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NeWS (Sun) ( comp.windows.news )
 
From [email protected] Mon May 29 22:34:33 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Patrick M. Lashley)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news
Subject: RFD: comp.windows.news moderation
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 28 May 1995 18:35:39 -0400
Organization: Phoenix Volant
Lines: 54
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: gs2.UU.NET news.announce.newgroups:6909 news.groups:151529 comp.windows.news:5025

			REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
moderated group comp.windows.news (moderates existing unmoderated group)

RATIONALE:

comp.windows.news predates Microsoft Windows, but has been overwhelmed
with Microsoft-related postings, which would be more proper in the
comp.os.ms-windows.* hierarchy.  Comp.windows.misc and comp.lang.visual
recently went moderated for the same reason.

PROPOSED GROUPS:

This proposal does not create any new groups, but does change the
status of comp.windows.news to moderated.

This message is a call to discuss the proposed change. (See PROCEDURE below.)

The proposed moderator is Patrick M. Lashley <[email protected]>.
He was a NeWS user at a Beta site, then joined the NeWS Technology
group at Sun, eventually becomming Technical Lead and Project Lead
for The NeWS Toolkit.

CHARTER:

comp.windows.news

    comp.windows.news is dedicated to the discussion of the Network
    extensible Windowing System developed and marketed by Sun Microsystems
    during the late 80's and early 90's. Topics include the NeWS server,
    NeWS-specific issues relating to the X/NeWS server, the NeWS dialect
    of PostScript, and any efforts to produce NeWS-compatible systems.

PROCEDURE:

Discussion of this request will occur in news.groups.  There will be a
30 day discussion period, followed by a call for votes.  There will then
be a voting period of 21 to 31 days, with intermediate results and a
repeat of the CFV during that period.  The voting process will be handled
by a neutral third party (the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers.)  Once the
voting period is over and the results announced, there will be a short
waiting period to correct any errors.  If, after that time, the proposal
has passed, the appropriate control messages will be sent to change
the status of comp.windows.NeWS.


DISTRIBUTION:

news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, comp.windows.news

Proposed by Patrick M. Lashley <[email protected]>
-- 
My opinions are my own.  For a small royalty, they can be yours as well...
Pat Lashley, Senior Software Engineer, Henry Davis Consulting
1098 Lynn, Sunnyvale, CA 94087	||  408/720-9039  ||  [email protected]


From [email protected] Fri Oct 27 00:42:32 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news
Subject: RFD: comp.windows.news moderation
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 27 Oct 1995 04:42:00 -0000
Organization: .
Lines: 55
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.windows.news
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7764 news.groups:171561 comp.windows.news:5569

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
     moderated group comp.windows.news (moderates existing group)

This proposal does not create any new groups, but does change the
status of comp.windows.news to moderated.

This message is a call to discuss the proposed change.
(See PROCEDURE below.)

RATIONALE: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news predates Microsoft Windows, but has been overwhelmed
with Microsoft-related postings, which would be more proper in the
comp.os.ms-windows-* hierarchy.  Comp.windows.misc and comp.lang.visual
have recently undergone moderation votes for the same reason.


CHARTER: comp.windows.news

comp.windows.news is dedicated to the discussion of the Network
extensible Windowing System developed and marketed by Sun Microsystems
from the mid 80's through the early 90's.  Topics include the NeWS
server, NeWS-specific issues relating to the X/NeWS server, the NeWS
dialect of PostScript, and any efforts to produce NeWS-compatible systems.

Generally, any article bearing any connection to NeWS will be accepted,
but fringe postings may have a more relevant followup group suggestion
appended.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: comp.windows.news

Moderator: Patrick M. Lashley <[email protected]>

He was a NeWS user at a Beta site, then joined the NeWS Technology
group at Sun, eventually becomming Technical Lead and Project Lead
for The NeWS Toolkit just before NeWS was canceled.  He is now a
consultant.

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

Discussion of this request will occur in news.groups.  There will be a
30 day discussion period, followed by a call for votes.  There will then
be a voting period of 21 to 31 days, with intermediate results and a
repeat of the CFV during that period.  The voting process will be handled
by a neutral third party (the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers.)  Once the
voting period is over and the results announced, there will be a short
waiting period to correct any errors.  If, after that time, the proposal
has passed, the appropriate control messages will be sent to change
the status of comp.windows.news.

Proposed by Patrick M. Lashley <[email protected]>

From [email protected] Mon Nov 20 20:07:41 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news
Subject: CFV: comp.windows.news moderated
Followup-To: poster
Date: 21 Nov 1995 01:06:59 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 86
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 13 Dec 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.windows.news
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7904 news.groups:175121 comp.windows.news:5678

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
     moderated group comp.windows.news (moderates existing group)

Newsgroups line:
comp.windows.news	The Network Extensable Windowing System. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 12 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about
this proposal should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Warren Lavallee <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news predates Microsoft Windows, but has been overwhelmed
with Microsoft-related postings, which would be more proper in the
comp.os.ms-windows-* hierarchy.  Comp.windows.misc and comp.lang.visual
have undergone moderation votes for the same reason.

CHARTER: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news is dedicated to the discussion of the Network
extensible Windowing System developed and marketed by Sun Microsystems
from the mid 80's through the early 90's. Topics include the NeWS
server, NeWS-specific issues relating to the X/NeWS server, the NeWS
dialect of PostScript, and any efforts to produce NeWS-compatible
systems.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: comp.windows.news

Moderator:              Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Submission address:	NeWS list <[email protected]>
Contact address:	NeWS list <[email protected]>

END MODERATOR INFO.

HOW TO VOTE

Send E-MAIL to:   [email protected]

Your e-mail message should contain one and only one of the following
statements:

      I vote YES on comp.windows.news
      I vote NO on comp.windows.news

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL; these are not counted as votes and
don't affect the vote count.

If your mail software doesn't indicate your real name, please also
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

	Voter name:

VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes must
be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid; this includes votes generated by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may mean
that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days, contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is
registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of the most
recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be published
in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted to
news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited
copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.  When in
doubt, ask the votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

This Call for Votes is being posted to the following newsgroups:

	news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news

From [email protected] Wed Nov 29 17:53:36 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news
Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.windows.news moderated
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: poster
Date: 29 Nov 1995 22:53:30 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 86
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Expires: 13 Dec 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.windows.news
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7956 news.groups:176856 comp.windows.news:5719

                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
     moderated group comp.windows.news (moderates existing group)

Newsgroups line:
comp.windows.news	The Network extensible Windowing System. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 12 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about
this proposal should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Warren Lavallee <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news predates Microsoft Windows, but has been overwhelmed
with Microsoft-related postings, which would be more proper in the
comp.os.ms-windows-* hierarchy.  Comp.windows.misc and comp.lang.visual
have undergone moderation votes for the same reason.

CHARTER: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news is dedicated to the discussion of the Network
extensible Windowing System developed and marketed by Sun Microsystems
from the mid 80's through the early 90's. Topics include the NeWS
server, NeWS-specific issues relating to the X/NeWS server, the NeWS
dialect of PostScript, and any efforts to produce NeWS-compatible
systems.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: comp.windows.news

Moderator:              Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Submission address:	NeWS list <[email protected]>
Contact address:	NeWS list <[email protected]>

END MODERATOR INFO.

HOW TO VOTE

Send E-MAIL to:   [email protected]

Your e-mail message should contain one and only one of the following
statements:

      I vote YES on comp.windows.news
      I vote NO on comp.windows.news

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL; these are not counted as votes and
don't affect the vote count.

If your mail software doesn't indicate your real name, please also
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

	Voter name:

VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes must
be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid; this includes votes generated by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may mean
that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days, contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is
registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of the most
recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will be published
in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted to
news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise edited
copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.  When in
doubt, ask the votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

This Call for Votes is being posted to the following newsgroups:

	news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news

From [email protected] Fri Dec 15 17:16:49 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: [email protected] (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.windows.news
Subject: RESULT: comp.windows.news passes 136:25
Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 15 Dec 1995 17:16:45 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 238
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.windows.news
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:8020 news.groups:179340 comp.windows.news:5799

                                RESULT
           moderated group comp.windows.news passes 136:25

There were 136 YES votes and 25 NO votes, for a total of 161 valid votes.
There was 1 abstain and 4 invalid ballots.

For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.  If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of
news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions about
this proposal should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Warren Lavallee <[email protected]>

The remainder of the RESULT contains:
   Newsgroups Line
   Rationale
   Charter
   Final Voting Acknowledgements

Newsgroups line:
comp.windows.news	The Network extensible Windowing System. (Moderated)

RATIONALE: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news predates Microsoft Windows, but has been overwhelmed
with Microsoft-related postings, which would be more proper in the
comp.os.ms-windows-* hierarchy.  Comp.windows.misc and comp.lang.visual
have undergone moderation votes for the same reason.

CHARTER: comp.windows.news

Comp.windows.news is dedicated to the discussion of the Network
extensible Windowing System developed and marketed by Sun Microsystems
from the mid 80's through the early 90's. Topics include the NeWS
server, NeWS-specific issues relating to the X/NeWS server, the NeWS
dialect of PostScript, and any efforts to produce NeWS-compatible
systems.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: comp.windows.news

Moderator:                      Pat Lashley <[email protected]>
Article submission address:     [email protected]
Administrative contact address: [email protected]

END MODERATOR INFO.

comp.windows.news Final Vote Ack

Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]                                                           Aahz
[email protected]                                             Per Abrahamsen
[email protected]                                              Ambrose Li
[email protected]                                                 Andy Latto
[email protected]                                         Ken Arromdee
[email protected]                                                Ayn Shipley
[email protected]                                        Andreas Leibl
[email protected]                                               Todd Bain SanMillan
[email protected]                                              Bengt Larsson
[email protected]                                                David Berg
[email protected]                                                 B.J. Herbison
[email protected]                                Andreas Borchert
[email protected]                                        Peter G. Bouillon
[email protected]                                            Brian D Sammon
[email protected]                                                   Andrew Carey
[email protected]                                              Carl Schmidtmann
[email protected]                              Jeff Scofield
[email protected]                                              Ed Kolar
[email protected]                                           Charles Lindsey
[email protected]                                     Christopher Samuel
[email protected]                                                Colin Jensen
[email protected]                                   Christopher Lodge Stamper
[email protected]                                Matthew Crosby
[email protected]                                                      Don Croyle
[email protected]                                                      Dave Love
[email protected]                                             Don Ballard
[email protected]                                                     Don Woods
[email protected]                                            Doug McNaught
[email protected]                                              David Shaw
[email protected]                                                 Paul Eggert
[email protected]                                       E. Larry Lidz
[email protected]                                          Harald Fricke
[email protected]                                               Keith Brazington
[email protected]                                      Greg Lindahl
[email protected]                                       Simone Goetz
[email protected]                                        Michael Gold
[email protected]                                                  George Baltz
[email protected]                                          James Harvey
[email protected]                                                 Guenter Hauber
[email protected]                                               Henry Davis
[email protected]                                      Heikki Kantola
[email protected]                                            William R Ward
[email protected]                                                Don Hopkins
[email protected]                                                    Matt Hucke
ijackson@chiark.chu.cam.ac.uk                                      Ian Jackson
jap@interaccess.com                                             Jeff Pleimling
Jeff.Dinkins@Eng.Sun.COM                                          Jeff Dinkins
Jeff.Dunn@Eng.Sun.COM                                                Jeff Dunn
jeffrey.carlyle@bgamug.com                                     Jeffrey Carlyle
jfisk@cleese.apana.org.au                                           James Fisk
joechle@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                    Klaus Joechle
johannes@titan.westfalen.de                                    Johannes Stille
Jon.Abbott@cyberscience.com                                         Jon Abbott
jpc@hammer.msfc.nasa.gov                                       J. Porter Clark
jra@Vantive.COM                                                 Jeremy Allison
jrobert@netcom.com                                                    Bob Boyd
jsk591@lulu.acns.nwu.edu                                       Joshua Kreitzer
juphoff@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu                                        Jeff Uphoff
Kevin.Clarke@Eng.Sun.COM                                          Kevin Clarke
kherron@f10.facts.uky.edu                                       Kenneth Herron
kim@shell.portal.com                                              Kim DeVaughn
klenk@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                       Markus Klenk
kmitchel@direct.ca                                              Kevin Mitchell
Larry.Laskowski@Eng.Sun.COM                                    Larry Laskowski
lee@sq.com                                                           Liam Quin
lemke@hemlock.ncd.com                                               Dave Lemke
lendl@cosy.sbg.ac.at                                               Otmar Lendl
lfirrantello@BIX.com                                                Mick Brown
lhclin@aw.sgi.com                                                    Louis Lin
list-votes@dream.hb.north.de                                  Martin Schr"oder
listerrj@helios.aston.ac.uk                                     Richard Lister
lrosa@telnetwork.it                                                 Luigi Rosa
luriep@tiac.net                                                     Pete Lurie
lvirden@cas.org                                         Larry W. Virden, x2487
martin@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                      Martin Hasch
mattk@stc.comm.mot.com                                             Matt Keller
men@physik.uni-ulm.de                                              S.Meneghini
merkle@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                      Peter Merkle
meru@elycion.geology.ualberta.ca                                  meru p brunn
mhsimkin@panix.com                                              Marc H. Simkin
msc@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com                                           Mark Callow
mue@gsf.de                                                    Bernhard Muenzer
mueller@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                Elisabeth Mueller
mwdaniel@uiuc.edu                                           Michael W. Daniels
nelsonk@ix.netcom.com                                               Ken Nelson
net@cs.tu-berlin.de                                             Oliver Laumann
oschmid@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                    Oliver Schmid
owen@jurassic.Eng.Sun.COM                                        Owen Densmore
patl@asimov.volant.org                                             Pat Lashley
patrick@pacificnet.net                                         Patrick Belknap
Paul.Digby@UK.Sun.COM                                         Paul Digby - PSG
paul@dciem.dnd.ca                                                  Paul Sarkar
paxil@interlog.com                                              Trevor Tymchuk
peglow@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                    Dietmar Peglow
peter@manorcon.demon.co.uk                                      Peter Sullivan
peter@taronga.com                                               Peter da Silva
peterl@tone.whoi.edu                                             Peter Lemmond
peterson@realsys.com                                            Steve Peterson
pgf@space.mit.edu                                                Peter G. Ford
phoffman@proper.com                                               Paul Hoffman
pkeusem@winternet.com                                           Paul Keusemann
pshuang@MIT.EDU                                                     Ping Huang
pw@cacs.usl.edu                                           Pirawat Watanapongse
rali@meitca.com                                            Reto Lichtensteiger
rama@model2an.physik.uni-ulm.de                                  Rainer Mallon
ramesh@scr.siemens.com                                      Ramesh Viswanathan
Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se                                  Raphael Quinet
raphael@mama.research.canon.oz.au                               Andrew Raphael
rdong@math.uci.edu                                     Rui-Tao Dong 董瑞涛
rick@bcm.tmc.edu                                             Richard H. Miller
rjkroege@spinet.Uwaterloo.CA                                       Rob Kroeger
robbie@shorty.com                                             Robbie Honerkamp
robc@flute.candu.aecl.ca                                            Rob Cairns
rodemann@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                  Joerg Rodemann
rolf.schmid@physik.uni-ulm.de                                      Rolf Schmid
rufinus@mbe.ece.wisc.edu                                            J. Rufinus
rxb@excelsior-70.Eng.Sun.COM                                     Rafael Bracho
sarkar@cocko.interactiva.de                               Chandra Mohan Sarkar
sarum@darling.monosys.com                                    David Allan Finch
sbcs@inetnebr.com                                              David McFarling
schmidt@cocko.interactiva.de                                           Stephan
schober@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                   Gernot Schober
shap.wolf@asu.edu                                                 Shapard Wolf
sinclair@dis.strath.ac.uk                                      Duncan Sinclair
smf@rivers.dra.hmg.gb                                             Steve Folkes
stschwei@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                Thomas Schweizer
suobermu@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                 Uwe Obermueller
swg@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                                    Franz Schweiggert
tbr@tfic.bc.ca                                                   Tom Rushworth
tgm@netcom.com                                            Thomas G. McWilliams
tomh@metrics.com                                                  Tom Haapanen
Van.Boughner@Eng.Sun.COM                                       Van A. Boughner
Wes.Mitchell@Eng.Sun.COM                                          Wes Mitchell
widenius@cc.helsinki.fi                                         Risto Widenius
wjschind@mathematik.uni-ulm.de                               Juergen Schindler
xanthian@qualcomm.com                                          Kent Paul Dolan

Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
afabbro@us.itd.umich.edu                                         Andrew Fabbro
balaji@nexus.yorku.ca                                                   Balaji
catambay#m#bill@mmac.is.lmsc.lockheed.com                         Bill the Cat
csaamw@urc.tue.nl                                               Michiel Wijers
dbaker@ccinet.ab.ca                                                David Baker
devuns@alsys.com                                        Olivier Devuns @pulsar
donkiely@bravo.imagi.net                                             Don Kiely
dowding@ai.sri.com                                                John Dowding
dschen@cs.Buffalo.EDU                                            Daniel S Chen
feminist@eskimo.com                                       William Affleck-Asch
huug@telebyte.nl                                              Hugo R. Landsman
jan.coekelberghs@ping.be                                      Jan Coekelberghs
jrm@globalvillag.com                                     John R. MacWilliamson
lancec@cats.ucsc.edu                                             Lance K. Chun
MarkMilem@aol.com                                                   Mark Milem
miller.3@osu.edu                                             David Neal Miller
ptbast@owl.WPI.EDU                                                Pete Bastien
ryang@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu                                     Glen Patrick Ryan
smarry@turing.toronto.edu                                         Smarasderagd
stainles@bga.com                                                  Dwight Brown
stick@shepherd.escalade.com                                           J. Stick
TJASKIEW@us.oracle.com                                  TJASKIEW.US.ORACLE.COM
tlawson@email.univpubs.american.edu                             Todd C. Lawson
w.d.n.foote@reading.ac.uk                                           Bill Foote
wakelyn@pinn.net                                                   Tom Wakelyn

Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
crouchkp@flidh103.delcoelect.com                              Kenneth P Crouch


Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pmstette@colossix.mathematik.uni-ulm.de
   ! No name given
soschmid@colossix.mathematik.uni-ulm.de
   ! No name given
tar3@friday.houston.net                                              Ted Reuss
   ! Conflicting votes
thom@rust.net
   ! No name given
 
USENET FACT: Lurker
A person who reads/browses newsgroups but does not actively post.