From [email protected] Sat Apr 4 02:56:10 1992 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1791 news.groups:38529 comp.sys.next.misc:11284 comp.sys.next.announce:270 comp.sys.next.programmer:2693 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:2946 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Path: rpi!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Ernest Prabhakar) Subject: RFD: comp.sys.next.{advocacy,forsale,hardware} Followup-To: news.groups Sender: [email protected] Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1992 04:41:49 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 99 Request for Discussion: New Groups Proposed under comp.sys.next Followup Discussion in news.groups The general philosophy I am shooting for is to improve the 'signal-to-noise' ratio in various groups for the target audience. Of course, one person's signal is another one's noise, so we want to (roughly) have a new group for every signal that others would consider noise. The biggest problem with adding groups is a fear of cross-posting: people don't want to have to kill a thread several times. This is a touchy issue that won't be settled until the final vote. However, the best way to address this problem is clear, orthogonal charters. So, when you discuss a group, make it clear what charter you are referring to. Pascal did a good job in the last reorg of having well-defined charters for csn.{announce,misc,sysadmin,programmer}. Hopefully we can live up to that standard this time around. These are just initial suggestions. Don't flame me, just tell us what you think. The questions are: Should we create this group? What charter should it have? What name will it have? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Possible new groups to be created (all unmoderated): Format of proposal: - potential names - CHarter - RATionale - ADvantages - DISadvantages **csn.advocacy (csn.discuss, csn.talk, csn.flames, csn.issues) CH: Long/emotional discussions RAT: We can't change human nature, but we can avoid it sometimes :-) AD: clean up csn.misc, give people a forum for that sort of thing DIS: might encourage more abuse **csn.forsale (csn.market, csn.marketplace, csn.commercial) CH: Resale, new software, also jobs and price lists (NeXT and 3rd party) RAT: Such material we know when we want to look at it. AD: Don't have to wade through it. Keeps commercial stuff off main groups. DIS: some new product announcements may fit better on csn.announce **csn.hardware (csn.peripherals, csn.scsi) CH: Questions about drives, modems, memory RAT: Non-buyers are uninterested in them. AD: Currently such stuff is in both csn.sysadmin or csn.misc - coalesce. DIS: Might be confused with misc.forsale; NeXT or 3rd party hardware? **csn.nextpolicy (csn.marketing, csn.od, csn.upgrades, ... :-) CH: Questions/comments/discussion about what NeXT is doing (and why) RAT: We feel a personal stake in what NeXT decides, and want to tell them AD: Lots of interest in it DIS: Identical to csn.flames :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Some other groups that have been suggested, but I don't find well supported. Other people can turn these into serious proposals if they want to: *csn.newapps (announcements, both commercial and free) *csn.graphics (PostScript/Renderman - is this covered in csn.prog or apps?) *csn.{reviews,games, database, sndnmusic, images, and emulators}: well-defined, but not much traffic *csn.newusers (newdevelopers) *csn.news, csn.newproducts (too close to announce) *csn.documentation (too vague?) *csn.networking (IP, SLIP, modems, Internet, UUCP, ISDN) *csn.highered (the vanishing breed :-) *csn.international (foreign languages, foreign dealerships) *csn.comparisons (NeXT vs. Indigo, vs. Sun, vs. Xstations...) *csn.multimedia (isn't everything multi-media on a NeXT? :-) *csn.rtf; csn.newsgrazer: should be in alt -alt.next.newsgrazer (do people -really- care that much?) -alt.steve.jobs.cult :-) Remember alt groups are created under different rules ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Also, don't forget other, related groups which already exist that much current traffic could be diverted to: comp.os.mach comp.lang.postscript comp.arch (CPU architecture, e.g. RISC vs. CISC vs. Intel) misc.jobs misc.forsale ====================================================== Also, somebody else will need do the CallForVotes eventually, as I'm not really savvy with mailing lists. See news.announce.newgroups for details on the process. Well, that should get us started. See you in news.groups. - Ernie Prabhakar -- Ernest N. Prabhakar Caltech High Energy Physics Member, League for Programming Freedom ([email protected]) CaJUN President NeXTMail:[email protected] "...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 5:13a From [email protected] Sat Apr 4 03:23:04 1992 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1902 news.groups:40682 comp.sys.next.misc:14234 comp.sys.next.programmer:3608 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:3534 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Path: rpi!usc!wupost!darwin.sura.net!europa.asd.contel.com!uunet!bounce-back From: [email protected] (Ernest Prabhakar) Subject: CFV: comp.sys.next.{advocacy|hardware|marketplace|richposts|software} Followup-To: poster Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Organization: UUNET Communications Services Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1992 03:11:00 GMT Approved: [email protected] Lines: 95 Call For Votes New Groups Proposed under comp.sys.next Okay, everybody, this is it. Replace the question mark with the appropriate letter indicating your choice (or you can just leave the '?' to abstain), and mail the ballot below back to this address: [email protected] You should be able to do that by merely replying to this post. For each "Proposal," indicate your choice of a yes vote or a no vote by placing a Y or N, respectively, at the beginning of the line. The first character on the line that is either a Y or an N (case doesn't matter) will be counted as your vote on that proposal. You may abstain from any particular vote by deleting the line entirely from the ballot. An invalid line (one not containing a Y or an N before the "Proposal #n:" tag) will be treated as an abstention, as well. The vote period is from March 12th, 1992 until April 10th, 1992, inclusive (Pacific Standard Time). Only votes received during that period will be counted. Each proposal is a separate vote, and must be voted on separately under the Guidelines for Group Creation. Please edit and send in the ballot below. Each ballot will be stripped of all but the From: line and the lines containing valid votes by an automatic process [thanks to [email protected]]; I won't see any comments included. No individual acknowledgments will be mailed (nor, in many cases, will read receipts be sent). I will attempt to post a mass acknowledgement later this month. Comments can be sent to me at: [email protected] Votes sent to that address will be forwarded, as long as it is clear they are votes. A few people sent me votes during the RFD - I assumed they were merely comments; they must now be resent as votes. It's been a pleasure working with y'all. Excelsior! -Ernie P. P.S. The existing groups will continue to exist "as is". --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Y[es],N[o],A[bstain] Group (in alphabetical order) =============================== ? Proposal #1: Create comp.sys.next.advocacy? ? Proposal #2: Create comp.sys.next.hardware? ? Proposal #3: Create comp.sys.next.marketplace? ? Proposal #4: Create comp.sys.next.richposts? ? Proposal #5: Create comp.sys.next.software? =============================== Charters (will be posted periodically to the group): **csn.advocacy This group is a forum for: 1. Discussing of (and providing feedback on) NeXT Policy 2. Speculations concerning NeXTs future 3. Expressing strong, perhaps unpopular opinions 4. Long, philosophical (or unanswerable) discussions **csn.hardware This group is a forum for discussing: 1. 3rd party drives, modems, memory, printers... 2. Questions about NeXT hardware specs 3. Problems using/installing any of the above **csn.marketplace This group is a forum for: 1. Users to sell software/hardware 2. Discussions of "what to buy" 3. Discussions of prices. 4. NeXT-related job offerings [commercial software still goes to csn.announce] **csn.richposts This group is a forum for using mulitmedia news posters (NewsGrazer, MIME, etc.). In general, people should not post rich text to other newsgroups. If the article would be of wider interest, yet for some reason needs to be in RTF, the person can post a pointer to it in the other groups. Large binaries (even if images or sounds) should not be posted. That is what archives are for. **csn.software This group is a forum for discussions about software: 1. Functionality 2. Usage 3. Availability [app development still goes to csn.programmer] From [email protected] Sun Apr 19 22:02:29 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2228 news.groups:48986 comp.sys.next.announce:356 comp.sys.next.misc:17026 comp.sys.next.programmer:4228 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:4047 Path: uunet!uunet!uunet!not-for-mail From: [email protected] (Ernest Prabhakar) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: RESULT: comp.sys.next groups Followup-To: news.groups Date: 15 Apr 1992 12:22:13 -0400 Organization: UUNET Communications Lines: 644 Sender: [email protected] (David C Lawrence) Approved: [email protected] Message-ID:NNTP-Posting-Host: news.UU.NET Final Results New Groups Proposed under comp.sys.next Well, the results of all 488 valid votes have been tallied, and the results are: YES on advocacy, hardware, marketplace, software but NO on richposts To wit: =============================== Proposal #1: Create comp.sys.next.advocacy? YES/NO: 368 to 99...margin 269, percent in favor 78.800857 PASSES Proposal #2: Create comp.sys.next.hardware? YES/NO: 411 to 65...margin 346, percent in favor 86.344538 PASSES Proposal #3: Create comp.sys.next.marketplace? YES/NO: 390 to 81...margin 309, percent in favor 82.802548 PASSES Proposal #4: Create comp.sys.next.richposts? YES/NO: 287 to 171...margin 116, percent in favor 62.663755 NO PASS Proposal #5: Create comp.sys.next.software? YES/NO: 367 to 104...margin 263, percent in favor 77.919321 PASSES =============================== (Due to abstentions, numbers may not add up to 488) Although there was a simple majory for csn.richposts there was NOT the requisite 2-to-1 majority. The USENET guidelines state: "3)AFTER the waiting period, and if there were no serious objections that might invalidate the vote, and if 100 more valid YES/create votes are received than NO/don't create AND at least 2/3 of the total number of valid votes received are in favor of creation, a newgroup control message may be sent out. If the 100 vote margin or 2/3 percentage is not met, the group should not be created." This means that such a group cannot be proposed again until October: "5)A proposal which has failed under point (3) above should not again be brought up for discussion until at least six months have passed >from the close of the vote. This limitation does not apply to proposals which never went to vote." I will write a FAQ explaining this and send it in. I should point out that there were eighteen (18) 'invalid' votes - people did not follow the automatic voting guidelines, either balloting or mailing incorrectly. They are: ---------- A A A A A [email protected] A A A A A Christopher Seline A A A A A Daniel Faken > A A A A A David Williams A A A A A Eric Hermanson A A A A A Eric Murray A A A A A Harry Schmidt A A A A A Jim Ames A A A A A [email protected] A A A A A Mark Henry A A A A A Matt Bezark A A A A A [email protected] A A A A A Richard Commander A A A A A Sean Church A A A A A Steven R. Staton A A A A A Stuart Ritchie A A A A A V. Balaji A A A A A [email protected] ---------- However, since: a) the voting instructions were clear and b) the number is too small to affect any of the results. This is a valid vote. Following is a list of votes. Please send mail to me ([email protected]) or David C. Lawrence if you detect any problems with the vote. Thanks for your participation. If you have any complaints about the outcome, take it to comp.sys.next.advocacy. :-) - Ernie P. ============== A H M R S [Advocacy - Hardware - Marketplace - Richposts - Software] *********************************************************A A A N A A A A N A John G. Myers A A A N A Joseph Malcolm *********************************************************A A N N A A A N N A Chip Rosenthal *********************************************************A A Y A A A A Y A A [email protected] *********************************************************A N Y Y Y A N Y Y Y Jeffrey R Fields *********************************************************A Y A A Y A Y A A Y Gerhard_Moeller A Y A A Y [email protected] *********************************************************A Y A N A A Y A N A Graham Stoney *********************************************************A Y A N Y A Y A N Y Dave Murphy *********************************************************A Y N Y Y A Y N Y Y Archangel *********************************************************A Y Y A Y A Y Y A Y Hiroshi Takahashi A Y Y A Y Jeff Wishnie A Y Y A Y Joanne Brooks A Y Y A Y [email protected] *********************************************************A Y Y N Y A Y Y N Y Alex Chaffee A Y Y N Y Catriona Stadtler A Y Y N Y Paul Woods A Y Y N Y Roger Rosner *********************************************************A Y Y Y Y A Y Y Y Y Hubert Delahaye A Y Y Y Y Peter Murray A Y Y Y Y William Gilbert *********************************************************N A A N N N A A N N [email protected] *********************************************************N A Y A Y N A Y A Y patrick carnahan phillips *********************************************************N N N N N N N N N N Bill E. Eickmeier N N N N N Brian Glaeske N N N N N Carl Rigney N N N N N Chris Bradley N N N N N Christopher Ward N N N N N Daniel Veditz N N N N N Ed McGuire N N N N N Eric Marshall N N N N N Eric P. Scott N N N N N Ernst Kloecker N N N N N Glen Foster N N N N N James W. McKelvey N N N N N Jason Holloway N N N N N Joe St Sauver N N N N N Karl Kraft N N N N N Michael Amirault N N N N N Peter Phillips N N N N N Roland Kaltefleiter N N N N N Tom Limoncelli N N N N N [email protected] N N N N N mehta *********************************************************N N N N Y N N N N Y [email protected] *********************************************************N N N Y N N N N Y N Bill Owens N N N Y N [email protected] N N N Y N Tim McLarnan *********************************************************N N Y A N N N Y A N Shawn Broderick *********************************************************N N Y N N N N Y N N Daniel L Grillo N N Y N N Eric A. Litman N N Y N N Ken Fortenberry N N Y N N Nader Nafissi N N Y N N Phillip Tokumaru *********************************************************N N Y N Y N N Y N Y [email protected] *********************************************************N N Y Y N N N Y Y N Brad Vaughan N N Y Y N H. Scott Roy N N Y Y N Terry H. Tautz N N Y Y N WiseGuy N N Y Y N [email protected] *********************************************************N Y A N A N Y A N A Hardy *********************************************************N Y A N N N Y A N N Eric Engstrom *********************************************************N Y A N Y N Y A N Y blm%[email protected] *********************************************************N Y N N N N Y N N N Don Deal N Y N N N Robert Macfarlane *********************************************************N Y N N Y N Y N N Y Arne Henrik Juul N Y N N Y David Megginson N Y N N Y Geoff Bronner N Y N N Y Mark Horn N Y N N Y Timothy VanFosson N Y N N Y [email protected] *********************************************************N Y N Y N N Y N Y N Astral Phil N Y N Y N Steve Penton N Y N Y N Steven M. Boker *********************************************************N Y N Y Y N Y N Y Y David Ross N Y N Y Y Jan Willem de Bruijn N Y N Y Y Real life? Ha! N Y N Y Y [email protected] *********************************************************N Y Y A Y N Y Y A Y Davor Barcan N Y Y A Y Tom Tucker *********************************************************N Y Y N N N Y Y N N Michael Friedel N Y Y N N [email protected] N Y Y N N [email protected] N Y Y N N [email protected] *********************************************************N Y Y N Y N Y Y N Y Carl Lowenstein N Y Y N Y Casimir J Palowitch N Y Y N Y Larry Rosenstein N Y Y N Y Matthias Boehringer N Y Y N Y Nathan Loofbourrow N Y Y N Y Rich Kaul N Y Y N Y Roberto Arrocha N Y Y N Y Scott M. Stark N Y Y N Y Sebastian Mix N Y Y N Y Thomas Tschannen N Y Y N Y [email protected] N Y Y N Y [email protected] N Y Y N Y [email protected] N Y Y N Y wayne beech *********************************************************N Y Y Y N N Y Y Y N Andy Lee N Y Y Y N Ian Duncan N Y Y Y N Jay Sekora N Y Y Y N Laurent Amon N Y Y Y N Matthew M. Stecker N Y Y Y N Tim Dawson *********************************************************N Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y Arnaud Weber N Y Y Y Y Carrick Talmadge N Y Y Y Y Dave Meyer N Y Y Y Y Eric Fronberg N Y Y Y Y Hades N Y Y Y Y John Bartley N Y Y Y Y Jonathan Kruger N Y Y Y Y Lyle Parkyn N Y Y Y Y Mark Thomsen N Y Y Y Y Mike Basinger N Y Y Y Y My Account N Y Y Y Y Robert Parkhill N Y Y Y Y Tim Buck N Y Y Y Y William Swats N Y Y Y Y William Zook III N Y Y Y Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y A A N A Y A A N A Michael Sanderson Y A A N A Pearlman *********************************************************Y A A Y Y Y A A Y Y Ivan Vesely *********************************************************Y A Y A A Y A Y A A [email protected] *********************************************************Y A Y N A Y A Y N A Steven D. Borrelli *********************************************************Y A Y Y A Y A Y Y A Mark Nathan *********************************************************Y N A Y N Y N A Y N Jim Blevins Y N A Y N [email protected] *********************************************************Y N N N N Y N N N N Bruce Ediger Y N N N N David C. Copley Y N N N N Jacob Gore Y N N N N John J Kuszewski Y N N N N Peter Karbaliotis Y N N N N Sean Eric Fagan *********************************************************Y N N Y N Y N N Y N David Norton Y N N Y N Oliver Johns Y N N Y N [email protected] Y N N Y N pierce cantrell *********************************************************Y N N Y Y Y N N Y Y Thomas Marchioro *********************************************************Y N Y A N Y N Y A N Alex Dommasch *********************************************************Y N Y N N Y N Y N N Bryon Nevis Y N Y N N Dirk Karis Y N Y N N [email protected] Y N Y N N Pascal Gaudette Y N Y N N Perry Caro Y N Y N N Robert D. La Ferla *********************************************************Y N Y N Y Y N Y N Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y N Y Y N Y N Y Y N Dirk Koeppen Y N Y Y N Don Yackman Y N Y Y N Gavriel State Y N Y Y N Nick Christopher Y N Y Y N Paul Verket Y N Y Y N james scott *********************************************************Y Y A A Y Y Y A A Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y A Y Y Y Y A Y Y Scott Meyer *********************************************************Y Y N N N Y Y N N N Andreas Haug Y Y N N N Glenn Reid Y Y N N N [email protected] Y Y N N N [email protected] Y Y N N N [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y N N Y Y Y N N Y Christopher D Audley Y Y N N Y Denise Blakeley Y Y N N Y Dennis W. Ruck Y Y N N Y Erik C. Sowa Y Y N N Y Jiro Nakamura Y Y N N Y Mark Linimon Y Y N N Y Nigel Metheringham Y Y N N Y Richard H. Miller Y Y N N Y Stuart L Labovitz Y Y N N Y [email protected] Y Y N N Y [email protected] Y Y N N Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y N Y N Y Y N Y N David Griffith Y Y N Y N Mike Park Y Y N Y N Paul J. Sanchez Y Y N Y N William Herndon Y Y N Y N denis norton Y Y N Y N [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y N Y Y Y Y N Y Y Charles Robinson Y Y N Y Y Day Y Y N Y Y Hironobu Suzuki Y Y N Y Y Ian Rae Y Y N Y Y Miriam Golden *********************************************************Y Y Y A A Y Y Y A A [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y A N Y Y Y A N Doug DeJulio *********************************************************Y Y Y A Y Y Y Y A Y Andrew Loewenstern Y Y Y A Y Brett Bullock Y Y Y A Y Christian_Paulus Y Y Y A Y Dwight Everhart Y Y Y A Y Ivan Strand Y Y Y A Y Jeff Buske Y Y Y A Y M.L Demsey Y Y Y A Y Martin David Frankel Y Y Y A Y Matt Rollefson Y Y Y A Y Michael Declerck 841-1115 Y Y Y A Y Randy McCaskill Y Y Y A Y Richard Raubertas Y Y Y A Y Russell Schulz Y Y Y A Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y N N Y Y Y N N Jayson Adams Y Y Y N N Kelley Wittmeyer Y Y Y N N Richard O'Neill Y Y Y N N Russell Selph Y Y Y N N Tony Zamora Y Y Y N N William Lewis Y Y Y N N [email protected] Y Y Y N N marcel%[email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y N Y Adam Smith Y Y Y N Y Alex Dahl Y Y Y N Y Angelo Codevilla Y Y Y N Y Bill Carson Y Y Y N Y Carsten Rathsack Y Y Y N Y Chris Barrus Y Y Y N Y Craig Artley Y Y Y N Y DAVID HALE Y Y Y N Y Dale LaFountain Y Y Y N Y Dan Danz Y Y Y N Y Daniel Miles Kehoe Y Y Y N Y Dara Staal Y Y Y N Y David Christian Homan Y Y Y N Y Denis Lynch Y Y Y N Y Federico Heinz Y Y Y N Y Gregory A Yut Y Y Y N Y Heng-Yi Lin Y Y Y N Y Irving_Wolfe Y Y Y N Y Jens Nystuen Y Y Y N Y Jim De Arras Y Y Y N Y John Robison Y Y Y N Y Joseph Chin Y Y Y N Y Kenneth Nelson Y Y Y N Y Larry Cordner Y Y Y N Y Louis A. Mamakos Y Y Y N Y M Carling Y Y Y N Y Mathias Pruestel Y Y Y N Y Michael R. Douglas Y Y Y N Y Nothing to hide Y Y Y N Y Payman Parastaran Y Y Y N Y Peter J. Park Y Y Y N Y Peter Zyhlarz Y Y Y N Y Rainer Staringer Y Y Y N Y Ralf E. Stranzenbach Y Y Y N Y Rich Plevin Y Y Y N Y Richard Kidder Y Y Y N Y Richard Palmer Y Y Y N Y Robert Stabl Y Y Y N Y Robert Wong Y Y Y N Y Rohit Khare Y Y Y N Y Roy SeGuine Y Y Y N Y Royce Howland Y Y Y N Y Soo Lee Y Y Y N Y Tero Nieminen Y Y Y N Y Thomas J. Baker Y Y Y N Y Timothy Van Sant Y Y Y N Y Todd M. Swan Y Y Y N Y Todd Nathan Y Y Y N Y Volker Safran Y Y Y N Y Zeke Koch Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] Y Y Y N Y [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y Y A Y Y Y Y A David Li Y Y Y Y A Mark Joseph Herbster Y Y Y Y A [email protected] Y Y Y Y A [email protected] Y Y Y Y A [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y N Charles G. Bennett Y Y Y Y N Charles L. Perkins Y Y Y Y N Eric Raible Y Y Y Y N Garance A Drosehn Y Y Y Y N Michael Kary Y Y Y Y N Vesa P Kautto Y Y Y Y N [email protected] *********************************************************Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y [email protected] Y Y Y Y Y Adam Bentley Y Y Y Y Y Alan L. Batongbacal Y Y Y Y Y Alex Blakemore Y Y Y Y Y Andreas Gradert Y Y Y Y Y Austin Dahl