protected]                Steve Altus
y [email protected]                     Bob Bell
y [email protected]                            Jim Ault
y [email protected]                    
y [email protected]                         Venkatesh Gopalakrishnan
y [email protected]                    Keith Barr
y [email protected]                Eric Bartsch
y [email protected]          Ben Davis
y [email protected]                 Ann Berner
y [email protected]                 Brian Hazlehurst
y [email protected]                  Carol V. Boudreau
y [email protected]                    Mike Brooks
y [email protected] 
y [email protected]                Christophe Pettus
y [email protected]                  "Chris J. Davis"
y [email protected]                    Chris Esposito
y [email protected] Christian Kuehnke
y [email protected]                       Derek H. Cedillo
y [email protected]                              Christopher Davis
y [email protected]                            Clive Dawson
y [email protected]                Christopher T. Hudgin
y [email protected]                
y [email protected]                   Dave Goodman
y [email protected]              David Masters
y [email protected]                    Del Armstrong
y [email protected]                        Diana G.
y dillard%[email protected] Life is a worst case scenario
y [email protected]                     David Murphy
y [email protected]                
y [email protected]                  Don Montgomery
y dorn%[email protected]    "ALAN DORN HETZEL JR"
y [email protected]                       Drieux
y [email protected]               Kevin Driscoll
y [email protected]                           David Benedict Ducharme
y [email protected]                    Niels Ejvind Andersen
y [email protected]                   Ed Miller
y [email protected]                     
y [email protected]          
y [email protected]                           Eric Meyer
y [email protected]                            Erik Hedberg
y [email protected]                      Eugene N. Miya
y [email protected]               
y [email protected]           Stephen Fenwick
y [email protected]              Rich Reynolds
y [email protected]                 John Little - Nihon Sun Repair Depot
y [email protected]                  Bill Garrison
y [email protected]                       "gary"
y [email protected]                   Gary Sires
y [email protected]                Geoff Miller
y [email protected]                  Gregory G. Woodbury
y [email protected]                       Greg Lyon
y [email protected]             Greg Wright
y [email protected]                 
y [email protected]                 
y [email protected]                 GUEST 9
y [email protected]                   Tony Heatwole
y [email protected]                      Christopher Hegarty
y [email protected]                            Jussi-Pekka Rikala
y [email protected]             
y [email protected]                  Ken Hoyme
y [email protected]                            Helen Trillian Rose
y [email protected]                   "B.G. Martlew"
y [email protected]            Kenneth Ingham
y [email protected]                 John Clear
y [email protected]                 John Clear
y [email protected]                      Gregg Jaeger
y [email protected]                          Joakim Laine
y [email protected]             
y [email protected]             John N. Otakie
y [email protected]          
y [email protected]                      John Mackin
y [email protected]          
y [email protected]                     
y KCHAN%[email protected]              "Khee Chan, SSL/ESOC at JPL, ULYSSES
y [email protected]                            Ken Eichman ([email protected]
y [email protected]                    
y [email protected]              "Kevin Bailey"
y [email protected]                     Kelvin Hubbard
y [email protected]                 Wolfgang Klemm
y [email protected]                    Karl Swartz
y [email protected]                Krissie Griffiths
y [email protected]              
y [email protected]                              Lars-Henrik Eriksson
y [email protected]           Leon Shieh
y [email protected]                           Larry Smith
y matwood%[email protected]              
y [email protected]             Martin Emde
y [email protected]              Marcus O. McElroy
y [email protected]                      Pat McManus
y [email protected]                         Martyn Thomas
y [email protected]                 Michael Bain
y [email protected]            Mark Barnett
y [email protected]               
y [email protected]                    Marty Masters
y [email protected]         Michael Vaughn
y [email protected]                      Judah Milgram
y [email protected]                 Mark Miller
y [email protected]               Griff Miller X7114
y [email protected]                    Jim Tallant
y [email protected]                         Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS
y [email protected]                      William Moxley
y [email protected]               "Syed Aon Mujtaba"
y [email protected]                     Peter Newton
y [email protected] Nick Wales
y [email protected]          
y [email protected]                        Nigel Gamble
y [email protected]                Bruce Oneel
y [email protected]                          Pete Babic
y [email protected]                 Padraig Houlahan
y [email protected]                Michael T. Palmer
y [email protected]            Stefano Paraboschi
y [email protected]                        Paulo Santos
y [email protected]                      
y [email protected]                Bob Paver
y [email protected]                        
y pedregal%[email protected]             
y [email protected]                Michael Pereckas
y [email protected]                 Pete Coe
y [email protected]                        
y [email protected]                    
y [email protected]            Phil Sutherland
y [email protected]                      Olivier PLAUT
y [email protected]                         Pete Mellor
y [email protected]                            
y [email protected]                   
y [email protected]              "Paul S. Miner"
y [email protected]                        
y [email protected]                          Pirawat Watanapongse
y RANKIN%[email protected]              James Rankin
y [email protected]               Paul Raveling
y rdd                                      Robert Dorsett
y [email protected]                      Richard J. Miller
y [email protected]                   "Rob A. Vingerhoeds / University of 
y [email protected]                           
y [email protected]              ruman
y [email protected]              Glenn Radinsky ([email protected]
y [email protected]               Mary Shafer
y [email protected]             Jeff Silverman
y skyline!gk                               Gary Kremen
y [email protected]    Stefano Pagiola
y [email protected]               Robert Stack
y [email protected]                       Stephen L Nicoud
y [email protected]                    
y [email protected]                 Steve Smith
y [email protected]             Netter Thomas
y [email protected]            "Thomas L. Webber"
y [email protected]                      Timothy_Mclean ADAM
y [email protected]                         
y [email protected]                         
y [email protected]                   Tom Mackey
y [email protected]     
y [email protected]                       Vic Vaivads
y [email protected]                    
y [email protected]       Axel Wagner
y [email protected]                          Carl Watkins
y [email protected]                        Bruce Watson
y [email protected]               
y [email protected]                      Michael Weiss
y [email protected]             Werner Uhrig
y [email protected]                         Weekhuan Loo
y [email protected]           Michael Woodhams
y [email protected]                        
y [email protected]                           Zoltan Somogyi

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Tue Jun 14 16:55:47 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners
Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.aeronautics.simulation moderated
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: poster
Date: 14 Jun 1994 16:46:04 -0400
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 97
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected], [email protected],
	[email protected], [email protected]
Expires: 30 Jun 1994 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Ron Dippold Voting Alias)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5213 news.groups:106290 sci.aeronautics:7222 rec.aviation.simulators:5491 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:19088 sci.engr:9530 sci.engr.control:2363 comp.simulation:1081 sci.military:38016 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1551

                     LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
              moderated group sci.aeronautics.simulation

Newsgroups line:
sci.aeronautics.simulation      Aerospace simulation technology. (Moderated)


Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 29 Jun 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the
proposed group contact Robert Dorsett <[email protected]>.



CHARTER

  A moderated discussion group dealing with the implementation of flight and
  systems models on computers.  This includes, but is not restricted to:
     - the definition of such models
     - acquisition and modeling of flight parameters
     - design and implementation of onboard systems models
     - design and implementation of powerplant models
     - standardization of commonly required data, such as flight 
       parameter databases, navaid databases, etc.
     - design of cab-based implementations of flight simulators

  The newsgroup will be moderated by Robert Dorsett, [email protected]
  The contact address will be [email protected], 
  requests to [email protected]

Notes
-----

There is a close relationship between this group and sci.aeronautics:
however, simulation requires more than simply implementing physical
equations, and this group will strive to address the specific issues
that implementors must face.  The group is offered as moderated to
keep it on track, and to try to avoid thread mutation into topics that
might belong on other groups.  It should also help stop commercial
direct-marketers, who post to inappropriate groups, selling everything
>from hand cream to visa applications.

I will work in concert with the moderators of sci.aeronautics (Mary
Shafer) and sci.aeronautics.airliners (Karl Swartz) to control the
topical focus of relevant articles.


What the group is not about
---------------------------

- Generic simulation issues (handled by comp.simulation)
- Validating games (rec.aviation.simulators, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim)
- Using flight games


History of the proposal
-----------------------

The RFD was issued in early February, after the moderator of
sci.aeronautics noted the high incidence of posts dealing with
simulation issues.  I had also noticed a number of highly technical
queries appearing on rec.aviation.simulators, without any follow-ups.

The RFD produced a large number of very positive responses from people
active in all segments of the industry, ranging from the airframe
manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers to aerospace departments
to government researchers to game designers.

Due to a pesky phone line, the vote was delayed; after the problems
were fixed, a second RFD was issued in May, which similarly had a good
response.



HOW TO VOTE

Send MAIL to:   [email protected]
Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.

Your mail message should contain one of the following statements:
      I vote YES on sci.aeronautics.simulation
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sci.aeronautics.simulation Bounce List - No need to revote
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