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Simulations ( sci.aeronautics.simulation )
 
From [email protected] Wed Feb 16 14:49:39 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners
Subject: RFD: sci.aeronautics.simulation
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 16 Feb 1994 14:30:47 -0500
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:4635 news.groups:95677 sci.aeronautics:6910 rec.aviation.simulators:4282 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:11906 sci.engr:8167 sci.engr.control:1682 comp.simulation:711 sci.military:34652 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1148

This is a formal request for discussion for a proposed new newsgroup:
    sci.aeronautics.simulation

The newsgroup is proposed in response to a number of factors:

- The high degree of interest in simulation technology expressed in a variety 
  of newsgroups, including: sci.aeronautics, sci.military, rec.aviation,
  rec.aviation.simulators, and comp.simulation.  While most of this interest
  is casual, the occasional technical post appears, in desperate search of
  a home.  This traffic is characterized by aerospace applications, rather
  than the more general, academic material on comp.simulation.

- The high degree of technical interest in simulation technology, recently,
  on sci.aeronautics.  Which led the moderator, Mary Shafer, to suggest an 
  RFD.

- The fact that with modern microcomputers, the implementation of very 
  thorough, advanced flight models are both feasible and widely accessible.  
  Flight simulation technology is no longer the exclusive province of 
  government researchers or well-funded corporations.  Simulation courses are 
  now part of the curricula of many undergraduate aerospace programs.  Desktop 
  simulation is an emerging issue in aerospace, with a wide range of 
  applications, from aircraft design and evaluation to aircrew training.

- The need for a forum to coordinate the standardization of data formats.
  Currently, most data formats are highly proprietary, and quite diverse.
  Standards are under consideration, and such a forum could serve as a 
  sounding-board for RFC's and the like.

- Lastly, the very interesting potential for hybrid technology to develop,
  with the combination of motivated people with CS backgrounds on the net,
  combined with the knowledge and expertise of the many people from the
  aerospace sector.  Besides the specific topic--flight simulation--the
  group is also of interest to those with EE and ME backgrounds, seeking
  realistic, complex applications to test control theories.

Therefore, the simulation newsgroup is intended to address the issues per-
taining to atmospheric and low-orbital flight simulation.  In particular,
the gamut of implementation issues, including algorithms, flight modeling, 
parameter estimation, data gathering, and construction.

The group will explicitly NOT be concerned with issues relating to the
validation of retail software, nor the myriad user debates on retail 
features.  Two newsgroups, rec.aviation.simulators and comp.sys.mac.ibm.pc.
flight-sim provide adequate environments for this type of discussion.
Rec.aviation.simulators, moreover, provides a home for discussions relating
to the applicability of desktop simulators to general aviation flight 
training.  


Rather, the group is intended for those who wish to create simulators, both
research and commercial, and is intended to address the unique questions
that such implementors face.  Hence the name choice of *simulation*, rather
than *simulators*: the technique, rather than examples.

How would this differ from sci.aeronautics?  In general, the issue is one
of modeling: aeronautics is a broad discipline, primarily concerned with
physical processes.  Simulation is concerned with the modeling of that reality, 
using both actual flight-test data *and* estimated data.  For the amateur 
or poorly connected practitioner, the acquisition of such data and the use
of such data provide particularly stiff challenges.  Especially inasmuch as
such data acquisition is not only concerned with aerodynamics, but can also
pertain to a considerable number of environmental factors--thus the problem
can be more complex than "regular" aerodynamics, where nature provides a very
high-fidelity physical environment.

Since, however, there is potential for overlap, the group is proposed as
moderated, with myself as moderator.  The responsibility of the moderator
would be to work with the moderators of sci.aero and sci.aero.airliners, and
mainly keep things "on course," filtering out non-relevant messages and keep-
ing the flames to a minimum.

The discussion period will last for 30 days.  At the end of this period, 
depending upon response, a formal charter will be framed and a call-for-votes 
issued.
-- 
Robert Dorsett
[email protected]
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

From [email protected] Wed May 11 15:01:45 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners
Subject: 2nd RFD: sci.aeronautics.simulation moderated
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 9 May 1994 19:57:10 -0400
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5067 news.groups:103137 sci.aeronautics:7143 rec.aviation.simulators:5128 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:16509 sci.engr:9118 sci.engr.control:2107 comp.simulation:973 sci.military:37082 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1406

This is a repeat RFD for sci.aeronautics.simulation.  The original RFD was
issued in mid-February.  User comments were uniformly positive.  However,
an unstable machine and a dirty phone line precluded my pursuing the vote:
those problems have been rectified.

The following is an exact repeat of the original RFD.  With David
Lawrence's approval, this RFD period will last ten days; it is mainly a 
"refresher."

------------------------------


The newsgroup is proposed in response to a number of factors:

- The high degree of interest in simulation technology expressed in a variety 
  of newsgroups, including: sci.aeronautics, sci.military, rec.aviation,
  rec.aviation.simulators, and comp.simulation.  While most of this interest
  is casual, the occasional technical post appears, in desperate search of
  a home.  This traffic is characterized by aerospace applications, rather
  than the more general, academic material on comp.simulation.

- The high degree of technical interest in simulation technology, recently,
  on sci.aeronautics.  Which led the moderator, Mary Shafer, to suggest an 
  RFD.

- The fact that with modern microcomputers, the implementation of very 
  thorough, advanced flight models are both feasible and widely accessible.  
  Flight simulation technology is no longer the exclusive province of 
  government researchers or well-funded corporations.  Simulation courses are 
  now part of the curricula of many undergraduate aerospace programs.  Desktop 
  simulation is an emerging issue in aerospace, with a wide range of 
  applications, from aircraft design and evaluation to aircrew training.

- The need for a forum to coordinate the standardization of data formats.
  Currently, most data formats are highly proprietary, and quite diverse.
  Standards are under consideration, and such a forum could serve as a 
  sounding-board for RFC's and the like.

- Lastly, the very interesting potential for hybrid technology to develop,
  with the combination of motivated people with CS backgrounds on the net,
  combined with the knowledge and expertise of the many people from the
  aerospace sector.  Besides the specific topic--flight simulation--the
  group is also of interest to those with EE and ME backgrounds, seeking
  realistic, complex applications to test control theories.

Therefore, the simulation newsgroup is intended to address the issues per-
taining to atmospheric and low-orbital flight simulation.  In particular,
the gamut of implementation issues, including algorithms, flight modeling, 
parameter estimation, data gathering, and construction.

The group will explicitly NOT be concerned with issues relating to the
validation of retail software, nor the myriad user debates on retail 
features.  Two newsgroups, rec.aviation.simulators and comp.sys.ibm.pc.
flight-sim provide adequate environments for this type of discussion.
Rec.aviation.simulators, moreover, provides a home for discussions relating
to the applicability of desktop simulators to general aviation flight 
training.  


Rather, the group is intended for those who wish to create simulators, both
research and commercial, and is intended to address the unique questions
that such implementors face.  Hence the name choice of *simulation*, rather
than *simulators*: the technique, rather than examples.

How would this differ from sci.aeronautics?  In general, the issue is one
of modeling: aeronautics is a broad discipline, primarily concerned with
physical processes.  Simulation is concerned with the modeling of that reality, 
using both actual flight-test data *and* estimated data.  For the amateur 
or poorly connected practitioner, the acquisition of such data and the use
of such data provide particularly stiff challenges.  Especially inasmuch as
such data acquisition is not only concerned with aerodynamics, but can also
pertain to a considerable number of environmental factors--thus the problem
can be more complex than "regular" aerodynamics, where nature provides a very
high-fidelity physical environment.

Since, however, there is potential for overlap, the group is proposed as
moderated, with myself as moderator.  The responsibility of the moderator
would be to work with the moderators of sci.aero and sci.aero.airliners, and
mainly keep things "on course," filtering out non-relevant messages and keep-
ing the flames to a minimum.

The discussion period will last for 10 days.  At the end of this period, 
depending upon response, a formal charter will be framed and a call-for-votes 
issued.
-- 
Robert Dorsett                                                       
[email protected]

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Thu Jun  9 18:05:55 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners
Subject: CFV: sci.aeronautics.simulation moderated
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Date: 8 Jun 1994 17:16:09 -0400
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Expires: 30 Jun 1994 00:00:00 GMT
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References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Ron Dippold Voting Alias)
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5192 news.groups:105796 sci.aeronautics:7204 rec.aviation.simulators:5406 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:18633 sci.engr:9429 sci.engr.control:2334 comp.simulation:1069 sci.military:37794 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1533

		     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
	      moderated group sci.aeronautics.simulation

Newsgroups line:
sci.aeronautics.simulation	Aerospace simulation technology. (Moderated)


Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 29 Jun 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the
proposed group contact Robert Dorsett <[email protected]>.



CHARTER

  A moderated discussion group dealing with the implementation of flight and
  systems models on computers.  This includes, but is not restricted to:
     - the definition of such models
     - acquisition and modeling of flight parameters
     - design and implementation of onboard systems models
     - design and implementation of powerplant models
     - standardization of commonly required data, such as flight 
       parameter databases, navaid databases, etc.
     - design of cab-based implementations of flight simulators

  The newsgroup will be moderated by Robert Dorsett, [email protected]
  The contact address will be [email protected], 
  requests to [email protected]

Notes
-----

There is a close relationship between this group and sci.aeronautics:
however, simulation requires more than simply implementing physical
equations, and this group will strive to address the specific issues
that implementors must face.  The group is offered as moderated to
keep it on track, and to try to avoid thread mutation into topics that
might belong on other groups.  It should also help stop commercial
direct-marketers, who post to inappropriate groups, selling everything
>from hand cream to visa applications.

I will work in concert with the moderators of sci.aeronautics (Mary
Shafer) and sci.aeronautics.airliners (Karl Swartz) to control the
topical focus of relevant articles.


What the group is not about
---------------------------

- Generic simulation issues (handled by comp.simulation)
- Validating games (rec.aviation.simulators, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim)
- Using flight games


History of the proposal
-----------------------

The RFD was issued in early February, after the moderator of
sci.aeronautics noted the high incidence of posts dealing with
simulation issues.  I had also noticed a number of highly technical
queries appearing on rec.aviation.simulators, without any follow-ups.

The RFD produced a large number of very positive responses from people
active in all segments of the industry, ranging from the airframe
manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers to aerospace departments
to government researchers to game designers.

Due to a pesky phone line, the vote was delayed; after the problems
were fixed, a second RFD was issued in May, which similarly had a good
response.



HOW TO VOTE

Send MAIL to:   [email protected]
Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.

Your mail message should contain one of the following statements:
      I vote YES on sci.aeronautics.simulation
      I vote NO on sci.aeronautics.simulation

You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome.
Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

One vote counted per person, no more than one per account. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.

From [email protected] (RonDippold) Tue Jul 12 15:05:40 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.aeronautics,rec.aviation.simulators,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,sci.engr,sci.engr.control,comp.simulation,sci.military,sci.aeronautics.airliners
Subject: RESULT: sci.aeronautics.simulation moderated passes 193:11
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 11 Jul 1994 23:51:44 -0400
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Approved: [email protected], [email protected],
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5338 news.groups:108174 sci.aeronautics:7276 rec.aviation.simulators:5757 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim:21243 sci.engr:9809 sci.engr.control:2524 comp.simulation:1149 sci.military:38780 sci.aeronautics.airliners:1661

				RESULT
       moderated group sci.aeronautics.simulation passes 193:11

There were 193 YES votes and 11 NO votes, for a total of 204 valid votes. 
There were 2 abstains and 1 invalid ballot.

For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. 

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.  If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of
news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter.


Newsgroups line:
sci.aeronautics.simulation      Aerospace simulation technology. (Moderated)

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact [email protected]  For questions about the
proposed group contact Robert Dorsett <[email protected]>.



CHARTER

  A moderated discussion group dealing with the implementation of flight and
  systems models on computers.  This includes, but is not restricted to:
     - the definition of such models
     - acquisition and modeling of flight parameters
     - design and implementation of onboard systems models
     - design and implementation of powerplant models
     - standardization of commonly required data, such as flight 
       parameter databases, navaid databases, etc.
     - design of cab-based implementations of flight simulators

  The newsgroup will be moderated by Robert Dorsett, [email protected]
  The contact address will be [email protected], 
  requests to [email protected]

Notes
-----

There is a close relationship between this group and sci.aeronautics:
however, simulation requires more than simply implementing physical
equations, and this group will strive to address the specific issues
that implementors must face.  The group is offered as moderated to
keep it on track, and to try to avoid thread mutation into topics that
might belong on other groups.  It should also help stop commercial
direct-marketers, who post to inappropriate groups, selling everything
>from hand cream to visa applications.

I will work in concert with the moderators of sci.aeronautics (Mary
Shafer) and sci.aeronautics.airliners (Karl Swartz) to control the
topical focus of relevant articles.


What the group is not about
---------------------------

- Generic simulation issues (handled by comp.simulation)
- Validating games (rec.aviation.simulators, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim)
- Using flight games


History of the proposal
-----------------------

The RFD was issued in early February, after the moderator of
sci.aeronautics noted the high incidence of posts dealing with
simulation issues.  I had also noticed a number of highly technical
queries appearing on rec.aviation.simulators, without any follow-ups.

The RFD produced a large number of very positive responses from people
active in all segments of the industry, ranging from the airframe
manufacturers to the simulator manufacturers to aerospace departments
to government researchers to game designers.

Due to a pesky phone line, the vote was delayed; after the problems
were fixed, a second RFD was issued in May, which similarly had a good
response.


sci.aeronautics.simulation Final Vote Ack

Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                   Francois Choquette
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                        Alan B. Chamberlin
[email protected]                                          
[email protected]                                      Bahadir Acuner
[email protected]                                       F. P. Adams, Jr.
[email protected]                                        Allan Plumb
[email protected]                      JESUS EUGENIO SANCHEZ PENA
[email protected]                                   
[email protected]                                                 Andy Latto
[email protected]                         Stefan Antersberger
[email protected]                                              Anandeep S Pannu
[email protected]                                                    Jim Ault
[email protected]                                               Beau Binder
[email protected]                                                 Barry Jones
[email protected]                                                            
[email protected]                            Peter Berschick
[email protected]                               Bruce E. Zunser
[email protected]                                           arthur blair
[email protected]                                            Matthew W. Blake
[email protected]                                          Greg Boes
[email protected]                     Bernd-Burkhard Borys
[email protected]                                                             
[email protected]                                                         
[email protected]                                      Bryan Kaplan
[email protected]                                                Dick Buenneke
[email protected]                                       Thomas J Bunce
[email protected]                                                           
[email protected]                                  Robert A. Carter
[email protected]                                      Chuck Royalty
[email protected]                                                  Brian Cherkas
[email protected]                    Chris 'No men..period\!' Jackson
[email protected]                                         Clive Cunningham
[email protected]                                           Craig Kelley
[email protected]                                           Craig Wanke
[email protected]                                    Kevin Cunningham
[email protected]                                                    David A. Avery
[email protected]                                                Dan Newman
[email protected]                                                    Dan Smith
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                            Dave Goodman
[email protected]                                                            
[email protected]                              David R. Catapang
[email protected]                      Harry Rockefeller
[email protected]                               Keith Blanchette 515 MIS
[email protected]                                             Mike Bates
[email protected]                                       Daniel Morales L.
[email protected]                                                Dean Domikulic
[email protected]                                        Bruce Jackson
[email protected]                                         Ron Graham
[email protected]                                                    Ed Falk
[email protected]                                         Ethan Brodsky
[email protected]                                          Eric Thompson
[email protected]                                             Eugene N. Miya
[email protected]                            Fred D. Sturtevant
[email protected]                                            MichaelFeary
[email protected]                                                         
[email protected]                                     matthew david fine
[email protected]                                                         
[email protected]                                    Dave Forrest
[email protected]                                 Michael Frament
[email protected]                                 Gilbert Freitag
[email protected]                                Robin Friedrich
[email protected]                                  Sean P. Ryan
[email protected]                                               Kenneth Funk
[email protected]                                                     GJ Page
[email protected]                                          Graham Robbins
[email protected]                            Galanis, George
[email protected]                     Dave Shariff Yadallee
[email protected]                                      Glenn E. Kohr
[email protected]                                       EuGene epetai-Tramaglino
[email protected]                                Jerry Gerstmann
[email protected]                                            Gary Cole
[email protected]                                       Benito Graniela
[email protected]                                                    
[email protected]                                                      
[email protected]                                               Guru Prasad
[email protected]                                           Guy Schiavone
[email protected]                                          James Harvey
[email protected]                                             Henry A Worth
[email protected]                        Peter Herrmann
[email protected]                                          Henning Holtschneider
[email protected]                                         Jim Hiott
[email protected]                              Hitendra Desai
[email protected]                          Horst Salzwedel
[email protected]                                          Hitesh Parikh
[email protected]                                     Hubert Vroomen
[email protected]                              Ivan Soleimanipour
[email protected]                                         Jacob A. Houck
[email protected]                                  Jeffrey M Maddalon
[email protected]                                               
[email protected]                                              Joseph Batman
[email protected]                           Jock Robert Ian Christie
[email protected]                                                  John C Sager
[email protected]                                           Angelo Catovic
[email protected]                                            John E. Mendenhall
[email protected]                                          Joseph Fortt
[email protected]                                        Jeffrey N. Fritz
[email protected]                                             John Maca
[email protected]                                                 Joel Bordeneuve
[email protected]                                                  John Hascall
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                     Jim Takats
[email protected]                                           Jari Vilenius
[email protected]                                               James Yates
[email protected]                                     Suresh K. Kannan
[email protected]                                                 Karim Samir
[email protected]                               Karsten Martin
[email protected]                                              Karl Swartz
[email protected]              Karsten Kreher (4D)
[email protected]                           David Kuechenmeister
[email protected]                                 Kurt "Marvin" Stadler
[email protected]                                        Martin Schroeder
[email protected]                                         Lachlan Cranswick
[email protected]                                         Laura Gillespie
[email protected]                                      Ronald Legere
[email protected]                                           Louis Bolduc
[email protected]                                Lutz Jarbot
[email protected]                                            IanMaclure
[email protected]                                                   
[email protected]                                         Michael Bolender
[email protected]                                  Marcus O. McElroy
[email protected]                              Kenneth McMurtrie
[email protected]                                 Richard Merrill
[email protected]                                        
[email protected]                                               Miika Asunta
[email protected]                                                       Mike Young
[email protected]                                                   Mike Bloom
[email protected]                                           STEVEDORE
[email protected]                                             Meyer  Nahon
[email protected]                                                 Mark R. Kennedy
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                        Brian Thomas
[email protected]                              Nickolas E. Hein
[email protected]                                                              
[email protected]                                                  Neil Morris
[email protected]                                       Nelson Bridwell
[email protected]                                     Nils Nieuwejaar
[email protected]                                                                
[email protected]                                 William T. Overton
[email protected]                                                  Perry Geib
[email protected]                                                   phil reed
[email protected]                                      Padraig Houlahan
[email protected]                          Palmer,David,DR
[email protected]                                             L. Merrill Palmer
[email protected]                                  Jean-Francois Panisset
[email protected]                                                     Paul Robinson
[email protected]                                           Philip D Bridges
[email protected]                                 Pat Pekinpaugh
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                          Pablo A. Iglesias
[email protected]                                              Olivier PLAUT
[email protected]                                       Tomasz Plewa
[email protected]                                                  Pete Mellor
[email protected]                                        Peter Polson
[email protected]                                                  Philip Ryan
[email protected]                                   Michael J. Quinn
[email protected]                                      R. Marshall Smith
[email protected]                                                 Riley Rainey
[email protected]                           R. Brian dos Santos
[email protected]                                                  Robert Dorsett
[email protected]                                   Dick Harrigill
[email protected]                                             Richard H. Miller
[email protected]                                                  Rob Griffiths
[email protected]                                                   Bob Wittick
[email protected]                                             THE PRINCE
[email protected]                                           Mazen Saghir
[email protected]                                                               
[email protected]                                            H.G.Pagendarm
[email protected]                                             Steve Brown
[email protected]                                          Steve Derry
[email protected]                                         Paulo F. Sedrez
[email protected]                            Simpkin, Graeme
[email protected]                                                    Sinan Karahan
[email protected]                                      singh daljeet
[email protected]                                                Shankar Khadye
[email protected]                                              Sung-Soo Kim
[email protected]                      stuart butts/taai/75033
[email protected]                                           David Soto
[email protected]                                                   Steve Hurt
[email protected]                                  Terry Yingling
[email protected]                                   Timo Tapio Hakulinen
[email protected]                                                      
[email protected]                                       Timothy Aanerud
[email protected]                                                  Thomas Netter
[email protected]                                         Trey Arthur
[email protected]                               Triebelhorn Jeffrey
[email protected]                                      Geoffroy VILLE
[email protected]                                               Stephen Fenwick
[email protected]                              Robyn M. Watts
[email protected]                                            Erik Werner
[email protected]                                              Werner Uhrig
[email protected]                                                   wgreen

Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                             Andreas Polzer
[email protected]                          Ajit Balakrishna [ChemE mg15302]
[email protected]                                                 Jan Brittenson
[email protected]                                              
[email protected]                                                          
[email protected]                                                              
[email protected]                                     John R. MacWilliamson
[email protected]                                          Julian Macassey
[email protected]                                            
[email protected]                                                  Dwight Brown
[email protected]                                                       STella

Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                          Anita Kilgour
[email protected]                                          Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS


Votes in error
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[email protected]                            Jesse William Leo Stuart
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USENET FACT: Lurker
A person who reads/browses newsgroups but does not actively post.